Samsara - No longer under active development.

[Untitled]

It's not the specialties; it's that the only thing that a Strifeguy in Doom would share with the original Strifeguy would be similar weapons. Without the upgrade system, stealth/alarm mechanics, and other stuff (I don't know strife well enough), It most likely would not feel like strife at all.

The problem is, most of Strifeguy's signature mechanics and way it played out were very much native to strife and strife only.

If you can't make the hero feel even close to the original game, there's really not much of a point of adding it. While my brother dekw cringes at some of the changes you guys made to marathon ("WHY AREN'T MY WSTE-M5 COMBAT SHOTGUNS STUPIDLY OVERPOWERED"), for the most part, he feels you guys made it feel a lot like marathon did.

Ranger feels all too much like quake. At least in 0.29B, he feels a lot like quake did : I.E. if the map has a rocket launcher, there's no reason to use anything else in DM, in addition to rockets that move so fast that "Ranger=Win" is basically a thing, and in coop, he gets so many rockets that he basically has no weaknesses short of SSG fest maps that screw over everyone except Doomguy and Chex/Corvus to a lesser extent, which is apparently how quake felt - Overpowered, and easy. (I never played quake, so I can't tell you that)

[CloudFlash]

Without the upgrade system, stealth/alarm mechanics, and other stuff (I don't know strife well enough), It most likely would not feel like strife at all.

Playing as Chex guy without fighting actual chex monsters is too not like Chex Quest, and he still got a place. For me, the most 'Strife only' thing was the aforementioned shops providing player ammunition for a prize. Similar feel could be achieved if Strife guy could convert his weapon into ammunition: you pay, you get ammo, and that should be enough to both give player the Strifelike feeling and create a new character needing a totally new way of playing. I agree that Strife won't be Strife without having all Strife features, but then again, you aren't making Strife: Remake.

[Untitled]

Here's the catch, without the stealth mechanics, Strifeguy is overpowered as hell. All of his weaknesses were native to strife-yeah, tons of awesome stuff, but it's not exactly usable if you wake all the guards up until you get strong enough to take on all the guards, like when he gets accuracy upgrades so he can snipe full auto while having 200 health default, then he steps up his game. It's the upgrade system that Strife practically revolved around.

Well, I've played Chex Quest 3, and really for me, it plays out identical to doom, except with different graphics. Not much to miss out on here. The monsters of Doom even Zorch in Samsara!

Admittedly, the monsters do make the feel of the game too. Marathon still feels different because in Marathon, the enemies were a lot more dangerous (DAMN HUNTERS and DAMN GRAY EVERYTHINGS), and it was slightly slower paced. But when you play doom, you can still apply the same playstyle you did in Marathon.
And that's the thing. You can act as if you're playing that hero's original game, except with doom enemies, for the most part.
Doomguy doesn't need an introduction.
Neither does Chex Warrior.
Corvus - Now heretic played out differently than Doom. The ability to carry items, as well as weapons that were admittedly less reliable than the all mighty SSG, all feels right here in Doom AND Heretic.
BJ - I can't speak for Wolfenstein, so I dunno.
Duke - Or Duke Nukem for that matter.
Marathon - I believe I made my point - you use the MA-75B EXACTLY like you used it in Marathon, the Fusion Pistol is effective VS. mechanical things, giving it a utility function, much like in Marathon, the TOZ-T is a crowd control weapon, much like in Marathon.
Quake - Once you get a rocket launcher, it's /exactly/ like Quake. You're rolling in rockets (both normal and DoE), you get to spam the rockets like no one else does because Ranger gets moar rockets than everyone else, the rockets have all the same satisfaction of killing stuff like in Quake, and are definitely the main weapon. Just. Like. Quake. (Still hate Quad Damage BTW)

[Cruduxy]

Just a side note : Corvus weapons didn't feel less reliable since in heretic they kill nearly everything in 3 seconds :P.

[TerminusEst13]

[quote=CloudFlash]Well, as I understand it, you guys would make a Strifeguy if he had something special about him, right?[/quote]

Guy, just me working on this. :P
And it takes a bit more than just a gimmick to get me interested in making a character. Besides, the obvious gimmick/role for him would be Stealth.

[CloudFlash]

But well, if Stealth can't be placed in Doom, for obvious reasons of Doom being everything but Stealth, why not use other part of Strife, which was Easy Access To Ammo and put it instead of Stealth, considering that it works better in Doom, which could really use some Easy Access To Ammo? Also: You can't call Strife weapons op, considering that they haven't been put in Samsara at the time you spoke those words and you really can't tell how op they will be when facing Doom monsters.. I had same talk with Ivan when he was making ice rain for his hunter in gvh:lod. I explained to him that 'ice rain' does not contain any information which could possibly decide about opness. Instead, what decides about opness is how it is executed. Which means that saying that Strife is 'op' is just obvious try to weasel out of doing it without having to show some legit reasons.
...
...
... but you are still going to call him op in next post, huh u_u

[Ijon Tichy]

do you need a step-by-step breakdown as to why strife weapons are broken to all hell?

poison bolts - instagib any non-boss monster in doom besides maybe arachnotrons and spider masterminds OH WAIT they still have that giant organic brain

phosphorus grenades - one of these can kill vanilla korax alone. 5000 HP in one grenade.

sigil - lose a maximum of 20 HP (oh hey you're carrying over a thousand HP in items) for a BFG-level attack, without worrying about running out of ammo? /yes please/

HE grenades - annoying to use, but do a LOT of kaboom damage

mauler alt fire - another BFG, hooray. primary is just an ssg so fuck that

assault gun - with all accuracy upgrades, you're stepping extremely heavily on BJ's toes with your sniper rifle that just so happens to be automatic

punch dagger - can kill inquisitors in one hit? /damn/

not to mention, again, his 1000+ HP in his inventory, his shadow armor, his blue-armor-on-demand, his teleporter beacons...

he steps on corvus', BJ's, parias', and duke's toes just from this, and beats them all at their own game

/not/
/happening/

[Cruduxy]

He also beats quake on rockets and everyone in mass destruction :P
Strifeguy is the perfect hero lol -or perfect drug dealer for that matter-

[TerminusEst13]

But well, if Stealth can't be placed in Doom, for obvious reasons of Doom being everything but Stealth, why not use other part of Strife, which was Easy Access To Ammo and put it instead of Stealth, considering that it works better in Doom, which could really use some Easy Access To Ammo?

What?
Doom's ammo is already stupidly easy to access. Shells are everywhere. o_O

Also: You can't call Strife weapons op, considering that they haven't been put in Samsara at the time you spoke those words and you really can't tell how op they will be when facing Doom monsters.. [...] Which means that saying that Strife is 'op' is just obvious try to weasel out of doing it without having to show some legit reasons.

Hahaha, sure, we'll go with that.

[CloudFlash]

[scissors]
[/scissors]

But only if you plan to put them without slightest changes. With all upgrades possible in Strife. Ever played MMORPGs? So compare Strife weapons to your char's stats. While I say "Stamina", "Agility", "Energy", you hear "8940178592098593", "1479372038382089389", "8240838420274309247820".
Also, even thru I wasn't aiming this to you:

... but you are still going to call him op in next post, huh u_u

-=***=-

What?
Doom's ammo is already stupidly easy to access. Shells are everywhere. o_O

*pouts* But I keep running out of cells every 10 seconds probably due to my spam fetish ;_;

[Untitled]

Running out of cells, yes.

Have. You. */EVER/*. Ran out of shells?

One of the points is stealth and the inability to shoot (along with infinitely spawning enemies) was the only reason why strife was any difficult. AND the upgrade system was half of strife.
The other point being that the only things that were remotely hard about strife was having to be careful. If you didn't wake everything up via guards and alarms in strife, suddenly Strife would be EZ mode. (And from what I hear, it sort of is easy when you get full upgrades)

EDIT: Though admittedly, if you made all of the ammo pickups do DoE-styled ammo giveaways, you could make the poison bolts/grenades as rare as they were in Strife.

To be honest, using 20 health instead of 40 cells feels like a bad deal. What if you're playing multiplayer and everyone is busy not paying attention to others? What if you're using it as a desperation move? What if the level has more ammo than health? (I've seen plenty of levels that are unforgiving in health pickups.)

[Tito]

I only need the pk3 file to play, right? or do I need the pk7 file ,too ?

[TerminusEst13]

You only need the .pk3 or the .pk7, not both.
I would suggest the .pk3.

[Ijon Tichy]

[scissors]
[/scissors]

i'm not into that, sorry

But only if you plan to put them without slightest changes. With all upgrades possible in Strife. Ever played MMORPGs?

strife made a pretty big deal of you becoming stupidly OP as you progressed through the game
removing that would make strifeguy not strifeguy
seriously did you even play strife

So compare Strife weapons to your char's stats.

pretty sure i already did this but okay

punch dagger:
- at first, is normal fist-tier
- as you upgrade it, it gets to the point where parias' melee capabilities - you know, his niche? - cannot keep up with this

crossbow:
- primary fire: shit
- alt-fire: kills any non-completely-mechanical enemy in the game, which in strife limited it to only acolytes
you wanna know how many enemies in doom, heretic, and hexen that were completely mechanical?
none
the only possible exception is the iron lich
this would outclass literally every other bfg tier weapon that anyone could ever have
(besides lelwepsguy, but he isn't making it in so)

assault gun:
- at first, rivals doomguy's chaingun
- as you upgrade it, it gets to the point where it matches BJ's chaingun at every mark without blinding you, thereby beating BJ at his own game

mini missile launcher:
- at first, is an inaccurate quake grenade launcher minus gravity
- as you upgrade it, becomes a perfectly accurate quake grenade launcher minus gravity, beating out every other slot 3 in sheer versality

grenade launcher:
- primary fire is stronger than duke's rocket launcher in pure explosive power, which means it'll be the most effective by far in crowds (plus bouncing damage, which if dropped on an enemy can add up to an absurd amount)
- secondary fire is bfg tier, completely stopping hordes and enemies from taking a route for 30 seconds or else they get murdered in a second

flamethrower:
- beats out the security officer's flamethrower in ammo efficiency and maybe damage

mauler:
- primary fire is exactly the same as doomguy's ssg, albeit using cells so who'd want to use it
- secondary fire makes for the third bfg-tier weapon strifeguy gets - 20hp minus some cells gets you a blast that oneshots all non-boss monsters

sigil:
- literally every fire mode of this is bfg-tier, with it getting more and more bfg-tier as you level it up
- at level 5, can clear entire rooms on its own for a measly 20hp cost

player:
- can carry 875 hp, 3 sets of "blursphere but better", teleporter beacons, a scanner which is basically am_cheat 2, 3 sets of green armor, 2 sets of blue armor, degnin ore which acts as mines, and some other shit I've likely forgot, stepping heavily on corvus' toes and beating him in many ways

so let's see, how many heroes does he match un-upgraded?

- everyone through sigil, poison bolts, and phosphorus grenades
- security officer through flamethrower
- duke and ranger through mini-missile launcher and grenade launcher
- doomguy through assault gun and mauler
- corvus through inventory
- chexguy through auto-use health allowing him to tank to ridiculous levels

and fully upgraded?

- everyone through sigil, poison bolts, and phosphorus grenades
- everyone through mini-missile launcher being a better slot 3 than any other one out there in basically every way
- parias through punch dagger
- security officer through flamethrower
- doomguy and BJ through assault gun
- duke and ranger through mini-missile launcher and grenade launcher
- doomguy through mauler
- corvus through inventory
- chexguy through auto-use health allowing him to tank to ridiculous levels
- chexguy again through having 200 hp

that's literally everyone many times over

even un-upgraded, strifeguy is strong enough to match and beat most heroes
upgraded, there is basically no reason not to use him (besides maybe ranger's roflrockets)

While I say "Stamina", "Agility", "Energy", you hear "8940178592098593", "1479372038382089389", "8240838420274309247820".

wat

*pouts* But I keep running out of cells every 10 seconds probably due to my spam fetish ;_;

that's the point of cells

[Untitled]

I know that Strife Guy had stealth problems back in strife and all, but with an arsenal as OP as that, what made strife any difficult, seeing how you can be like lol kill everything? Were enemies in strife just that hard to kill?

"Beating out every slot 3 for Versatility". Uh, it uses rockets, meaning it can't be most versatile, due to not being usable most of the time (see: Explosive Shotgun, which gives 15 rockets to make up for the fact, and Grenade Launcher, which gives 10 rockets.) I'd say SSG is most versatile.

Which brings me to the one and only problem I have with Samsara.
Samsara made me hate an entire subset of (luckily rare...oh wait) Doom maps.

SSG maps.

SSG maps in Samsara screw everyone over except for Doomguy, and Corvus and Chex have a good shot too. To an even lesser extent, SO can manage if he gets lucky (Dual WSTE-M5s), and Ranger can make it if he's lucky because he doesn't need very much rocket ammo for his grenades (lol I get 3 times more rockets than everyone else) meaning he can go wild with them if the map provides even a little bit.

So that's... 3 Classes which are doomed, 2 Classes which have a slim chance, 2 classes that handle fairly well, and 1 class that handles it actually well.

You can probably see why I hate SSG maps now. This is what Samsara has done to me.

[TerminusEst13]

what made strife any difficult, seeing how you can be like lol kill everything? Were enemies in strife just that hard to kill?

All of the downsides Strifeguy had were downsides that were specific only to his game.

1: Massive amount of hitscan enemies, which meant that even with all of his HP/armor carrying stuff, he was guaranteed to take a whole ton of damage. This is also the same reason everyone in Samsara carries items when in Strife, so they can mitigate that damage.
2: Likewise, the alarms provide a huge stream of enemies--now, this barely seems like a downside considering the sheer amount of power you accumulate, but they are massive in number and you are not. Even if by attrition, you will likely lose.
3: The highest-tier enemies, Spectres and Entity, were only damageable by use of your HP-draining item, which only the amount of medikits you carried made any difference to--so the sheer amount of disgustingly-powerful weapons and armor you could carry meant nothing.
4: Pickups in the field were scarce, meaning you had weigh between continuing on and progressing or running back to the town to buy more and start all over again.

How does this transfer to Doom?
...Well, it doesn't.

1: Most of Doom's bestiary is projectile-based.
2: There are no alarms, nor any infinite source of enemies.
3: Every enemy in Doom is damageable with every weapon. Now unless you make the Cyberdemon/Spidermind invulnerable to all Strife weapons except the Sigil...but even then, that carries a whole bunch of issues.
4: Pickups are very common.

Contrary to what some of my detractors would like to say, I have thought this over many, many, many, many, many times. I even have a half-finished weapon loadout somewhere on my hard drive that I experimented with, just to see how it worked. And every time, it just keeps not working out. The end result is almost always some half-baked character with the name Strifeguy, but is neither Strifeguy nor even reasonably Strife-esque. I will not be putting Strifeguy in Samsara. This is final.

Maybe some entrepreneur genius fan will figure it out. Maybe he'll make the add-on to end all add-ons. Maybe he'll get everything perfect on the first time and create a majesty so great that people will weep.
It will not be me. I don't even like Strife, which is the go-to answer I use just so I don't repeat all of this every single time it's brought up.

Sorry.

[Espio]

Strife enemies in towns weren't infinite.. have you opened the maps (or noclipped) and looked at the dummy sectors with linedefs to teleport in multiple acolytes at multiple areas at once?

[TerminusEst13]

So I have been told. Fixed.

[HexaDoken]

Well, one could, you know, stop being ridiculously obessed about EXACT DAMAGE VALUES HURR and apply a bit of rebalancing to his weapons.

Or more like, rebalance the bloody shit out of literally everything.

Yeah this would feel slightly less like Strife, but, you know, it's a lot better than nothing whatsoever. Plus it's not like, say, Duke feels like his original game, yet for some reason impossible for me to comprehend he IS probably the most popular character. At least when I play.

[CloudFlash]

I lol at all those braindeads trying to prove that Strife can be Strife only when you have over 9000 of every possible item in Strife. I don't know if they truly believe this or do they keep 'forgetting' that in Strife only Strifeguy kept getting better, while monsters were pretty much the same for the whole game.
So yea, the game was easy.
BUT ONLY. WHEN YOU. BOUGHT ALL. POSSIBLE THINGS. AND UPGRADES. OVER 9000 TIMES. And to get money for this sort of action, I bet you had to either replay first levels over and over, or use cheats. Replaying levels over and over is boring and cheats are just an 'instant Ee-zy modo', which is probably why I never felt overpowered while playing Strife. I just didn't let myself turn into the 'oh, look, a super strong enemy which is supposed to resist all my attacks for good minute before finally dying! Bang, dead' sort of noob.
Edit: after thinking a bit about the matter, I can easily say that when the message is 'Strife is OP', the counter should be 'your fault'. Unless you want to just rip out Strife guy without changing anything at all about him, then it is 'your laziness fault'.

-=***=-

Running out of cells, yes.
Have. You. */EVER/*. Ran out of shells?

Shells? Where is fun in shooting and not seeing anything that flies out of your gun? PLASMA 4EVA 3333333333

IGOR WAS HERE.