Scrimming: make it better

[Luke]

Why do you always play the same wads and maps?

I'm aware that playing IDL stock maps would help both teams to train for the International Doom League, but why do you play the same maps?
Isn't it boring?
Why don't clans diversify the battle ground, playing Capture One Flag, King of the Hill, Team Deathmatch?
Why don't we threw one person from each of 8 clans into a Free For All server and let them playing all the maps of that wad, and elect as winner the person who wins most of the maps? Keep playing, excuse me the double mean (:), we could elect winner the person whom collects most kills?
What's wrong with playing the last AWFUL CTF wad released, giving both teams something new to play with?

I think that there could be more clans and people would more likely play scrims if they had more choice further than "The IDL Stock Maps".

(edit)Let me add that I know that the competitive scene is yet hot for a game old 20 years, but I thought that there could be more players interested if it offered a bit of variation.... and I'm talking for myself actually. If I don't play competitive is because I played those maps to death on zdaemon, and I would be interested in non-cooperative game modes only if I could play new maps (and why not, new game modes).
I know that I am one and competitive players are ###, and that one player wouldn't make a difference so, but there must be someone else like me out there, right?(/edit)

Let's discuss this, and don't forget to give us your suggestions to make the competitive scene more catchy.

[Ænima]

The reason the same maps are constantly picked are because they are good maps. They're tried and tested. It is commonly agreed that the overall gameplay of that map is most suitable for proving your team's skill against your opponent's team in a competitive setting.

[Luke]

Right, but we do play for fun, right?
I know competition and everything, but if we play on a map with a terrible layout, but specular, both teams would suffer of its flaws and unbalanced points and bugs. Overall it would be a balanced match (talking about specular CTF/COF game modes).
As for non-specular maps (besides that I've never seen a scrim on something different from CTF on IDL maps) if my team is skilled can prevail on the others even if the other team is controlling a position which give a huge advantage.

Have you ever seen a TDM scrim? I didn't, and I open Doomseeker a dozen times a day when I'm here, even if I don't play for 6 months straight.

[ot]edit: I guess that most of the clans only want to be recognized as the best, or one of the best, clans and that many people on the competitive scene play for fun, for the hell of it! and PLEASE don't feel touched by this comment, it's just a thought and I'm not pointing my finger towards anyone, I was the first who played like crazy and went like "lol noob! suck it!" to brag about his skills. That period is over, but I still understand who plays with this mood.[/ot]

[Qent]

We've scrimmed more in TDM than CTF of late because we've usually only got 2 players available.

As with many other things though, "If you want a thing done right, do it yourself."

[Mechromancer]

I've seen some of what you're asking about, and in all honesty, people won't do it (at least, the older clans are highly unlikely to) unless it's a clanwar, and even then, half the time, the same stuff will always be used, because people are comfortable on these maps. I've talked myself hoarse again and again on why map08 and map04 and all the IDL stuff is overplayed, but no one is going to listen. Unless you can get a bunch of new clans to start doing this... Odds are, nothing will change.

[Luke]

As with many other things though, "If you want a thing done right, do it yourself."

If only anyone gave a thing about [id]... I could join a random clan, but then I wouldn't feel like going in the clan channel and beg everyone to play that while I'm the last who came aboard and can barely hold the SSG.

Besides my rant, you're totally right, I know it.

[The Toxic Avenger]

TDM scrims still go on, in fact one of them (PRO vs H) happened today.

You just got to try to break out of the norm sometimes.

[Torvald]

You just got to try to break out of the norm sometimes.

This is especially fun when Hydra, for example, picks map23 during ctf. He knows how to troll his clan-mates exceeding well

[RedShirt]

You just got to try to break out of the norm sometimes.

This is especially fun when Hydra, for example, picks map23 during ctf. He knows how to troll his clan-mates exceeding well

Or when I pick Greenwar Map16 for a 5v5 TDM . But seriously those maps are picked because they are made well and play very well and people get comfortable with them which is why I pick maps like map23 because I like a little bit of variety when I play. Hopefully when Watermelon gets this ZandroCTF pack released it will get things stirred up.

[Watermelon]

Here's some input, lets get some discussion going! :)

Why do you always play the same wads and maps?

I'm aware that playing IDL stock maps would help both teams to train for the International Doom League, but why do you play the same maps?
Isn't it boring?

We don't always play the same maps, and they are mixed up. Each year we get new maps as well, and other times we play on FNF or on ZD's mega-compilation.

Why don't clans diversify the battle ground, playing Capture One Flag, King of the Hill, Team Deathmatch?

CTF has by far the most strategy to employ based on how the maps are set up. It's the only game mode where frags don't let you win.
Look at R play, and you'll notice Saber has always the lowest frags, but he makes the best plays at the right time and that's why R wins 99.9% of the time.

Why don't we threw one person from each of 8 clans into a Free For All server and let them playing all the maps of that wad, and elect as winner the person who wins most of the maps? Keep playing, excuse me the double mean (:), we could elect winner the person whom collects most kills?

Theres only really 4 clans right now, and that'd leave everyone else out. Plus we sort of already do that with the TDM section in clan wars or scrims against MLK

What's wrong with playing the last AWFUL CTF wad released, giving both teams something new to play with?

Cause playing awful maps as stated, have not stood the test of time.

I think that there could be more clans and people would more likely play scrims if they had more choice further than "The IDL Stock Maps".

This was tried out on ZD and it didn't help at all, in fact it sort of made it worse.

(edit)Let me add that I know that the competitive scene is yet hot for a game old 20 years, but I thought that there could be more players interested if it offered a bit of variation.... and I'm talking for myself actually. If I don't play competitive is because I played those maps to death on zdaemon, and I would be interested in non-cooperative game modes only if I could play new maps (and why not, new game modes).

The most commonly played maps are probably 31 and 14, which were not really on ZDCTF.
There's also a Zandronum CTF compilation coming out soon that you should check out. Maybe this will encourage you to drop by.

I know that I am one and competitive players are ###, and that one player wouldn't make a difference so, but there must be someone else like me out there, right?(/edit)

Despite me going point by point, I do *not* disagree with you in looking for new varied maps. That is why I got a Zandronum CTF compilation together, and hopefully it will bring some of what you said to the table.

Let's discuss this, and don't forget to give us your suggestions to make the competitive scene more catchy.

Remember, competitive isn't meant to be catchy, it's meant to be competitive.

Right, but we do play for fun, right?

A mixture of fun and competition.

I know competition and everything, but if we play on a map with a terrible layout, but specular, both teams would suffer of its flaws and unbalanced points and bugs. Overall it would be a balanced match (talking about specular CTF/COF game modes).
As for non-specular maps (besides that I've never seen a scrim on something different from CTF on IDL maps) if my team is skilled can prevail on the others even if the other team is controlling a position which give a huge advantage.

What is specular?
Most CTF players are smart enough to find all the choke-points and nifty tricks within the first match, which then just leaves everyone with a shitty map left over.

Have you ever seen a TDM scrim? I didn't, and I open Doomseeker a dozen times a day when I'm here, even if I don't play for 6 months straight.

We had one last night
You're not in the competitive scene so you tend to miss them all, we do carry out TDM at times.

I've talked myself hoarse again and again on why map08 and map04 and all the IDL stuff is overplayed, but no one is going to listen. Unless you can get a bunch of new clans to start doing this... Odds are, nothing will change.

No one plays map08 on this port unless I pick it, or R scrims.
31, 14, 28, 20 and 26 are where all the rage is at.

[Catastrophe]

In short, competition is for keeps, not fun.

Priv? yeah thats for fun, but you scrim to win.

[TerminusEst13]

What's wrong with playing the last AWFUL CTF wad released

Because it's awful.

The problem with trying something new is not that the scene is in a rut, but because there hasn't been a huge gamut of DM/CTF/etc maps as of late that play as well as the old blood. Outside of the 32-in-24 scene, I really haven't seen a lot of recent multiplayer map set releases that are really kick-your-ass good. Hell, I've been bending over backwards trying to find a good LMS map set.

[The Toxic Avenger]

Outside of the 32-in-24 scene, I really haven't seen a lot of recent multiplayer map set releases that are really kick-your-ass good.

VelocityCTF is actually just that.

[Slyfox]

whats wrong with map 08? :(
also I personally can play [and even sometimes asked] for any gamemode the clan we challanged felt like.
Hell, I did this to mix up a bit y'know

[Ivan]

whats wrong with map 08? :(
also I personally can play [and even sometimes asked] for any gamemode the clan we challanged felt like.
Hell, I did this to mix up a bit y'know

Making scrimming better depends on mentality of the clan(s). As seen above, that worked very nicely and I was even surprised that actually happened. It was quite fun and new, something you had to improvise to do good. We don't have things like that anymore. If people could arrange scrims more like that, I'm pretty sure the general consensus about scrimming would differ.

[Aabra]

I'm still waiting for the day people setup real scrims for the domination game mode. There's so much opportunity for real strategy and teamwork in that mode.

Most people love the stdom mapset but I don't think I've ever seen an actual proper scrim on it. It's unfortunate but it's extremely hard to get away from those same old ctf maps that have been played to death.


Edit: On a side note... I guess they transferred our profiles over? I never actually registered over here yet had the same account and pw. :)

[TerminusEst13]

VelocityCTF is actually just that.

I stand corrected, then!
Wow, can't believe I missed that mapset.

[Ænima]

I'm still waiting for the day people setup real scrims for the domination game mode. There's so much opportunity for real strategy and teamwork in that mode.

Most people love the stdom mapset but I don't think I've ever seen an actual proper scrim on it.

Was that the one with the Diabolical Dice map? I fucking loved that one.

[Zocker]

I don't have a problem with scrims consisting always on the same maps. I think its sad that there basically is only the side which only plays non-doom related mods (that's at least how I call M8BDM, GvHNS, Aow and stuff) and an old-established player base who grow into the competitive scene which repeats the same maps over and over again.

I don't even remember when I last played something that was not from zdoom/daemon and was not fnf...
Doom 2 multiplayer is cool but has its flaws and playing the same wads all day makes it very repetitive (for me). But what makes me sad the most is that Skulltag tried to enrich the game. Adding new gamemodes and new weapons for better weapon balance. I often hear that Minigun is overpowered... it's basically only what the SSG is for the Shotgun but with much less ammo and a delay after finishing shooting.

I think it is the best addition which came with skulltag (and quit with Zandronum) because it's basically just as strong just in a different way. Giving people of a second weapon they can use as their main which is not as avoidable as rockets and plasma rifles are...
"Doom has a great weapon balance" sure thing... Shotgun, Chaingun and Pistols are known for their power and BFG is just retarded.

But what can we expect from a playerbase of a game which is almost 20 years old...
Those who like how things work won't complain and others will either adapt or quit quietly. Both options only strenghen the current system. And because ZDoom/ZDaemon is still the measure of all things I don't see anything changing anywhen.
I occasionally play FNF and that's it. I think it's a great event which breaks through this scheme and shows how much fun, versatileness and creativity this port (has) would have to to offer.

It's a system which keeps itself alive and kills external influences which want to change anything. That all is probably very pessimistic, but it is my observation.