Master Server Rules Rehosted and Updated

[nax]

Please visit https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9316 for more information. Doxxing and IRL Threat rule was added in light of several master bans that were discretionary in the past.

[Mysyk]

Dangerous moment. What is really Doxxing? What are differences between it and asking personal questions?

[Ænima]

Dangerous moment. What is really Doxxing? What are differences between it and asking personal questions?

“Doxxing” generally refers to posting very personal details about someone that could potentially make them vulnerable to real-life harassment. Details such as links to their Facebook or Twitter account, their real name, address, etc.

It’s a very immature intimidation tactic that has no place in a tight-knit gaming community like Zandronum.

[Mysyk]

Thanks. I have big questions. I will create another thread. But it will be controversial and with drama. I hope to get constructive thoughts though.

[grrfield]

Dear people of Zandronum,

I have (had) several servers up and running on my Raspberry Pi at home. Had, until now. Watakid banned my servers a couple of days ago. He said I was breaking the "Master Server Rules" I have carefully read those rules (couple of times to be exact). I really don't see where i did break the rules.

To start with:

I always liked the Doom community and I never will and have had any intention to hurt, abuse, misbehave or whatever else things that are not considered fun. The only thing I want is "players on my servers". If you don't treat your guests good and honest, they will turn on you and never come back. Fundamentally there is no reason for me to misbehave in any way. I even set up a forum for my servers (http://grrfield.duckdns.org). I do this for the FUN of it.......not to harass people or whatever....

If you are still interested, here is the story.

We all know the guy that lives with the name "Hobo_Filistyn". He has been an nuisance couple of years ago. I banned him, expelled him many times. I tried some automated scripts to get him of my servers (by max-someone if forgot the name of). All with no avail, because he uses VPN stuff and hence a changing ip and name each time. Jezus, this guy was a real pain in the ass. Then he left in thin air for over a year. Good thing!!

A couple of months ago he reappeared on my servers. It even took me a couple of weeks to figure out that it was HIM (actually because he told me). Since he was not trolling and not even being a dick by taking hp when there are people almost dead, ..... you know the drill. I decided not to ban him, because i could live with his behaviour and secondly banning him would be a TOTAL disaster for the health of my servers. Weeks went by and nothing special happened. So far so good.

Until now,....

Your server admin entered my server and asked me to give the ip('s) of Hobo. I don't know them, cause I don't log my server activity regularly or closely (only in the case of troubles). And secondly I did not WANT to give them to a guy with the name WATAKID. Not because he is server admin here, but because anyone can take the nick "Watakid". You are cautious people, I am too.

Then he said something about changing the masterban to zero and some other stuff that i truly don't understand. There was a Pi, there was google and there was Tor who helped me with some problems i had to install and maintain my servers on my raspberry. I did not know where he was getting at.

But now i realize,

He banned my servers!

Well done Watakid. Your personal CRUSADE against this guy has taken you so far that you had to ban me to get what? I see Zandronum dying every day a bit more, and you are no help, really... Such a shame, such a shame...This community, all this work done, deserves more than that. I only try to do well and to behave like a decent person in relation to whomever I encounter in my life. You did not decide likewise.

[Marcaek]

you could have contacted masterserver staff at any time instead of getting on with this self-righteous tirade.

the zan community is not being harmed by keeping notorious problem individuals out, nor by not tolerating server clusters which harbor such harmful people and whom are clearly not competent enough to deal with the staff, it would have been MUCH easier to simply pm wata or nax on the forums instead of writing several paragraphs in an appeal to make the staff look bad because you can't do your job well

[grrfield]

well, ok, never waste a good crusade filled with personal hatred then.
gl

[WaTaKiD]

I really don't see where i did break the rules.

https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=774
"Server Care
Your servers are the houses that make the community. Both the community and staff would appreciate it if you took care of your servers and moderated them accordingly. If your servers condone unacceptable behavior, your server(s) will be removed from the master list by the staff, and might also be disliked by the community."

Allowing a master banned user to play on a server that enforces the master banlist is not moderating properly, and thus condones unacceptable behavior. Therefore, your servers were put on the block list.

And secondly I did not WANT to give them to a guy with the name WATAKID. Not because he is server admin here, but because anyone can take the nick "Watakid". You are cautious people, I am too.

This is why when we first spoke, I asked if you had a contact method outside of game, so that we may have a more reliable method of communication, rather than hoping to catch you on one of your servers. I did end up signing up at your forums after that conversation, but it has yet to be approved.

Then he said something about changing the masterban to zero and some other stuff that i truly don't understand.

I said that your servers will have to change sv_enforcemasterbanlist from 1 to 0. By doing so, your servers will allow anyone on the master banlist to connect to your server, rather than denying them. It will also, upon a user attempting to connect to your server, give them a warning box telling them that the server does not enforce the master banlist.

I did not know where he was getting at.

At the end of our second conversation, I broke it down to 3 simple options, which I will copy paste from a logfile generated from the demo:

WaTaKiD: 1: we ask for his ip and its provided
WaTaKiD: 2: we ask for his ip, its not provided, owner changes servers to not enforce the master banlist, and users get a warning box upo
WaTaKiD: upon attempting to connect to the server
WaTaKiD: 3: we ask for his ip, its not provided, servers remain enforcing the master banlist, and we blacklist them so they no longer sho
WaTaKiD: show up in a server browser

Your personal CRUSADE [...]

My duty as a Master Server Admin for Zandronum is to enforce the master server rules and ban those who break them. As such, it is well within reason to ask server owners for assistance in performing my duty, especially those who take the health of their servers seriously, as you said at the end of our first conversation.

[Leonard]

I don't know them, cause I don't log my server activity regularly or closely

WaTaKiD: 1: we ask for his ip and its provided
WaTaKiD: 2: we ask for his ip, its not provided, owner changes servers to not enforce the master banlist, and users get a warning box upo
WaTaKiD: upon attempting to connect to the server
WaTaKiD: 3: we ask for his ip, its not provided, servers remain enforcing the master banlist, and we blacklist them so they no longer sho
WaTaKiD: show up in a server browser

So was grrfield blacklisted because he simply didn't save a log of his servers?

[WaTaKiD]

I don't know them, cause I don't log my server activity regularly or closely

WaTaKiD: 1: we ask for his ip and its provided
WaTaKiD: 2: we ask for his ip, its not provided, owner changes servers to not enforce the master banlist, and users get a warning box upo
WaTaKiD: upon attempting to connect to the server
WaTaKiD: 3: we ask for his ip, its not provided, servers remain enforcing the master banlist, and we blacklist them so they no longer sho
WaTaKiD: show up in a server browser

So was grrfield blacklisted because he simply didn't save a log of his servers?

Perhaps my saying "its not provided" is too harsh, and what I rather meant was more along the lines of "the server owner refuses to provide". I assure you that we aren't going to block list servers because the server owner happened to not have logging enabled. We would instead ask the server owner to enable logging, and help them set it up if requested.

[grrfield]

Okay, I let sink some stuff, reconsidered somethings that have been said, including things i have said and done. This will be the last time I speak. Up to you to decide. Do i want my servers back? i dunno, i might have lost interest. Do i give a damn: YES, for honor i speak.

I'm not gonna stick to some fragments of conversations that lack context, i rather discuss the things how i observed and felt them.

1. You have more information than i have (i see the names of people using zandro servers in doomseeker, you must have the ip's too). Why asking me for a specific ip that I don't have myself? (i have no logs. I only start using logs when having some trouble, but thas has been more than couple of years now). Maybe i should have been the one asking myself why this guys still hasn't got a ban.
2. you fail to ban a vile, but you managed to ban someone who enjoys doom and respects Zandronum, well done. Strange thing still is that maybe the only guy that i have banned from my servers myself,..... was hobo himself, cause you guys were not able too. And now you blame me? Come on!
3. What's the point in giving the ip's, the guy changes faster from ip than i can blink my eyes? how can i provide logs that do not exist, ip's from people from which i dont know whether it's hobo or not. he is not always telling me, sometimes i know, sometimes i guess, sometimes he tells me. As long as there is peace i can live with it.
4. so i still believe in this personal crusade, because you still were not able to nail him down. And he is laughing with you. The first time he came back on my server and i recognised him, i panicked, but luckily decided to let him where he was. The result was peace on my servers. You are still haunting, not him, but your own ghost. You think you might find a solution in strict adherence to the "rules" (you will always find a stick if you really want to beat someone, not?). I have a rather peacemaking mind about the matter, which has been quiet successfull up till now. But you made me pay the price for this behaviour, because i did not want to participate in that crusade (yeah, i keep calling it a crusade, i know).
5. you can't deal with the guy yourself, you take it personal and blame me for not having my shit together (Marcaek). You are at least reversing some responsabilities here.
○ i do have my shit together, cause if have no troubles on my server
○ what's the point in no longer having the masterbanlist in function, if you are not able to exclude the guy yourselves
○ if you ask me for information you can obtain easily yourself, may I find it weird?
6. I Could have used other ways of communication. Did i overreact by posting it in the open rather than pm? Probably , but i was not having the feeling that it would make much difference anyway, and yes i was angry. Can't I be angry or is it just your prerogative to feel mistreated?
7. You tried to register on my forum. This one I take for my account. Some bot has/is been spamming my forum and i got 50 registrations per day. I just deleted them all without investigating whether some of them were legit or not. My bad. I blocked further registration.

[Marcaek]

Why asking me for a specific ip that I don't have myself?

Strange thing still is that maybe the only guy that i have banned from my servers myself,..... was hobo himself,

[WaTaKiD]

This will be the last time I speak. Up to you to decide. Do i want my servers back? i dunno, i might have lost interest. Do i give a damn: YES, for honor i speak.

It's up to you whether you appeal to have your servers removed from the block list or not. You can either enable logging so that you can provide us with a master banned user's ip should we request it, change sv_enforcemasterbanlist from 1 to 0 on all of your servers from now on, or leave things as they are and remain on the block list.

1. You have more information than i have (i see the names of people using zandro servers in doomseeker, you must have the ip's too).

We don't have full control over everyone's servers. To obtain a user's ip, we need to check the server logs either by ourselves if one of us has access to the server, or by asking someone who does.

Why asking me for a specific ip that I don't have myself? (i have no logs.

You gave no indication that you did not log your servers during either of our conversations, otherwise I would have asked you to do so. However, since you said you take the health of your servers seriously, the thought didn't cross my mind.

I only start using logs when having some trouble, but thas has been more than couple of years now).

A master server admin reported a master banned user on your servers and asked for their ip. That would've been a good time to start logging your servers.

Maybe i should have been the one asking myself why this guys still hasn't got a ban.

Because you chose to harbor him instead of help us.

2. you fail to ban a vile, but you managed to ban someone who enjoys doom and respects Zandronum, well done.

Your respect for Zandronum only went as far as your servers instead of Zandronum as a whole, when you chose to help him evade, which in turn contributed to our failing to ban him.

3. What's the point in giving the ip's, the guy changes faster from ip than i can blink my eyes?

There would be no point in having rules if we didn't enforce them. Rewarding bad behavior by giving up and letting them have their way only empowers them to continue and do worse. If we cannot stop them, then at the very least we can slow them down.

But you made me pay the price for this behaviour, because i did not want to participate in that crusade [...]

I am simply following procedure, because as I stated before, I am an admin, punishing those who do wrong.

5. you can't deal with the guy yourself [...]

Which is why we asked you for help.

what's the point in no longer having the masterbanlist in function, if you are not able to exclude the guy yourselves

As I previously stated:

I said that your servers will have to change sv_enforcemasterbanlist from 1 to 0. By doing so, your servers will allow anyone on the master banlist to connect to your server, rather than denying them. It will also, upon a user attempting to connect to your server, give them a warning box telling them that the server does not enforce the master banlist.

It doesn't make sense for your servers to enforce the master banlist if you're not going to actually enforce those bans, and instead let a banned user freely play on your servers. Whereas if your servers do not enforce the master banlist, then you can have all the evaders, cheaters, and other banned users you want on your servers, and we will have no reason to ask for your help, because you chose to help them instead and we can see where your loyalties lie.

[Marcaek]

The proper reaction would have been "how do i fix this" not "who do i blame for this"

[grrfield]

I don't wanna make this discussion babylonical, but my bad. I always thought that the enforcement of the banlist was automagic and that otherwise i would not appear on the list by default. i did not put it on nor of. There is just no line in my startup script that says sv_enforcemasterbanlist 1 nor 0.

it looks like:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/bash
(bash /home/pi/doom/scripts/setdelayedcvars.sh)&
trap "" 2
/home/pi/doom/zandronum-server \
-iwad /home/pi/doom/iwads/doom2.wad \
-file /home/pi/doom/pwads/jenesis.wad \
-file /home/pi/doom/pwads/complex-doom.v27a4.pk3 \
-file /home/pi/doom/pwads/newtextcolours_260.pk3 \
-file /home/pi/doom/pwads/hpbar-v15.pk3 \
-file /home/pi/doom/pwads/cd-muhammad-v4.wad \
-port 10667 \
+sv_maxlives 0 \
-host \
+alwaysapplydmflags 1 \
-skill 4 \
+survival 1 \
+sv_hostemail "" \
+map MAP01 \
+sv_maprotation 0 \
+sv_randommaprotation 0 \
+sv_motd "http://grrfield.duckdns.org \n Just do it!" \
+sv_hostname "[Flemish Doom Servers] :: http://grrfield.duckdns.org >> Complex Jenesis - only ammo/no hp" \
+sv_website "" \
+sv_password "" \
+sv_forcepassword 0 \
+sv_joinpassword "" \
+sv_forcejoinpassword 0 \
+sv_rconpassword scrambledeggs (i removed it to be clear) \
+sv_broadcast true \
+sv_masterip master.zandronum.com:15300\
+sv_updatemaster true \
+sv_maxclients 10 \
+sv_maxplayers 10 \
+sv_smartaim 2 \
+cd_ammorespawn 1 \
+cd_thruweapons 1 \
+dmflags 7405572 \
+dmflags2 8388864 \
+zadmflags 16 \
+compatflags 64 \
+zacompatflags 0 \
+lmsallowedweapons 0 \
+lmsspectatorsettings 0 \
+sv_afk2spec 0 \
+sv_coop_damagefactor 1 \
+sv_defaultdmflags 1 \
+sv_showlauncherqueries false \
+sv_showwarnings false \
+ sv_timestamp true \
-useip 192.168.0.163\

So is it on or off in this case?

[k4r4t3k4n4k4s]

My interpretation is that Zandronum standard settings would apply if not setting the value. I can't say what that is but you should be able to check by checking sv_enforcemasterbanlist variable after starting the server

Wiki https://wiki.zandronum.com/Master_Server states that
sv_enforcemasterbanlist
If true, then players banned from the master will also be banned from this server. According to current policy, servers that set this to false will be hidden from the master (as if sv_updatemaster were false)

https://wiki.zandronum.com/Server_Variables says its enabled by default but the versioning points to Zandronum 1.1.1 so again - what the standard is in the latest version is unclear.

[Leonard]

I'd like to vouch for grrfield here and say that I have been playing his servers over a couple years now.
I sometimes play along with him and occasionally talk to him.
grrfield always seemed like a calm person to me and I have never seen him get angry at anything until now which I'm guessing is why he overreacted a bit by taking this issue so personally with Watakid.
His servers have always been of good quality (way better than some things you may see in doomseeker nowadays in my opinion) and he's clearly a minimum passionate about what he does.
The guy set up an entire forum on his pi to discuss his servers and suggest things to host and even provides a download link for each wad he hosts.
I've seen watakid himself play on these servers so even he can't deny their quality (which would be kind of hypocrite if you think about it).
It would be very sad to see these servers gone.

I assure you that we aren't going to block list servers because the server owner happened to not have logging enabled. We would instead ask the server owner to enable logging, and help them set it up if requested.

You gave no indication that you did not log your servers during either of our conversations, otherwise I would have asked you to do so. However, since you said you take the health of your servers seriously, the thought didn't cross my mind.

Reading these two statements, the only logical conclusion that can be reached is that this was simply a misunderstanding.
Unless grrfield won't or has stated before that he wouldn't start logging, doesn't it mean that there is no further reason to keep his servers blacklisted?

you chose to harbor him
[...]
when you chose to help him evade

I really don't like when people do this sort of association thing.
grrfield never said that he didn't want you to keep masterbanning hobo and he even banned him from his own servers in the past.
What did he do? Did he supply him with a vpn IP? Did he withhold information to you? There's no information to be withheld as grrfield doesn't have the IPs because as discussed he didn't log them.
The worst he's done is not ban hobo this one time from his own server after he admitted who he was (which happens once in a blue moon by the way) and overreacted over this issue.
That doesn't mean that grrfield wants hobo to keep evading his masterban, merely that he didn't think banning hobo from his own server at the time was necessary.
To prove my point:

You have more information than i have (i see the names of people using zandro servers in doomseeker, you must have the ip's too)

Of course now he knows better and should enable logging to not be blacklisted.
On that note I'd like to talk about this rule:

"Your servers are the houses that make the community. Both the community and staff would appreciate it if you took care of your servers and moderated them accordingly. If your servers condone unacceptable behavior, your server(s) will be removed from the master list by the staff, and might also be disliked by the community."

Allowing a master banned user to play on a server that enforces the master banlist is not moderating properly, and thus condones unacceptable behavior. Therefore, your servers were put on the block list.

This rule seems a bit dumb, what is "moderating properly" and according to whom?
grrfield still made sure that hobo wasn't disturbing his server before he decided not to deal with him and I'm sure that if anyone had complained on his forum about hobo doing anything bad he would have ended up banning him again anyways.
Perhaps the rule is lax on purpose but in this case, as I just argued, grrfield didn't just let his server rot in hell when hobo returned.

[nax]

I'm humoring discussion on this thread for the sole fact that its record may be useful as precedent for other server owners in regards to the clean house policy. But I will not tolerate grandstanding any longer to this effect, Leonard. This is not a new rule and its applications are discussed prior to enforcement, so discussion of its general enforcement is not a topic for debate. Any issues with the rules themselves can be addressed in the proper forum and in the proper topic from this point on and only the specific instance for grrfield will be allowed until the discussion has finished upon which the topic will be split and logged under the master server forum.

[WaTaKiD]

So is it on or off in this case?

It would be on. However, after recent discussion, we've decided that servers that do not enforce the master banlist will instead be hidden from view. This means that the 3 options I mentioned before are actually down to only the first and third. So if you want your servers to be visible, then you must comply with our requests when we ask for your assistance regarding master banned users on your servers.

I will also point out that I was mistaken in saying that there is a warning box upon attempting to join a server that does not enforce the master banlist, because there isn't one. I'm not sure where I got the impression that there was one, but I do apologize for my misinformation.

I've seen watakid himself play on these servers so even he can't deny their quality [...]

Indeed I have played on and enjoyed those servers, from the settings intended for the map pack (if the map pack is not meant to be played with jump or crouch, then those are disabled), the simplicity of the wad list (lack of add-on wads), to the ever-changing map packs, most of which I've not played before, so I can experience something new.

I assure you that we aren't going to block list servers because the server owner happened to not have logging enabled. We would instead ask the server owner to enable logging, and help them set it up if requested.

You gave no indication that you did not log your servers during either of our conversations, otherwise I would have asked you to do so. However, since you said you take the health of your servers seriously, the thought didn't cross my mind.

Reading these two statements, the only logical conclusion that can be reached is that this was simply a misunderstanding.
Unless grrfield won't or has stated before that he wouldn't start logging, doesn't it mean that there is no further reason to keep his servers blacklisted?

As I mentioned above with unenforced servers being hidden, unless he complies with our requests, his servers will remain on the block list.

you chose to harbor him
[...]
when you chose to help him evade

I really don't like when people do this sort of association thing.
grrfield never said that he didn't want you to keep masterbanning hobo and he even banned him from his own servers in the past.
What did he do? Did he supply him with a vpn IP? Did he withhold information to you? There's no information to be withheld as grrfield doesn't have the IPs because as discussed he didn't log them.
The worst he's done is not ban hobo this one time from his own server after he admitted who he was (which happens once in a blue moon by the way) and overreacted over this issue.
That doesn't mean that grrfield wants hobo to keep evading his masterban, merely that he didn't think banning hobo from his own server at the time was necessary.
To prove my point:

You have more information than i have (i see the names of people using zandro servers in doomseeker, you must have the ip's too)

Of course now he knows better and should enable logging to not be blacklisted.

We asked for his help and he asked for time to talk to filystyn and "see for himself". He was given plenty of time but when it came down to it, he refused to cooperate with us, because dealing with filystyn is a difficult undertaking and he was understandably worried about what would happen to his servers should he make an enemy of someone who obviously shouldn't be there in the first place. Moderating servers is not easy, especially when dealing with a dangerous individual, but two wrongs don't make a right. Rules are meant to be followed, and grrfield's actions would've had consequences regardless of which side he chose.
His servers being put on the block list is the result of the path he has chosen, it's up to him whether he wants to stick with it, or give the other route a try and see how it goes.

[mifu]

I would like to point out that the server host could of used the playerinfo command if he was still in the server at the time to get a ip or perhaps maybe look on the servers console on the server itself if it goes that far. I personally think grrfield can undo these actions if he follows the recomendations set by watakid.

They are pretty easy to do after all and anyone here would help you in doing so if need be.