Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

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Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#1

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:30 am

This topic is reminiscent to this topic here over based on the mock thread.

Should Decay be unbanned?

I initially propose this idea to the staff for a reply and they are apprehensive about it which I do not blame them for. I figured they'd need some time to discuss and weigh in the prospect of potentially having Decay return to these forums even under the caveat of supervision. Decay situation is different from mine in the aspect that my appeal presented by Decay was over a different administration; whereas, Decay's permanent removal was by the current over infractions he accrued over a period of time he was advised not to. It has been a year, 1 month, and 4 weeks since Decay's last visible post and in this time-span this community activity has remained somewhat the same. The suppose voices in many private messages that once promise to return when Decay or I were removed has yet to materialized. I believe that these specific people were only after his removal and had little interest in Zandronum's forum and political landscape. I offered the solution as a proponent in keeping his ban permanent despite some of the warnings given to him (by myself included), but an entire year lapsed and I am interested to see if he could return in even the capacity in which I engage people here.

Now in place of this paragraph I am suppose to contrast Decay's ban with those of other inflammatory users to frame a case to dispute his ban, but I do not have one. There has only be sparse conflicts on the forums from specific users and none warrant dredging up history; however, I will present to you what sentiment Decay's activity created that molded or influence not the decision but rather the perspective of Decay's ban. It isn't to paint him in a positive light by no means even I mock Decay for "I do what I want" attitude but it does help to weigh in the victims of Decay's relentless flaming and their "motivations" for never coming around anymore.

Now before I begin I want to point out this isn't a full-call back to these people to defend their platforms. This is to demonstrate their platform in its entirety for a specific point. Don't think I am trying to recreate an argument. You'll see in a second.

Jwarrier's proposition to ban decay
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=6978

Now Jwarrier may have legitimacy but we must really dig deep on whether or not this applies to now or even then. Let's examine the actual proponent because he claimed
Jwarrier wrote: What the admin doesn't know is my account is set to hidden because of Decay and co. I visit the forums very seldom now because I feel they are an extremely uninviting experience.
This is an interesting statement but is it an accurate one? Was Decay's forum activity at the time warranted proactive evasive maneuvers as he'd describe? How much harassment has Decay actually done and why didn't the staff do anything? Was there even a case for it? Jwarrier has 145 post from 2012 to 2017 -- that's 5 years. That's 25 post a year or to invert that's 0.04 worth of 1825 days (not including leap years). The forum stats say 0.08 post a day. He has a total of only 9 topics. He is nowhere near as active as Decay and his account was last seen in 2016 where he was last seen abyssing his own clan and joining in the BE incident. For him to withhold his activity because of someone else in the greater plot of the community is inconsequential (no offense to Jwarrier). He never returned after Decay was banned which effectively made his entire effort pointless. I believe the message is greater than the man so this isn't much to say about Jwarrier so let's move on to another.

https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 212#p95855

Here we have Leonard who harped onto Jwarrier's thread in agreement. This thread he is in was sparked by Decay's relentless attitude to members of the community but what's interesting is that many of the active posters are in favor of Decay's activity. Leonard brought his case in which, like it or not, does highlight Decay's shortcomings as an apparent issue with how the community handles specific users. I am not going to disagree or agree, but I want to instead analyze his activity with Jwarrier. There's a pattern here: Leonard has 132 post. That's 13 post less than Jwarrier's stats with 2 topics one of which was split from the YAY Drama thread featuring Decay. He joined in 2013 approximately 9 months after Jwarrier. His last activity? The BE incident of 2016. Don't you even find this strange? People who withhold their activity LEAVE after Decay is banned? Do they only come around for Decay? For the fighting on the forums? I recall this very thing in a much more infammatory post to Leonard himself. The message is bigger than the men themselves for this isn't a challenge to Leonard but rather a challenge to those who believe what he said.

What is my point?

I contest the sentiment for Decay rather than the ban itself as I believe the year ban was worth the constant crime he committed, but permanent ban probably not. My stance is that this community didn't really get better or worst without Decay it just moved on and everyone else who wanted him gone were already gone before he was. That means their fights, their struggle, and even perceived problems were meaningless as the day they propose them. I don't see Jwarrier anymore. I don't see any of Decay's victims here. Jwarrier figured a better use of his time was Odamex and he's having fun over there and you know what? That's not a bad thing. Everyone should be happy to pursue where they feel happy in, but I don't believe that Decay should be beholden by some imaginary threat from less than collateral users. A spook or fearful speculation on our reputation from people who had no intention of sticking around to begin with. Leonard might have been banned or moderation but Jwarrier was not. He isn't the only one. There's a very vocal minority that believe in the Decay hype, but that's what it is. Hype.

Decay is a loud-mouth and foul mannered player, but he does get things down for his benefit and projects and have been helpful to those around them when he reaches out to them. He is a lot more instrumental here than his detractors and what they perceive. I DO AGREE he needs to shape up and handle some of those criticism better than memeing it up and insulting people so my caveat is definitely probation before he's removed from moderation completely. He may be toxic to some people and a pain in my ass at times, but he does contribute and ultimately that is usually what people scale you on in a situation like that "what have you contributed" and Decay has done quite a bit. I can't guarantee he'll be behaved or reform.. shit he might just flame someone the second he returns, but it's ok. What's another year right?
Last edited by Mobius on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned form the forums?

#2

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:32 am

Why don't we free Sgt. Mark IV, PsiPaula and Capo while we're at it, smh :cry:

I just want my dear friend(s) who dindu nuffin to be set free! Just like you are!

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#3

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:51 am

No bans should ever be permanent; support.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#4

Post by Jenova » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:56 am

The admins banning Decay shows an immense lack of thought and poor moderation. As a community, we must stand up against biased staff members who obviously have it out for more vulnerable members in our community. Decay has been a core content contributor for years, and even though we don't always see eye to eye, he is an important staple in the Zandronum community.

It seems that everyone who has been "bullied" by Decay should grow some thicker skin. An alternative approach could even be turning off their monitor and stepping away from the computer to recompose themselves. Not to mention that Jwarrier contributes very little to this community, and to my knowledge his kids don't contribute anything at all. Is it really our fault that his kids are being harassed if they've literally done nothing to help this dying community? Maybe he should have thought twice before he let them on the computer.

I disagree with the notion to moderate him. We already know the type of content he's going to post -- not to say it's bad; quite the contrary, actually. Decay's opinions, discussions, and arguments come with solid factual evidence to back them up. Just because someone's feelings were hurt doesn't imply that he's wrong in what he's saying. It's with this in mind that I believe all moderation restrictions should be removed from Decay so we can once again get his accurate and unfiltered opinion. Putting a member under moderator approval just means that they aren't really saying what's on their mind.
Last edited by Jenova on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#5

Post by Zakken » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:06 am

The reason why bans aren't permanent is that there is the premise that banned people will learn from their wrongdoings and wise up by the time they're welcomed back. While I'm all for putting him under moderation for a while, his uncivilised vents towards me outside of Zandronum IRC over small details leads me to have little faith in his behaviour improvements, personally. We could see how it goes.

Also, I don't agree that the reasons for banning him back then are no longer valid just because those attacked by him aren't around anymore. The absence of some people don't just erase one's wrongdoings like that. The BE incident was also unrelated to Decay, and it was valid for some of those people to leave because of that.
Jenova wrote:Just because someone's feelings were hurt doesn't imply that he's wrong in what he's saying.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather argue without being called all kinds of insults on the dictionary constantly because some self-imposing people want to show off how intimidating they are. Why is being civilised and arguing like a normal person so undervalued?
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#6

Post by ARGENTVM » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:09 am

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#7

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:17 am

Zakken wrote: his uncivilised vents towards me outside of Zandronum IRC
Irrelevant

Zakken wrote:Also, I don't agree that the reasons for banning him back then are no longer valid just because those attacked by him aren't around anymore. The absence of some people don't just erase one's wrongdoings like that.
That's not the point. The point is that their efforts were in futility BECAUSE they are no longer around. They made the proposition that Decay's removal will have them post much more liberally and yet we see the opposite.
Zakken wrote:The BE incident was also unrelated to Decay, and it was valid for some of those people to leave because of that.
Incorrect. Decay, along with myself, is one of the main proponents to the BE incident in which Jenova advocated for the banning of myself and the former.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#8

Post by nax » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:20 am

Hey guys, despite the massive potential for shitposting I'm gonna try to keep this thread going *on track* as much as possible. I'm very interested (as are others) in a serious attempt at a discussion regarding this. I would please ask people to not meme this or begin using peoples' responses as a way of attacking them or anything other than giving your input and discussing why or why not decay should be unbanned. But if this topic continually gets derailed or it devolves into mudslinging, this thread will be trashed as per other staff as well. So please, reply to this in good faith because it's a good topic and merits the discussion.

Thanks!

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#9

Post by Jenova » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:21 am

Zakken wrote:
Jenova wrote:Just because someone's feelings were hurt doesn't imply that he's wrong in what he's saying.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather argue without being called all kinds of insults on the dictionary constantly because some self-imposing people want to show off how intimidating they are. Why is being civilised and arguing like a normal person so undervalued?
Decay makes it a point to attack the person's argument, not themselves. Just because you don't necessarily agree with him doesn't invalidate his argument. If you're getting upset at someone calling you an idiot over an online doom forum for a 25 year old video game, maybe you should re-evaluate your life choices.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#10

Post by mondobizarrro » Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:40 am

I done have much opinion on decay, he annoys me to a degree, and is a little overcritical at times, but i dont want him to be banned permanently, i wish for him to be unbanned, along with most other people on here like Sgt. Mark IV.

bare in mind im very new to the community too, and my stances on these things may seem on an outsider's point of view, but i don't think banning solves much when its over trolling or just "hateful and insulting content" unless its excessive spam or illegal content like cheese pizza, i don't think perma bans should be a thing

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#11

Post by Zakken » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:30 am

Mobius wrote:Irrelevant
It may not be an objective metric of Decay's behaviour (I did say "personally" at the end, after all), but I'd say it's pretty relevant when it comes to how he is today. He did get banned because of the way he interacted with others, so it's fair and not quite irrelevant for me to bring up my own recent experiences with him when arguing his ban, even if outside of Zandronum.
Mobius wrote:That's not the point. The point is that their efforts were in futility BECAUSE they are no longer around. They made the proposition that Decay's removal will have them post much more liberally and yet we see the opposite.
They left because of another incident, and even the fact they aren't around is not that relevant. Decay did get banned (which is what they wanted, so maybe their efforts weren't in vain), and his ban was made true by the staff, meaning they also agreed that it was for the betterment of the whole community. Holding those "victims" responsible for Decay's ban is a bit misleading and rather unfair as well.
Mobius wrote:Incorrect. Decay, along with myself, is one of the main proponents to the BE incident in which Jenova advocated for the banning of myself and the former.
My apologies; I meant to say that the BE incident wasn't the literal same or at least a concurrent incident as people taking issue with Decay awhile before.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#12

Post by Marcaek » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:38 am

My mention of permanent moderation wasn't a joke: Decay can be a very helpful person when he isn't flying off the handle at individuals he has personal history with or little regard for which becomes quite disruptive. Bringing him back would necessitate that he either instills confidence that he won't cause trouble or has the ability to cause trouble prevented in the first place.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#13

Post by AlexMax » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:38 am

On it's face, I think that Decay should be unbanned from the forums, kept on a short leash. A year is a long time. He didn't cheat, and he's not an unrepentant pox on the community in the way that Capo has been/is/will be forever and ever, amen.

However, personally, I must say that I do not agree with Jenova's borderline hyperbolic defense of bad behavior. I don't think it unreasonable for a social space to have the option of having expectations of decorum. If that's the desire, Decay should be kept on a short leash, and if he steps over the line, I think Moby's prediction of another year ban shouldn't be out of the question. Being a contributor to the community is certainly a positive look, but frankly, I think it's possible to be a community contributor and not find yourself in the middle of trolling matches.
Mobius wrote:
Zakken wrote: his uncivilised vents towards me outside of Zandronum IRC
Irrelevant
It may not be relevant to the decision of letting him back onto the forums, but his behavior in the recent past can certainly be a useful indicator of how closely the administration should be watching him, and how lenient the administration decides to be if he loses his cool. Somebody who appears to be on his best behavior and has a moment's indiscretion might be handled differently than a habitual line stepper.
Mobius wrote:That's not the point. The point is that their efforts were in futility BECAUSE they are no longer around. They made the proposition that Decay's removal will have them post much more liberally and yet we see the opposite.
I don't think that the calculus should be "will these people come back if we keep Decay banned?" Some people clearly have made up their minds already.

Instead, the calculus that at the very least should be considered "will Decay chase other people away from the community or port, and if so, how much do we care?" That might also factor into how lenient the administration decides to be with him from now on.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#14

Post by Mobius » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:50 am

AlexMax wrote:On it's face, I think that Decay should be unbanned from the forums, kept on a short leash. A year is a long time. He didn't cheat, and he's not an unrepentant pox on the community in the way that Capo has been/is/will be forever and ever, amen.

However, personally, I must say that I do not agree with Jenova's borderline hyperbolic defense of bad behavior. I don't think it unreasonable for a social space to have the option of having expectations of decorum. If that's the desire, Decay should be kept on a short leash, and if he steps over the line, I think Moby's prediction of another year ban shouldn't be out of the question. Being a contributor to the community is certainly a positive look, but frankly, I think it's possible to be a community contributor and not find yourself in the middle of trolling matches.
Well as stated in my post I know exactly how Decay is and he has an unremitting attitude of "I does what I want." I just really made the proposal since it has been a year and some time to review whether he should be coming back. The arguments I brought up was to follow the sentiment of a weary past that was hardly substantial then. Except for his actual violating post that shit was real.
Alexmax wrote:It may not be relevant to the decision of letting him back onto the forums, but his behavior in the recent past can certainly be a useful indicator of how closely the administration should be watching him, and how lenient the administration decides to be if he loses his cool. Somebody who appears to be on his best behavior and has a moment's indiscretion might be handled differently than a habitual line stepper.
I disagree for a multitude of reasons especially from whom it is coming from but that can be for some other topic. The key words Zakken used in that sentence was "outside of Zandronum" which is tantamount to irrelevancy. The staff will agree on this. They don't give a shit how he treats people provided it isn't on their forum or any medium that they are responsible for unless he's a proven liability. There's only a very few of those cases and as you said Decay isn't one of them.
Alexmax wrote:I don't think that the calculus should be "will these people come back if we keep Decay banned?" Some people clearly have made up their minds already.
I think you are missing it fundamentally. The idea wasn't that they will come back. The idea was that they were never here to begin with. That's why I brought up their forum activity because his ban pertains to the forum itself. The very argument of Jwarrier being stealthy to avoid Decay is purely forum related to which Jwarrier does not have much activity in.
Alexmax wrote:Instead, the calculus that at the very least should be considered "will Decay chase other people away from the community or port, and if so, how much do we care?" That might also factor into how lenient the administration decides to be with him from now on.
That is part of the sentence above really. Those people were not around much to begin with and were only around FOR Decay as stated in my original post. Notice how they were only active to discuss Decay and have been gone as long as he has been banned, but yet spoke about how they and others might come around if he was gone. We both know the latter has and will not occur.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#15

Post by Razgriz » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:01 am

My position is the same as Marcaek, except I would extend it to all habitual shit posters who don't have an extreme offense next to their name. It's great because as I already said, they have to post the way I want and if they don't like it, well they don't have to log in and can continue to pretend as if they're banned if they hate it so much. There is no loss on either side, because it forces offenders to post in respect to the rules, and if they continue to pretend to be banned instead, then anyone who doesn't like them posting can be happy about that. Everyone wins. Permanent post moderation is the solution to quelling problematic behavior, and our forums are small and dead enough that it makes it a viable solution.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#16

Post by nax » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:06 am

Mobius wrote:I disagree for a multitude of reasons especially from whom it is coming from but that can be for some other topic. The key words Zakken used in that sentence was "outside of Zandronum" which is tantamount to irrelevancy. The staff will agree on this. They don't give a shit how he treats people provided it isn't on their forum or any medium that they are responsible for unless he's a proven liability. There's only a very few of those cases and as you said Decay isn't one of them.
While you are right to imply that IRC rules are "separate" from Forum rules, where you are not so right is how relevant it is. While staff would not ban Decay on the forums for a remark he made on IRC, Decay is already banned permanently. This means that there needs to be some justification for overturning the permanent ban in the first place. One of those reasons would be that said person is now willing to reintegrate into the community. As AlexMax has said (and witnessed by myself and others) Decay's behavior has not given me any reason for why I would agree to him being unbanned.

Also, are you sure that Decay even wants to be unbanned? It'd seem to me that if he did, his behavior would have changed somewhat and he would have appealed for it. I suppose what I'm looking for in this discussion is evidence that Decay wants to reintegrate into this community.

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#17

Post by Fused » Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:03 am

He's going to get rebanned very quickly anyway. Go cut the leash I guess, idc.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#18

Post by Ivan » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:31 am

I think he should be unbanned and not put on moderation just so I can see how long he'll last this time. I give it 3 days.
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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#19

Post by Doomkid » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:44 am

Decay can be a very helpful person when he isn't flying off the handle at individuals he has personal history with or little regard for
Decay flying off the handle at those he has little regard for is very helpful in that many laughs are had by all most!

I already said I wanted him unbanned in the other thread, but I doubt he even has any reason to post more than once in a blue moon. Maybe if we end up with some new faces around here he'd see a reason to pop in but short of that, I dunno. The ban should be lifted regardless. That's my 2.5 cents

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Re: Should Decay be unbanned from the forums?

#20

Post by Galactus » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:33 am

Should unban SGT Mark IV as well, dude arguably contribueted the most to online Doom compared to everyone else.

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