Is the Old holding back progress?

[Strych6]

You people need to calm down and learn to try new things, it won't take your OS virginity away.

Actually, OS duelers would be the ones migrating. So, with this low count of dedicated players, there will be loss. Erotica or not.

Why would they migrate when they can still play the same stuff? Wait why are people thinking that there is a push for complete eradication of OS? Nobody is saying "Take down all Duel32, nobody is allowed to play OS". Jwar also mention similar things, so I'm not sure why people are jumping to conclusions.

True, the end of OSD would never come in one night, but the amount of OS duelers is so small that any sort of division will be felt. We are the resource the movement would require
It's whatever. The first challenge is making a NS mapset. The second challenge is making it well. If people can cook up anything that pars with Duel32, I will be impressed and I'd even welcome it. Not particularly easy, as its a compilation unrestricted by time

[Razgriz]

I don't understand why there has to be any sort of division. This is a made up worst-case scenario. Nobody is forcing anybody to play anything. If anything, OS players are forcing people who don't particularly care for the limitations of OS to play with their limits, which aren't even OS anyway (turn auto-switch back on, give me back no-crosshair servers, hitscan distance limits, add blockmap back in, etc). For the record, I enjoy both NOS and OS though I don't really care much for NS.

Re: maps, probably best to start with a small compilation, with a specific aim (NOS or NS), with maps that have been played often by multiple people to determine proper amounts of skill required to be considered for such a pack, balance, tricks, etc. It probably wouldn't be that hard to do, just time consuming.

On top of this, to what aspect are OS player base so small against? NOS? And if it's so small as you make it seem, then feeling the division would be very miniscule if not non-existent in comparison to a much larger group. You'd begin feeling real division when a large group is severed in half, not when a group of 10 or 20 is pulled in half.

[Absolute Zero]

Wait why are people thinking that there is a push for complete eradication of OS?

Read the thread title. That is exactly what it implies to be about.

To the OP: try other audiences for your rebalancement mod or whatever it was, there is demand for that. Get Out of the Bubble and Burst It.

[Arctangent]

Read the thread title. That is exactly what it implies to be about.

I don't really seem any implications of destroying the old in the title. It more implies this exact attitude of old vs new is the issue; there's absolutely no reason to be all of one side, and it focuses more on how clinging to the old is stagnating progress.

I suppose the effect on the other hand would be losing what really makes Doom Doom completely and avoiding valid design choices simply because they've shown up in older maps / mods / what have you.

[Ivan]

Why is NOS considered a mod? Are you people insane? You know what, forget it, this community is doomed beyond relief.

[Razgriz]

Wait why are people thinking that there is a push for complete eradication of OS?

Read the thread title. That is exactly what it implies to be about.

To the OP: try other audiences for your rebalancement mod or whatever it was, there is demand for that. Get Out of the Bubble and Burst It.

Arctangent basically said it, but there is nothing about getting rid of OS, unless you think that introducing a new concept to an old and otherwise generally boring standard would cause a huge break (which I doubt). I read the entire topic, and the title. Did you read the topic? How many lines did it take before you decided to jump to a conclusion without finishing it?

[Uwe L. Bendoverson]

Disabling Item Respawn is one of my pet peeves when it comes to oldschool DM. I prefer AltDeath rules, I like to be able to have map and item control open as a strategy when my aim alone isn't cutting it. Otherwise, things slow down and get boring later in the match due to a complete lack of ammo, plus it's frustrating as fuck not being able to have a chance to recover your health.

Item Respawn on or bust. Item respawn is still oldschool, because it was available in Vanilla Doom via the -altdeath parameter. Also, I do like Freelook.

When I set up my servers, it's usually a middle ground. Mostly newschool, but a few oldschool Compat/DMFlags on.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Wait why are people thinking that there is a push for complete eradication of OS?

Read the thread title. That is exactly what it implies to be about.

To the OP: try other audiences for your rebalancement mod or whatever it was, there is demand for that. Get Out of the Bubble and Burst It.

That is definitely not what the title even suggests. For clarification (not just you but for many others), I'm not pushing for some eradication of 'OS' duel as an entity. What I am suggesting is that perhaps at least there can be some sort of effort to stop clinging onto the old mindset that everything must be vanilla for it to be good. What I am arguing is that grasping onto the the 'old' does indeed hinder any type of change. If you don't think there is any type of change occurring in Doom, go compare .exe to ZDoom.

I made this topic for discussion and to express the following points I have come to a conclusion to:

A)The reasons OS players give for shunning any type of 'not old school' game play are weak and at times baseless.

B)There is some sort of perception that in order for a map to be a proper duel map, it has to be in vanilla or close to it.

I don't expect any sudden surge of duel servers running some sort of NS/NOS/Whatever type of maps. I don't expect a sudden acceptance of item respawn and freelook in duel32 servers. To expect such things is completely ridiculous and simply wishful thinking.

However, what I do have expectations for is that mappers and players at least attempt to break away from the mindset that their maps and creations have to be limited to Vanilla. Utilizing even some Zan-Specific features shouldn't be completely taboo as long as they are done properly within a map. "After all, the Zan duel scene DOES use a pk3". There really is no need to worry about cross-port compatibility anymore. Ten years ago, yeah it was a good idea to make a project work for both ZD and ST and whatever else people were using. These days, it's not even worth it anymore (speaking specifically on duel and multiplayer).

Additionally, one last thing I want to speak on about is this fear of division in the duel scene. There is no evidence to prove that players will migrate from Zan to elsewhere just because an alternate game play gains momentum (not saying it will gain anything). There would be nothing stopping players from being able to play what they want. People are overreacting for no apparent reason and making it seem as if I am calling for removal of compat flags or something. Again, that's part of the mentality I am speaking against: It has to be the OS way and only the OS way or bust; If something new comes along, we move along. Some of the comments on here are essentially saying this.

@Uwe L. Bendoverson

Very good point. People don't actually realize how old school item respawn actually is. It existed far before some of these guys even played.

[Strych6]

On top of this, to what aspect are OS player base so small against? NOS? And if it's so small as you make it seem, then feeling the division would be very miniscule if not non-existent in comparison to a much larger group. You'd begin feeling real division when a large group is severed in half, not when a group of 10 or 20 is pulled in half.

In what aspect? Are you kidding me? The duel scene is so small that aliasers are, most often, identified succesfully. If I joined a server and waited for someone to come, it's going to be one of ten or twelve people.
Maybe I don't get around other video games that often, but if you join a server and people are genuinely interested in who you are, its a bit bizarre without context.

Well, I'll put my money where my mouth is about challenging mappers. If a NS duelset project surfaces, let me know and I will attempt a contribution. Attempt, because I'd hope that we'll be ultimately picky. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind being part of the judge team. I've been through enough duels (citation may be accessible), and thrown away enough of my OSD maps to be in tune with that mess

[Razgriz]

In what aspect? Are you kidding me? The duel scene is so small that aliasers are, most often, identified succesfully. If I joined a server and waited for someone to come, it's going to be one of ten or twelve people.
Maybe I don't get around other video games that often, but if you join a server and people are genuinely interested in who you are, its a bit bizarre without context.

Well, I'll put my money where my mouth is about challenging mappers. If a NS duelset project surfaces, let me know and I will attempt a contribution. Attempt, because I'd hope that we'll be ultimately picky. Otherwise, I wouldn't mind being part of the judge team. I've been through enough duels (citation may be accessible), and thrown away enough of my OSD maps to be in tune with that mess

I like how you pretty much say I'm right, that it's small and the divide would not be very big. Also why are you a judge? Instead of judging, contribute. For something like this the last thing we need is someone pretending to be apart of the project, sitting in the back saying "this is good, this is not good". Only way to know is to play and contribute (assuming things take off).

[Strych6]

You will need appointed judges. Democratically choosing them is a political nightmare

[Doomkid]

try other audiences for your rebalancement mod or whatever it was, there is demand for that. Get Out of the Bubble and Burst It.

Other audiences? Zandronum is the definitive home of NS Doom mods.. You mean like Zdaemon or Odamex? Because that would be ridiculous, OS is even more common on those two than it is here..

I think Rust posted this in the perfect place (and the only place he'll be heard out) even despite the sticks in the mud who are fervently opposed to change of any sort..

[Kara Kurt]

Item respawn is hated by players because they don't like having anything help their opponent such as a medkit. I would argue it's just players being lazy and not wanting to think while dueling.

I couldn't agree more here.

Actually NS 1v1 requires more reflection & thinking and I'll even say it's another kettle of fish compared to what OS 1v1 is. Sure it's faster and all but if the map is not suitable for, then the gameplay will be based on domination and map control, just like OS dueling.

I have never been a fan of Quakish duel maps but
these kind of maps have always been perfect for the use of:

-jump
-freelook
-instant weapon switch
-instant teleport
-non-forced switch on pickup
-and of course items respawn

There's been a few NS duel tournaments using the Railgun and a faster Chaingun & Rockets pack, and it worked pretty well.

The latest NS tournament known as ZML was also based on a timelimit, encouraging players to move, think, and takes advantage of the map's dynamic aspects.

Imo having those duel maps played on Zan would be better since the Open GL allows you to play with a 180 degrees pitch. It's just a shame there's not, even though there is Skulltag duel.

Edit:

What possible chance do we have of getting newer players to play NS when they see old players who refuse to change their ways?

Either that or they'd ask every server admin to switch to OS, hah.
And well it is true that ZD's old heads are quite strict on the choices of maps, that's a shame. I do not think you can count on them to play stuff that differs from Map01 and Judas.

[Jenova]

Don't forget that NS settings on gw20 was really popular for a while before duel32 was around, being one of the most played duel maps at one point.

[Yellowtail]

Don't forget that NS settings on gw20 was really popular for a while before duel32 was around, being one of the most played duel maps at one point.

Speaking of which, it's one of the few maps on duel32 that actually doesn't have an exit, one of the things that is needed for a true OS map. Why? The original Doom game didn't have a set frag or time limit. Instead, you needed to exit the level once someone hits a certain frag limit or a set time limit was hit.

Another thing gw20 doesn't have is monsters, which is usually turned off anyway so no one really notices it. You want a true OS map list? Remove maps like gw20 and place a map that uses more vanilla-like things as mentioned above (as well as maps that use custom textures), but you're removing one of the more popular maps in the list.

[Ænima]

Yeah I liked playing GW20 back in the Skulltag days because it felt more dynamic and was less focused on just shooting (which I do suck at).

[Bloax]

Having played duel32 with something not quite OS I can definitely attest that there's plenty of fun waiting to be unleashed.
And that it's a good idea to do so.

[Razgriz]

By the way, for those who believe OS is the way to go, what IS OS?