Where is Zandronum Going? (Follow-up to the Mapping Standards Thread)

[Catastrophe]

I’m making this thread as a follow-up to the conversation that started here: the “On the topic of newer mapping/modding standards” thread. That discussion covered a lot of ground: licensing, visibility, modding barriers, lack of infrastructure, and the engine’s long-term viability. If you missed it, I highly recommend reading it. A lot of people, not just the usual names, showed up with strong perspectives and serious concerns.

And then… nothing.

Weeks of input, multiple pages of thoughtful posts, and we got zero dev or staff response. Not even a “we’re reading this” or “we’ll get back to you.” Just total silence. And in the two weeks that followed? The only visible “development” was an attempt to update the site logo, which crashed the forums. That’s not a joke. That actually happened. No rollback, no communication, just the entire forums completely broken until someone quietly patched it. That would be funny if it weren’t so bleak. A rainbow logo broke the forums and it stayed that way, while the team couldn’t spare a single message to acknowledge a thread full of people raising serious concerns about the port’s future. If that doesn’t scream neglect, I don’t know what does.

Meanwhile, we’ve got people pointing out that Sgt. Mark IV, whether you like him or not, has a game with potentially over 50,000 wishlists on Steam. He has a proven track record, a massive following, and wanted to ship Zandronum with his game. But because of the licensing mess, he couldn’t. That’s a huge missed opportunity. One that could’ve brought attention, contributors, and momentum to Zandronum, without anyone even having to lift a finger. All it had to do was not be a legal minefield. So not only is there no modernization, no vision, no roadmap, we’re also failing to maintain the most basic level of trust or stability.

That became painfully obvious when a few users made heated (yes, inflammatory) posts, and instead of being moved to the Trash like this forum has always done for transparency, they were quietly deleted. No archive, no context, no explanation. Just gone. That’s not how you handle moderation in a project that’s supposed to be open and community-driven. If you want people to speak up, you have to make it safe to do so. Even if someone crosses a line, there should be process, not a silent purge. When posts vanish without trace, it doesn’t “clean things up.” It creates fear. It erodes trust. And when people no longer feel safe contributing, they stop showing up at all.

This isn’t drama. It’s about basic communication and leadership, and right now, neither is happening.

People gave their time to write feedback, propose solutions, and show that they still care about this port. What did we get in return? Silence. A forum-crashing logo. Deleted posts. That’s the message being sent from the top. Zandronum has survived this long thanks to a few people doing their best, and that deserves praise. But at some point, “keeping the lights on” becomes indistinguishable from just letting it rot. And right now, we’re losing even the last active projects that kept Zandronum relevant. Mods like Death and Decay are moving to GZDoom, not because of features, but because there's no confidence left in this port’s direction. Ivan, one of the most dedicated contributors this ports had, is ready to walk away. That should upset anyone who still thinks this engine has a future. This isn’t just about losing future potential, we’re actively bleeding out the last remaining reasons to care. And at this point, it’s hard not to feel like something deeper is wrong.

I’m not saying there’s active sabotage going on… but if someone were trying to sabotage the project, what exactly would they be doing differently? They’d ignore the biggest thread of the year. Avoid every serious question raised. Push a tone-deaf site update that breaks everything. Refuse to fix the licensing issues driving creators away. Quietly delete posts to bury symptoms instead of facing problems.

That’s what this looks like.

And I say that not to start drama, but because perception matters. When everything looks like it’s being mismanaged, and the people in charge say nothing, people will start assuming the worst. Whether or not it’s true doesn’t matter. The result is the same: creators leave, players check out, and what’s left is a skeleton with no direction. That’s the fire we’re sitting in. And until someone at the top acknowledges it, people are going to keep assuming the worst, because right now, that’s all we’re being shown.

[Ivan]

I'm just going to say a few quick things before I stop caring about this port altogether, as it no longer is worth my time and effort as demonstrated by the inept mods/admins.

1. Completely shadow deleting posts on a dead forum criticizing YOUR lack of effort and ambition speaks ill of you. Not even a warning so I can't know which of the moronic mods deleted it. (I already know anyway, it's a small town here, nothing but tumbleweeds and like 1 guy) Besides, most of us took screenshots of it anyway so you can't hide it :) You really think saving face in a situation like this is what's going to help you? You know who else tried that? Nax. Look where he is now. Nowhere, doing nothing. Where are his grand plans to save the port? He's keeping it on life support and for what? It's sad when Odamex has a better future than your port.

2. It is true I'm jumping ship. This port has caused enough headaches to me with it's incomprehensible crash reports and quiet crashes to desktop with no logs or information whatsoever despite my years of asking for help on better error messages and helping the modders. I'm tired of important requests being slipped aside and useless shit getting added in. Hence, I no longer care. I recommend people who want to have a more enjoyable time making mods to do the same. This port has nothing going on for you, the sooner you realize it the better.

[Ænima]

I've had a few things on my mind since the original thread but I've refrained from posting until now because I assumed that topic was dead. But since we're talking about it again, here I go...

• Outreach/"marketing"

  We have a dead Youtube channel

  Last week, I took the liberty of converting my entire YouTube channel into the "official" showcase for Zandro mods. (since that's basically all I ever use my YT channel for nowadays anyway)

  
  

  It only has 500 subscribers at the moment but it's been steadily gaining at least 4 or 5 a day since rebranding. I deleted most of my non-Doom-related videos also. If anyone has a trailer or gameplay video for their mod, feel free to send it to me and I'll post it on this channel, that way everything can be in one place and players can see the wide variety of mods Zan has on offer.
• Improvements to the auth system and/or integration with DoomSeeker. Players should be able to create auth accounts immediately after installing Zandronum, ideally upon DoomSeeker's first launch, and have their credentials saved by DoomSeeker so that they're automatically logged in upon joining any server that's running a database. The current approach of having an ingame message instructing players to "go to Zandronum.com/register" when they're already ingame is a bit annoying, especially with how precarious alt-tabbing can be. I know Sean mentioned to me in Discord that a player has to currently be connected to a server in order to send their credentials, but there has to be SOME way for DoomSeeker to store that and then simply send it once the game launches.
  
  The auth system and the ability for players to have their data saved between play sessions could be a total game-changer in terms of player retention. But for modders like me, implementing database functionality in my mods just seems like a waste of time because the auth system's current state is so user-unfriendly that nobody will actually use it. This is a tragedy. The system has existed for years. By now, we COULD have had dozens of mods that feature MMO-style user progression like XP saving, rare items, "cosmetics", stat buffs, etc etc. Things that would keep players engaged and give them a reason to play Zan online for more than just one session. There ARE a few mods using the auth system like RGA2 and DnD (iirc), but again, only a tiny fraction of the people playing those mods are actually using the system.
• Ingame server browser improvements -- I'm not sure exactly what changes to make but I feel like scrolling through 10 pages of empty servers that I can't tell apart because all I can see is the first 10 characters of the server name, 90% of which start with "[TSPG-PK]", isn't really conducive to finding something interesting to play. Yes I know the filters exist. It doesn't change the fact that it's still a giant list that I have to navigate with the arrow keys. Maybe something more visual or something with a "lobby" format would be better. Again, I can't really think of any specific improvements to make but I'm not sure it even matters anyways since the ingame browser is already basically an afterthought in the presence of Doomseeker.

[Kaminsky]

Due to the importance of what's been addressed in this thread and the previous thread, it's necessary that I finally respond to this discussion. I'd like to apologize for taking so long to respond (I needed to take a break from development for a while, and dealing with a few issues in real life have left me with little time to focus on Zandronum). It's obvious that the future of Zandronum and its steady decline in activity over the years is concerning. Now that 3.2 has been released for over two months now, it's a huge question on what direction we go from here and what we should do for 4.0. While this certainly comes late, we (the developers) finally discussed some of these issues during one of our meetings. Without going into specific details, here's some of the points that were brought up and some of my own comments:

1. The website definitely needs some uplifting. For one thing, our email server has always been a crutch, and people are currently finding it difficult to activate accounts on the forums and tracker (the latter being very important for our development cycle). Though, from what I've been told, Marcaek has looked into fixing the email server recently. However, I want to express:
   
   1. Our website, especially the front page, is extremely outdated by today's standards and doesn't expose what our port is about, is capable of, or what it has to offer, aside from a few brief sentences that don't do enough justice. Given how our website might be one of the first places newcomers look when they hear about our project, we should include content that convinces newcomers why this is the port they might want to play on or mod for, and why this should be the most popular multiplayer Doom port (my opinion anyways). I agree with some other people here that I miss the old Skulltag website that showed screenshots of various mods on its front page. I'd like to see something like that return to Zandronum, along with videos (maybe even a trailer of our port), a more detailed explanation of the port's features that distinguish us from other ports, and a more modern UI design.
   2. The forums have been a ghost town for years, but there's not much we can, or should, do to revive activity around here. Much of our presence has been on Discord ever since our server was created around 2017, as this is where most people look and socialize nowadays. While the forums are still useful for making announcements for projects and Zandronum releases, we could have the forums more directly push people to Discord now.
   3. I'd like to see one of the logos Zeberpal created for Zandronum and shared on Discord a while ago, officially used on our website. They're all sleek, modernistic, and easy to read, and some even incorporated our icon into the text. I shared these designs with Torr, and he seems to like them too.
2. We're discussing on possibly switching over from Mercurial to Git. While Mercurial has always been our preferred choice over Git for a variety of reasons, it's hard to deny that:
   
   1. Git is a lot more popular than Mercurial, and thus, people are generally more versed in the former than the latter. In addition, there are far more websites (e.g. GitHub) that support Git and make it simple to fork our project and submit merge/pull requests. Evidently, several people who already tried contributing to Zandronum expressed difficulty in using Mercurial, and Heptapod's approach to giving people developer access to our project before they can make merge requests isn't so favourable either.
   2. Almost every other Doom port, especially GZDoom and Q-Zandronum, use Git. Bridging the gap between these repositories and ours (i.e. hg-git) is complicated and fragile when we still use a different system from theirs.
   3. While it might not be an easy decision for us to make, if the lack of manpower is a major concern in Zandronum's development, then switching over to a system that makes it easier for anyone to contribute to our project is an important step to take. We should be inviting people to contribute to Zandronum more.
3. Separating ourselves from GZDoom is something that we might need to consider in the long run, whether or not ZScript support is feasible (though, I've had some luck with possibly getting ZScript to work with our netcode a few weeks ago, but it's still too early to say for sure). While we try to maintain parity with GZDoom, it's becoming clear that this won't be possible as time goes. Right now, our port suffers from technical problems or limitations (e.g. stuck with ancient Windows API code that causes gamma issues, stuck with proprietary software or code that limits a modder's ability to distribute their project, still using FMOD Ex instead of OpenAL, lack of MBF21 or ID24 support, etc.) that have been fixed in GZDoom. However, we're still based on GZDoom 1.8.6 which is now 11 years old. Trying to play catch-up and upgrade our base to what's current in GZDoom will be an uphill battle that might not work out in the end, nor is something that can wait a long time for.

I'm sure there's lots of other issues that I haven't touched on here, but I think I covered most of the bigger ones. I must express that while many ideas have been brought up in this discussion already, this isn't something that will change overnight. In fact, it might take some time before significant changes come into fruition. At the end of the day, this is a project that most of us can only work on during our free time, whenever we can. On a positive note, I want mention that I recently became one of the maintainers of our main repository, meaning that I'm now able to push changes, or review and approve code changes from other people, without Torr needing to step in. Considering that I've been the most active code contributor for years, it certainly helps to finally have this privilege and gain more control over the project.

[Fused]

I obviously don't have any specific comments since I took part in the meeting but I definitely do hope we can reconsider the sync with GZDoom as was mentioned. Perhaps this is overthinking the point on my part but it feels like we don't get to introduce many features as it risks conflicting with this sync. I am somewhat able to read C++ with my C# background so I'd love to contribute a bunch of new things, but it feels as many things simply can't be done because they have either been done in a future GZDoom version that Zandronum might base off in a decade, or we simply can't do it because it will conflict with something GZDoom has already done another way. Coupling more loosely to GZDoom, or not at all, does very much feel like the better approach as there isn't enough dev time to attempt and stick to another engine. This is also as somebody who is unsure what real benefit sticking to this engine could have apart from possibly having the same set of features and backwards compatibility. It feels odd having to maintain this when GZDoom has a whole different vision not related to multiplayer, and Zandronum does its best to stick with it.

I do feel like having Zandronum being its own engine would benefit development as there would not be as many "what-ifs" regarding compatibility with GZDoom, and we can freely develop whatever and only worry about what benefits the actual engine.

(also, having an actual channel to discuss this that is publicly available would benefit contributors a lot without having to wait for the actual review)

[arkore]

Zandronum’s Future: Say No to ZScript and Chart Our Own Course

Hey Zandronum community,

I’ve been reflecting on the ongoing debate about Zandronum’s relationship with (G)ZDoom, especially regarding ZScript and the idea of re-forking from a newer (G)ZDoom version. Zandronum is the heart of Doom’s multiplayer scene, and I think it’s time we solidify our identity by rejecting ZScript and focusing on what makes us unique. Here’s my take—let’s break it down.

Zandronum’s Strength: Multiplayer and Accessibility

Zandronum, born from Skulltag and forked from GZDoom 1.8.6, has carved out its niche with a laser focus on multiplayer. Features like Last Man Standing, Invasion, a built-in server browser, and voice chat (new in v3.2) make it the go-to engine for online Doom action. This is what sets us apart from (G)ZDoom, which has chased graphical bells and whistles—shaders, bump mapping, mirrors, portals—that look great but don’t necessarily enhance our experience.

Modding accessibility is another cornerstone of Zandronum. DECORATE and ACS scripting are straightforward and have empowered countless modders to create content without needing a computer science degree. This inclusivity keeps our community thriving, and we can’t afford to lose it.

The ZScript Problem: Complexity We Don’t Need

(G)ZDoom’s developers introduced ZScript, claiming it’s a necessary evolution beyond DECORATE. I disagree—it’s a complication we didn’t ask for, and it threatens what makes Zandronum special. Here’s why:

• Gatekeeping Development: ZScript adds a layer of abstraction with its clunky syntax (those semicolons!) and steeper learning curve. It’s geared toward hardcore programmers, not the casual modders who’ve kept Doom alive for decades. If we adopt it, we risk alienating the majority of our creators.
• Replacing DECORATE: Despite some claims that ZScript won’t replace DECORATE, the evidence says otherwise. Look at Realm667—someone’s converting all those free assets from DECORATE to ZScript. This isn’t a supplement; it’s a takeover. Forcing Zandronum modders to adapt would fracture our community.
• Unwanted Overreach: ZScript feels like a feature built for (G)ZDoom’s pride, not our needs. Did the Zandronum community demand this? I don’t think so. DECORATE works fine—its simplicity is its strength. If we need more functionality, we can extend it with new functions (e.g., A_SpawnItemEx2()) or parameters. Less is more.
• Aesthetic and Practical Mess: ZScript’s syntax is ugly and harder to read than DECORATE’s clean format. It’s like pissing in fresh water—sure, it’s still usable, but why ruin something good?

ZScript is a can of worms we don’t need to open. It serves (G)ZDoom’s vision, not ours.

(G)ZDoom’s Direction: Not Our Path

Let’s be real—(G)ZDoom’s developers are obsessed with pushing the engine to extremes, often for their own satisfaction rather than the community’s benefit. Their pride in features like ZScript shows a disconnect from casual players and modders. Zandronum doesn’t need to follow that arms race. Our focus is multiplayer gameplay and modding accessibility, not graphical flexing.

That said, (G)ZDoom has made progress since 1.8.6—11 years is a long time in tech. Re-forking from a newer version could bring performance boosts and bug fixes, which I’m not against. But it has to be on our terms. We’d need to:

• Re-implement all of Zandronum’s core features (multiplayer, game modes, etc.).
• Ditch ZScript and stick with DECORATE and ACS.
• Ensure the fork doesn’t compromise our accessibility or identity.

If that’s not feasible, I’d rather we stay on our current path and build from what we have.

Let’s Separate Further and Stay True to Ourselves

Zandronum shouldn’t bend to (G)ZDoom’s will. We’re not a subset of their project—we’re a distinct community with different priorities. Rejecting ZScript is a step toward asserting that independence. We can innovate by enhancing DECORATE, refining multiplayer features, and keeping modding open to all.

Your Input Matters

What do you think? Should Zandronum:

• Say no to ZScript and double down on DECORATE?
• Explore a re-fork from (G)ZDoom, but only if we can preserve our soul?
• Focus on new multiplayer features instead of chasing (G)ZDoom’s tech?

Let’s decide our future together. Zandronum’s strength is its community—let’s keep it that way.

Thanks,
Arkore

[Ivan]

...

This post reeks of AI.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Re-implement all of Zandronum’s core features (multiplayer, game modes, etc.).

Re-forking from a modern GZdoom version wouldn't solve anything and even if you could re-implement the netcode and ST/Zan specific functionality, ZScript would have to be stripped out of that hypothetical codebase. This would be a lot of work for very little gain when compared to other suggestions given across both of these threads. If someone wanted to do that much work, they would be better off designing and implementing a new netcode for Zan.

[2.5d_camper]

Zandronum’s Future: Say No to ZScript and Chart Our Own Course

Aesthetic and Practical Mess: ZScript’s syntax is ugly and harder to read than DECORATE’s clean format. It’s like pissing in fresh water—sure, it’s still usable, but why ruin something good?

Sorry. Just wanted to add that DECORATE is supported by k8vavoom and ketmar, the port developer, has no intention of abandoning it. This doesn't fully guarantee compatibility between ports, because there is no DECORATE standard in the details, but at least I hope it makes it easier for mods to adapt.

[2.5d_camper]

Maybe I'll say something unpopular. But isn't it worth looking at the namespace "doom" for the UDMF standard? This should provide greater compatibility between ports. For example, I made a map in udmf with the namespace "doom" instead of "zdoom", and it works fine in zandronum, edge-classic and k8vavoom.