Is the Old holding back progress?

[turborektator]

Hmm, so should i resurrect this?

Lol welp i thought this is all about dueling. Also seriously this is nice map pack, third map from q3 i always liked. But the problem where is something new? Like 3Dfloors and shit? We really dont have problem with add something new to CTF, and its nice already. See new core2 wad which is coming. We need some interesting NS duel maps.

[Arctangent]

Also what defines NS outside of 3d floors and DMflags?

I don't think 3D floors really define NS ( more so the fact that modern features like such at them are allowed ) so it's really just the DMflags.

Which actually are a big deal. Jumping dramatically increases the amount of vertical mobility players have ( in OS, you can only go up where the map wants you to go up, through stairs, lifts, or teleporters ) as well as, in Zandronum due to its physics changes from ZDoom, horizontal mobility via bunny hopping. Item respawn is also an extremely huge deal; you could remove all non-weapon items from an OS map and it would play the exact same past the first minute mark where all of them are gone anyway. The fact that even something as small as a clip or a stimpack will return after it's picked up makes player life go so much longer, even if instant kills via SSG or RL are still extremely common; not just because that means that the chaingun can be used for a couple more shots or a player can restore health without dying, but also because said player will try to remove themselves from combat to head towards the respawned item to be able to collect it without issue. This in turn makes hot spots around items, especially more powerful ones, which actually make it harder to remove yourself from combat to recoup.

[Zanieon]

Lol welp i thought this is all about dueling. Also seriously this is nice map pack, third map from q3 i always liked. But the problem where is something new? Like 3Dfloors and shit? We really dont have problem with add something new to CTF, and its nice already. See new core2 wad which is coming. We need some interesting NS duel maps.

Except of the exact 3D floors (which don't compose NS mainly) all other requirement does match that maps (New textures, music, flow of the map), which core2 you mentioned does the same, it doesn't have 3D Floors but boom bridges, which i still consider OS because those were accepted by everyone without any complain and is a ancient feature.

And well, that is just my try on CTF, but theres nothing that can block me from doing this same style for duels.

EDIT: tbh i just don't used 3D Floors because i'm thinking in who will play on software, and if i remember well, sloped 3D Floors isn't rendered on software yet.

[Strych6]

Oldschool duel has kept me here for quite a few years. I don't think 'ugly' accurately represents the classic style maps. They're (mostly) quite attractive. NS aesthetic might have potential, but it tends to be too flashy. If one cant make a pretty map with oldschool rules, it's definitely the mappers fault. I remember the only maps I ended up favoring from MS' NS duelset were classic style.

More newschool rubbish will have Doom competing with half life, but they are separate beasts. Limitations define the experience and even allow content to breed faster. The limitations set in oldschool are handy tools for the mapper and player. Windows are perfect with no freelook, for example. Experienced duelers might not want to imagine a 3d building when predicting the players position.

Sure we can try NS again, but its up to all of us to make maps up to par. And honestly, I havent often seen it. I dont blame us, OS mapping is both simple and difficult.

[Razgriz]

One thing I always thought about is that essentially the problems lie with people and what everyone has played for several hundred years on ST/Zan and Zdaemon and the standards established. Aside from the fact that the standard on ZD was that everyone must be good with the SSG, you also have to be good on the most played, simple, and generally very fraggy maps with no jump and mouselook to ever really gauge how good you are vs others. Then you had ZDDL up and active which essentially set the idea that this is the way duel is supposed to play, and that the goal posts were these freak duelists like Chewy, Dev, JKist, Ocelot, and whoever else from the scene at the time essentially raping 95% of the competitive player base with general ease. At some point I suppose that the standard had drifted to ST and caught traction for some reason, and also became the standard there as well, even adapting some ZD like functions to make it even more alike.

So as a result of everyone being used to playing fraggy simple maps, using mostly (and sometimes only) the SSG and that it has history as a standard, it's why anything new usually never gains massive attention or praise. Nobody wants to think, nobody wants to change up their weapon usage, they only want to play in their comfort zone using 1 weapon that they know how to use. It's why you get players like AO who can only shoot but no brain, there's several people like him running around and it just isn't in duel, CTF suffers from the same thing with 01, 04, 08, 14, 20, 29, 31.

There's an inherent fear of not trying something different/new because people are bad at it initially, and they don't want to be seen as a bad player for sucking or they don't understand/want to understand how to be good which is not surprising, there's not an established standard for it, so in that mindset why should they? They'll go play Odamex and beat up on nubhat and feel good about themselves because they want to play Doom2.exe with other people with ancient standards that really are not as fun as NOS (and this is coming from a guy who started in 2006 and barely managed to break the old OS gameplay and started using freelook and jumping within the last month).

It would really be good to see something different map and gameplay wise instead of having maps that flow and look like the old maps everyone plays until their great great grandchildren can beat them. The only real way to get more players in is to acquire players who are willing to try and get new players who are fresh on the scene, then set a standard of playing via a league of some sort. Aside from that, in this community, there is not too much more you can do.

On the Odamex note - it's honestly only active because the active player base thinks that is where the activity is. Remember when IDL went from Oda -> Zan because Zandro was supposed to have a far more active player base (and activity overall). Everything bounced back to Oda because now everyone thinks that is where the activity is, and they're willing to play with all of the bugs present in the port just because they think that is where everyone is at. Very fickle player base in reality.

[Ru5tK1ng]

@Water

I agree, part of the problem is that people don't want to leave their comfort zone. This also applies to other modes like CTF as well. I can't recall how much whining occurred whenever a new map was played/tested with the old IDL crowd. Even seasons post-ZD had the same issues with people really just disliking something because it wasn't their favorite or because they couldn't point and click with ease. Sure players are allowed to be as lazy as they want and play however they want. We can also call them out on that as well.

@Rosking

Relying on autoaim is just a bad gamble. Once I fully went to mouse look in CTF back in 2011, it was hard to even try to duel. It definitely allows for full control of one's aim and makes rockets at least more viable if they can be launched at different angles instead of just straight with a slight guide from autoaim. I think bunnyhop works well in Quake because of how much more projectile based the game play is. Sure, you have rails and lg, but the main weapon arguably is the Rocket Launcher. As for Doom, sr40/50 and hitscans really just make the game what it is. I think the idea of BH would work better in a mod or game mode other than duel.

Why continue to play doom if you want to phase out old school?

The only thing that needs to be phased out is the mentality that if someone makes a duel map, it has to be in Boom or Vanilla. Mapper shouldn't have to restrict themselves to the tired old way of making a duel map. I'm not saying they should use every linedef action available in a ZDoom config, but even small things like no-stop teles or teleporting rockets can spice up a map if utilized properly. One doesn't HAVE to use 3d floors, but the option should be there.

You do realize what game you are playing right? I myself play a little NS every once in a while, but the passion lies with OS feel and OS settings. The moment these are gone is the moment I move onto another game. There are way better NS games out there.

Let's see, what am I playing these days? LMS: Not really Doom. ZDoom Wars: Doom only in name. CTF: Definitely not vanilla. No one really plays 'DooM', they are playing modifications of the Doom. The core engine is still there and that's the whole point I'm making. Duel can remain Doom even with slight tweaks to gameplay. What exactly do you mean by OS feel and settings? Do you mean pointing and clicking with an SSG? Random damage? CTF isn't OS in the least bit; this was established years ago. Whatever port you duel on today is nothing like dueling on .EXE. Your perception of what OS exactly is isn't so cut and dry.

Essentially what 'OS' really is today is just a skeleton of doom2.exe. Multiplayer ports simply 'try' to make their settings OS-like(.EXE). This effort to hang onto the old hinders any type of progression mapwise and gameplay wise. I guarantee if you were to lose all of your client side bells and whistles in an effort to duplicate the EXE experience, you probably wouldn't like it as much as you would think. Also, what is an NS game? NS doesn't even have meaning anymore honestly and as time goes on it's annoying to even use the abbreviation.

Have you tried Chocolate Doom? It's pretty fun and more OS than any of the ZDoom based ports out there.

But lets take a moment to look beyond the opinions and just look at events that can show us simple facts. Yes, nearly 75% of all players currently on Zandronum at anytime are playing NS adaptions. Now how about the tournaments or competitive play? Anybody notice a sharp decline as of late? Odamex is currently a doomed port. There is nobody there to make changes, fix errors. However it still has the OS feel and (mostly) non-fucked up game play. [STFU Jwar not everybody went to odamex!] No, but they sure as hell finish tournaments without having to pull subs out of thin air, change rules, etc.

What I am saying is this, where would doom be without OS? I wouldn't want to know.

Yeah, tournaments on Oda do finish I know this for a fact since I ran many nearly 3 years ago when the port had a peak of non-ctf activity. However, even NADA dragged on from the last time I took note and things didn't finish as smoothly as they used to. That's how tournaments have always been for the past decade. Things will be going fine for a good while and then there will be a long slump because people either get tired of running them or playing them or they just move on. However, I'm not sure what tournaments you are talking about. NADA events? That's not going as strongly as it did in the beginning. Monthly tournaments? I only see a December tournament from last year on the Oda forums. WDL? That's not duel.

Final note, you can answer your own question easily since the duel you play today isn't really 'OS', it is just pretending to be.


@Capo, you are stupid and cannot read and you can't map for shit either.

@Alien

The funny part is after I watched the demos of the matches, most of the players didn't even control the items. You can still win and ignore them apparently. Well, maybe not YOU.

Thanks for the credit, but I didn't make up the basis for the mode: I didn't create item respawn and freelook. I simply attempted to revamp the 'alien game flow' that existed far before you even played (the good old days).

I don't understand how something simply having item respawn = Quake rip off. You played in that tournament I ran and I'm sure you didn't see any of the following: railgun, lg, gl, quad damage, bunny hopping, shitty ssg. The game play featured in that tournament was far more doom like than you give it credit. It's interesting to note that there were players such as Noskill who dueled back in the 90s with itemrespawn on certain maps. Altdeath did exist and the idea of item respawn is far older than you think.

Finally, I agree with what you say regarding map design. That's one of the points I was making in my original post. Mappers should ditch the idea that a duel map has to be strictly vanilla or Boom.

@Ænima

That's part of the problem these days. There really isn't any meaning to 'NS' anymore. The NS people think of was around 10 years ago when I was dueling daily and that in itself isn't really 'new' anymore. I think the guys that posted below you have the right ideas. The thing is, you can grab DMflags from NJ and throw up an 'OS' server. For anything else, there's really no guidelines.

[Doomkid]

I don't think anyone is saying "replace OS," rather, "why can't we play something else alongside it"?

I agree fully. For years I've been focused on OS deathmatch, and recently expanding my horizons has proven to be very fun and mind-opening. I wish more people were willing to do the same. You can have new toys, and love em - Doesn't mean you suddenly hate your old toys.

Wanna play oldschool stuff? Odamex

Wanna play oldschool stuff without being so weird on bugs as Doom back on 1993? ZDaemon

Wanna go with me to Futureland? Zandronum

I think this is a bit of a generalisation. You're right that both Zdaemon AND Odamex have a mainly OS focus, but Odamex is better for laggers. I will stand by that sentiment til death! I ping 350+ almost everywhere and Odamex gives me the smoothest ride. Then again, Zdaemon has survival mode and a few other unique features, I feel they're both worth having installed, unless you dislike OS.

But, I'm known for enjoying all 3 ports. I feel the same way about ports as I do about DMflags.. Why is it so bad to just enjoy all 3 alongside eachother? I don't think anyone would ever deny that Zandronum has the most features and biggest playerbase by a long shot, which is why I'm gravitating back here more and more. It's nice having seemingly unlimited possiblities with mapping/multiplayer/etc, but I'll never fully "ditch out" on Oda / ZD unless they stop being maintained.

NOS made by Ru5t featured item control-based maps like Quake, I don't know how to play such maps and don't want to play such maps, and if I wanted to, I'd go to either OpenArena or QW and not Doom.

I'm working on some 100% vanilla compat maps, but with NOS flags in mind.. But playing them with OS flags should still be fun too, all it does is leave more opportunities for different gameplay styles/skillsets. You could play the same maps with both flags and still have a good time. (This is why I always give 'suggested' DMflags rather than saying they're a 'must'.)

(screenshots)

I think these look really nice!

[Strych6]

While I adore the competitive scene here, a competitive mapping scene will eventually spell progress.

[Ru5tK1ng]

More newschool rubbish will have Doom competing with half life, but they are separate beasts.

Uh, what does that even mean? That doesn't even make sense. I didn't know HL and Doom were in competition with each other.

Limitations define the experience and even allow content to breed faster. The limitations set in oldschool are handy tools for the mapper and player. Windows are perfect with no freelook, for example.

Judas SG top spawn is calling you as well as Aurora. Definitely not perfect at all.

Experienced duelers might not want to imagine a 3d building when predicting the players position.

That's possibly due to that person's inability to visualize beyond 2.5D.

Sure we can try NS again, but its up to all of us to make maps up to par. And honestly, I havent often seen it. I dont blame us, OS mapping is both simple and difficult.

I would agree that is a start. An attempt to establish a currently non-existing standard of quality for non-OS maps should occur first. Btw, what exactly is competitive mapping??



I forgot to address this bit in my previous post:

p.p.s. in relation to original Doom, NOS is a mod. Be ready to your awesome competitive upgrade being met like a mod. Just remembered how Wirtualnosc (a EL> member, not a really good dueler) was surprisingly okay with NOS.

How is changing a few DMflags equate to a mod such as GvH?

[ZZYZX]

tl;dr: needs moar NOS servers, brainplay duelers are nearly nonexistent, yes NOS is very different from Doom(OS)
warning: unorganized raw autistic thought process incoming

p.p.s. in relation to original Doom, NOS is a mod. Be ready to your awesome competitive upgrade being met like a mod. Just remembered how Wirtualnosc (a EL> member, not a really good dueler) was surprisingly okay with NOS.

How is changing a few DMflags equate to a mod such as GvH?

Enabling item respawn in duels changes the game process almost as much as adding flags made CTF from TDM, except there's no flag.

On the Odamex note - it's honestly only active because the active player base thinks that is where the activity is.

It's also active because some alternatively gifted people say that it's a best port and (oh god) don't mean any sarcasm there.

Just checked the server list in case I was blind, the only occurrences of "NOS" in the list is "Chillax w/ Wrath of Cronos 1.5Cbeta3" and some random BE server called "Noscope"
Instead there are countless Duel32 variations (and Duel64 in the form of Jacob's Ladder which recently came here from ZD).

Perhaps having some NOS servers for casual duels would help to get competition-ready players? Or at least players that are a bit experienced with the game mode, instead of instantly throwing people into a *serious* tournament and then wondering that it worked, but not as well as it could.

Short side note. In my rather short Zandronum experience starting approximately in 2009 I've seen only one player whose playing style actually differs from general "predict their next move, evade their shot, get close and kaboom! reload", and this player is Combinebobnt.
As for everyone else... Know various neat tricks to use maps to their advantage — yes, move faster — true, react better — sure, have godlike aim — yup. But no fundamental differences from my playing style which rounds up to hunting down a player and shooting my SSG at them while trying to evade theirs.
And the reason for that is that it is actually sufficient to play the game on a decent level, and that's how you get czech capogods.

That's all about duels, CTF isn't all that bad, mainly since there are still active good players (good not as in group of ~20 people who beat everyone else, like in duels, but as in two or three players, presence of which in a team guarantees victory in most cases; meaning you-know-who). And there's still some good level to get on, instead of seeing the aforementioned 20 people with equal playing style and a bit different reflexes.

[Watermelon]

tl;dr: needs moar NOS servers, brainplay duelers are nearly nonexistent, yes NOS is very different from Doom(OS)
warning: unorganized raw autistic thought process incoming

p.p.s. in relation to original Doom, NOS is a mod. Be ready to your awesome competitive upgrade being met like a mod. Just remembered how Wirtualnosc (a EL> member, not a really good dueler) was surprisingly okay with NOS.

How is changing a few DMflags equate to a mod such as GvH?

Enabling item respawn in duels changes the game process almost as much as adding flags made CTF from TDM, except there's no flag.

On the Odamex note - it's honestly only active because the active player base thinks that is where the activity is.

It's also active because some alternatively gifted people say that it's a best port and (oh god) don't mean any sarcasm there.

Just checked the server list in case I was blind, the only occurrences of "NOS" in the list is "Chillax w/ Wrath of Cronos 1.5Cbeta3" and some random BE server called "Noscope"
Instead there are countless Duel32 variations (and Duel64 in the form of Jacob's Ladder which recently came here from ZD).

Perhaps having some NOS servers for casual duels would help to get competition-ready players? Or at least players that are a bit experienced with the game mode, instead of instantly throwing people into a *serious* tournament and then wondering that it worked, but not as well as it could.

Short side note. In my rather short Zandronum experience starting approximately in 2009 I've seen only one player whose playing style actually differs from general "predict their next move, evade their shot, get close and kaboom! reload", and this player is Combinebobnt.
As for everyone else... Know various neat tricks to use maps to their advantage — yes, move faster — true, react better — sure, have godlike aim — yup. But no fundamental differences from my playing style which rounds up to hunting down a player and shooting my SSG at them while trying to evade theirs.
And the reason for that is that it is actually sufficient to play the game on a decent level, and that's how you get czech capogods.

That's all about duels, CTF isn't all that bad, mainly since there are still active good players (good not as in group of ~20 people who beat everyone else, like in duels, but as in two or three players, presence of which in a team guarantees victory in most cases; meaning you-know-who). And there's still some good level to get on, instead of seeing the aforementioned 20 people with equal playing style and a bit different reflexes.

A neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior. Parents usually notice signs in the first two years of their child's life. The signs typically develop gradually, but some children will reach their developmental milestones at a normal pace and then regress.

[Strych6]

More newschool rubbish will have Doom competing with half life, but they are separate beasts.

Uh, what does that even mean? That doesn't even make sense. I didn't know HL and Doom were in competition with each other.

Hyperbole referring to the future NS doom experience being more comparable to half life than doom. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a complete fundamentalist. Im ok with jumping, mouse support and various other things. Who's to draw the line? Hopefully nobody any further. It was an emotional let down coming to learn of 3D floor & model support. I like the way things are, we just need new maps and new players.

Judas SG top spawn is calling you as well as Aurora. Definitely not perfect at all.

Judas has never called to me once. I am not accepting calls from Judas.

That's possibly due to that person's inability to visualize beyond 2.5D.

If you're so beyond 2.5D, deep six your meddlesome liberal dreams and join the half life community.

[Ru5tK1ng]

tl;dr: needs moar NOS servers, brainplay duelers are nearly nonexistent, yes NOS is very different from Doom(OS)
warning: unorganized raw autistic thought process incoming

Well at least you're honest.

Judas has never called to me once. I am not accepting calls from Judas.

I think you missed the point. Your claim was that windows (and inherently heights) are perfect. I gave you examples that proves you wrong.

If you're so beyond 2.5D, deep six your meddlesome liberal dreams and join the half life community.

You have an unhealthy obsession with Half-Life. What exactly is wrong with stirring up discussion? Your argument (one without point) was that players wouldn't want to visualize players on a 3d plane. I am simply stating that's a shortcoming of their abilities and nothing more. You should calm down on the aggression, whatever points you are trying to make aren't coherent.

P.S. Doom and Half-Life don't even run on the same engine, need better comparisons.

[Doomkid]

Why the heck are people comparing Doom with any flags to Half Life? I'm so damn confused, the games are very different..

I don't think anyone is saying "replace OS," rather, "why can't we play something else alongside it"?

I guess no on read (or acknowledged) this post.. I fucking love OS but I also love variety, and I think NOS is a great way to change up the formula, and would be happy to play maps with those flags in mind.. I'm stunned anyone could oppose that.

[Strych6]

This forum's view on aggression is kind of incoherent.
I do not want to list other 3D first person shooters, and with good reason. The repetition is significant.

Most of your original post is agreeable, and it's about more than just hopping dimensions, I understand. So forget about it. I do appreciate the heart behind wanting more vitality in the community, but generally concerned we'll lose what's good and fragile.

[Ivan]

You people need to calm down and learn to try new things, it won't take your OS virginity away.

[Strych6]

You people need to calm down and learn to try new things, it won't take your OS virginity away.

Actually, OS duelers would be the ones migrating. So, with this low count of dedicated players, there will be loss. Erotica or not.

[IdeIdoom]

If it looks so easy to replicate without 3D floors then show me how you would do it.

It's just a sketch, things do need to be moved around and spaces do need to be made better use of. I wanted to make it so that bridges would create pathways that intersect but can't just be jumped to and fro.

It's also just something I was dicking around with. It was something that was sitting on my drive that I added to this morning. I realize it's probably not the best example of what a NS map could be but I wanted to contribute what I could.

Also what defines NS outside of 3d floors and DMflags?

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]
Fucked it up a bit, but you get the idea. All of those bridges use invis bridges. NS is an entire new way to play the duels etc.

Heck, CTF is by standards NS, from what I remember.

[Arctangent]

Enabling item respawn in duels changes the game process almost as much as adding flags made CTF from TDM, except there's no flag.

This is one of the dumbest things I've read in this topic, surpassing capo's and danzoa's posts combined.

Frankly I'll accept the point he was trying to make, but that comparison downright sad.

[Razgriz]

You people need to calm down and learn to try new things, it won't take your OS virginity away.

Actually, OS duelers would be the ones migrating. So, with this low count of dedicated players, there will be loss. Erotica or not.

Why would they migrate when they can still play the same stuff? Wait why are people thinking that there is a push for complete eradication of OS? Nobody is saying "Take down all Duel32, nobody is allowed to play OS". Jwar also mention similar things, so I'm not sure why people are jumping to conclusions.