Public image

[Jenova]

• - 99% of people playing Zandronum don't care about any of these "issues" (are these even issues?)
  - People will play what they like, including mods, you can't (and shouldn't want to) change this
  - The community is filled with 12-16 year olds, so having a retarded community shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone
  - If someone gets offended because they suck at Doom then they should probably go back to Tumblr
  - Most users will have trouble even reading this topic because it sounds like every fourth word was run through a thesaurus

I sort of read the chat log and why did Mifu even bring any of this up? Less people are playing Zandronum now than over the summer because a lot of the players went back to school. Wow, shocking.

Also, less people are playing "good" mods because your mods aren't good. "Good" is a subjective term, and most of the players on this port are 12-16. Tailor your in-progress mods to these people and they will be popular.

[Ru5tK1ng]

I sort of read the chat log and why did Mifu even bring any of this up? Less people are playing Zandronum now than over the summer because a lot of the players went back to school. Wow, shocking.

Indeed, there's even proofs of it courtesy of Zalewa's stat collection:

[Catastrophe]

So we actually have a higher playercount than last year? Sweet.

[mifu]

why did Mifu even bring any of this up?

Hmm thats a good question. It's probably because that I heard a few things along the lines of "the community is shit" quite a few times (few times too many) and I thought it warranted discussion. But this thread plus the meeting we had proves we are actually are OK and I was worrying about nothing so I can rest easily.

As Mobius stated though, should keep the discussion rolling

[Laggy Blazko]

Seems like zandronum 3.0 would help a lot. How can we average zanbabbies help? Do you still need testers?

[Marcaek]

Testers are always in demand

[ZZYZX]

hi, I had many people in PM (a whopping total of two) who asked me to state my unbiased opinion on this thread.

So I think the main argument here is the mental state one, as it's the one that gets remembered most frequently by ZDoom, Doomworld and even ZDaemon people.
tl;dr we can't do anything about it without getting even worse image of having nazi admins, and as such IMO there is no point in this discussion at all. Doom competitive will die soon, but this is delayed by presence of coop. Coop won't die soon so it doesn't matter what others think. Also praise Torr Samaho.

• The community's mental state is alarming compared to other doom communities

Well, first, this is a Skulltag era myth, just like JohnZombie's "ponies everywhere".
All the pretenders and retards were long gone by the time I started playing, and this was 6 years ago already. The exceptions here are pretty irregular, and not any more frequent than in any other community.
We can't really do much if all other communities failed to notice that Skulltag ended.

Second, there will always be a problem with community participants' manners in online games.

In Doomworld or especially ZDoom, or any other offline community, people who participate in the community would be generally adult people (simply because of Doomworld specifics) or modders (ZDoom's case).
The point about modders is that people who can code usually have a bit of a brain to not engage in troll discussions or shitstorms, even though their opinions and actions are still often...questionable. But not on a regular basis, no.
Anyway, then, people who aren't nice enough would get banned and then no one will ever hear of them.
The key point: banned people stay banned and if you only use your favourite forum you can easily forget that they existed.

Now, in Zandronum, we also have players, which by default have far lower standards, especially competitive players.
And even if we ban them from the forums for bad/stupid behaviour, they continue to use IRC and play the game, they might as well group in outside chat rooms like TS, etc, and their stupidity will still leak through.
The key point: Zandronum is multiplayer and allows free ingame conversation, so banned people continue to participate in the community by other means not controlled by Zandronum moderators, and it's very hard to get masterbanned just for being dumb or trolling all the time.

Third, Zandronum is in fact still in it's good phase thanks to it's cooperative/mods side. In the bad phase, all players are Nautilus-like and aggressively scare off any normal player that tries to enter.
Then the staff can't even ban the bad players because all players are bad, so no new people enter.
I've seen this in my Russian competitive RTS/RPG server. The server itself lived since 1999 to 2016, and I was in the staff since 2012. The bad phase started in 2010 and continued for few years, well, the server is dead now.
Over all these years the online count lowered from 240 to 16, with all these remaining people being concentrated stupidity, aggression and nerding.
This is how competitive online games end. We don't have this yet. I'd say Zandronum is the best it could be right now.

[Galactus]

Anyone who refuses to play a game, because of its community is retarded. You play a game to play the fucking game not to make friends.

[Marcaek]

Mulitplayer gaming is a social exercise. You're playing with other people who are looking for the same experience you are (unless you're a misanthrope or sociopath or something)

[Laggy Blazko]

Exactly. Otherwise someone would justify cheating by saying "I'm having fun and I don't care if other people are".

[Slim]

Well yeah, the entire point of online multiplayer is to play your favorite games and socialize with people who share the same taste as you. You might make friends along the way, or you could be looking for someone to test your skills against. Or be someone's pocket medic.

[Sean]

(unless you're a misanthrope or sociopath or something)

Hey I'm not that bad

[Myrra]

Hi folks!

I created a login here just to write a few paragraphs for anybody interested. At least one is ok :-)

My short story how I've found this site: some years ago I wanted to play Doom again, but DosBox wasn't working properly. So I had loaded GZDoom instead, played from time to time, then saw Brutal Doom mod and Zandronum mentioned in the review video. Then almost by coincidence Doomseeker. Have played some time online (and since the new Doom engines are complex to master, made hard times to some other players -- sorry guys, I'm doing my best :-o). Than found this website and spent more time reading than playing (weird, right?)

Here is one of a (free) communities developing software I took a closer look on. I work in IT for many years but also for a long time I'm involved deeply in management and other related activities: so communities, their dynamic, successes/failures, confidence, communication methods (which is an interesting topic by itself), stuff/staff, core people/guests/trolls etc. are very appealing to me. I can assure you dealing with people is *pretty much harder* than coding - I regard debugging the production site as a relax time. Humans are an attractive subject, computers on the other hand are deterministic systems and simple in nature.

And so I've come across your metaphorical questions "does it have a sense?", "who cares anyway?", "where do we going?", "what to do?" etc. materialized in this thread and IRC log(s). Since these are the topics distinguishing between "the creator" and "a consumer", it made me think during my long night drivings.

When we played Doom about 25 years ago, we connected two PC's using parallel cable and whoa -- that was something! Novell IPX/SPX was the norm and internet with its TCP/IP a newborn. People have got fascinated by eMail and forums. HDD was about 40MB. Funny. Doom was a shocking game (as Wolf 3D before). It was all about the technology and 3D. But later, it was a prophetic move from ID Software to release the source code. And now we live in fantastic time when people are connected throughout the world, cooperating with each other, creating great software based on this legacy. I see an organic growth when tired ones are replaced by others willing to finish their work, dead ends and living branches emerging from nowhere. People working hard to bring new stuff, sacrificing spare time, hobbies, families and sometimes friends. Here I found a "pure example" since Doom in general is a "pure fun" and you guys are not working for profit.

Which leads me back to the users here, mentioned questions and discussions. And here is my point of view. Over the time I learned my staff requires a few simple things: goals to achieve, encouragement, positive feedback. Setting (mutual) goal is the best way to push forward, encouragement is a blessing from authority, and feedback is a subtle way to tell yourself "I did a good job". Subtle since you might think "there are the others to judge" but in fact it's you in the first place to appreciate the hard work. Don't question other people if they are interested enough -- it's you again in the first place to be cohesive -- and I always find it amusing how people value this. Maybe its the first and last virtue leader has to master -- failure to do so means you are doomed (sic). Don't be distracted by everyday trolls, people come and go, expect and respect that and you won't be disappointed. Enjoy your work and others will follow. Takes a lot of patience, a lot of sacrifices, it's a never ending process but it pays off.

For example, a point mentioned here (somewhere) is a legacy of your outcome. There are modders trying to "spoil" hard work already done, but probably some of them are learning the way to do it right. The hard way, I must say, like any young person ;-) Don't be afraid, share your results. I personally measure success of a manager by success of his/her subordinates. This way you come across quite different ideas and move forward with the whole "community", be it the team in a company or the open source. Eventually someone will follow and bring your work to another level. If it appeals to you, why not someone else, right?

You see, there are in fact no simple answers, only an approach. But I see future as a very bright one, people freeing from a lot of (mandatory) work, more guys (and girls) willing to push for a more sensible way of life and others capable of finance them, using new ways like kickstarter or patronage. Idea hard to grasp with a current state of mind.

Anyway, I wrote this with simple intend to thank you all for the hard work, I really like it, and encourage you in your project. And surely I'm not the only one, it's just that people complain more than appreciate -- and I took the challenge to write it down. Remember, happiness is affordable by anyone, it's simply a state of mind. Be proud of what you've achieved so far and look positively for the future.

Myrra

[Ænima]

Cool story, bro.


Why did you post in THIS thread though? Seems kinda spambotty ...

[ARGENTVM]

Cool story, bro.


Why did you post in THIS thread though? Seems kinda spambotty ...

Because it has to do with public image.

[doomista]

I know that I came across this topic a bit too late, but I feel like I can add some thoughs to the discussion. I am doomer for a quite some time. My first non-email online account was on a regional doom forum and my nick tells a lot about my age back then. I love DM and I usually don't play anything else (at least not for longer than 5 minutes) and still I am no pro compared to people in competitive. The best I could say is that I can stand my ground at times. I've got friends who are willing to play DM with me from time to time and they are great example of why nobody new wants to play competitive.

There is simply gap too big between noobs and pros. And IMHO this gap would much smaller if the pros would swallow some portion of their pride. For example - the infamous Respawn Protection. Pros hate it because it gives the lesser players opportunity to storm somewhere and kill them disregarding any collateral damage. Pros also hates bots, for whatever reason (btw chatting can be muted for bots). But if there were like one or two servers just for beginners and those servers were promoted enough (FrontPage notification), it could attract beginners to try DM. Also we need bots on servers out of sheer principle. I own a server that has always 2 bots present on it. Anytime I can play DM and most of the time it takes only 15-20 minutes for couple other guys to connect. I definitely would not idle on an empty DM server for 20 minutes only to play duel with one random guy.

Second thing. I am only registered here. I don't have the time to read doomworld or any number of other forums and search them for new exciting mods or wait for next Cacowards. We should actively promote good mods on Zandro FrontPage and I don't mean forums, I mean simply zandronum.com. Whoever will come to that page will, instead of a quite pointless slideshow with links to forum/bugtracker/repository which can be found elsewhere, would see slideshow of cool mods to check out right away after installing Zandro. Also if the person is downright confused with Option menus in Zandro, do you really think they would search the forums for a beginners guide? This guide should be right next to the Download button. How to install section is not sufficient. That's also one of the reasons why many people love vanilla-esque ports. They don't overwhelm them with settings and features right away (and honestly, menu in Zan3 is 200% more confusing to me than anything I've seen before).

TL;DR Zandro index page is the best and only place to propagate everything good and exciting, use it (not only mods but countdown to nearest events as well). Host a few beginner servers. Use bots.

P.S.: It has been said many times but wiki needs updating. When I browse zdoom wiki and find a solution to my problem only to find it is not supported by Zandro, that is bad. People should have a reliable reference to not waste their time trying unsupported stuff.
P.P.S.: Dunno if the following idea is compatible with Zandro online logic but if there was a system that would automatically force bots to spectate when players join and force them to join when players leave, it would really help to generally accept bots being on servers.

[Mobius]

There is simply gap too big between noobs and pros. And IMHO this gap would much smaller if the pros would swallow some portion of their pride. For example - the infamous Respawn Protection. Pros hate it because it gives the lesser players opportunity to storm somewhere and kill them disregarding any collateral damage.

2 points to make

1. Spawn Protection in Doom duels is a horrendous idea. Why? Because if you have played any level of duel you'll know most fast pace doom fighting is in smaller maps. Small maps aggregate spawns in centralized locations which means even if I kill a player and run then there will be a good chance I'd encounter them. I can't defend myself. Now imagine if I kill them with the ssg in say ssl2. I am faced with two dilemmas: I am in the middle of the ssg's reload animation which means without spawn protection they can still snipe me, but that situation magnifies 100 when spawn protection enables them to recklessly charge an already disadvantage person.

2. Why should the veterans capitulate to the "noobs"? There was a standard set by players greater than me awhile ago for what's considered feasible and though they may like variance I bet money they'll fall back to what's familiar. For you to be a good player you must be good against a player on their own home field. You don't go to a competitive community, change the rules, and then challenge the better players to play at your level. The funnier part is that those players will probably meet you at your own terms and win, because they know what it takes to be a better player: go to someone else terms and surpass them at it. They do so coming here and adapting to the standard set by the community and not the other way around.

Get good.

[quote="Doomista]Pros also hates bots, for whatever reason (btw chatting can be muted for bots). But if there were like one or two servers just for beginners and those servers were promoted enough (FrontPage notification), it could attract beginners to try DM. Also we need bots on servers out of sheer principle. I own a server that has always 2 bots present on it. Anytime I can play DM and most of the time it takes only 15-20 minutes for couple other guys to connect. I definitely would not idle on an empty DM server for 20 minutes only to play duel with one random guy.[/quote]

That sounds incredibly lonely and who are you talking for? and why should anyone go out of their way for a frontpage notification? This is the DOOM COMMUNITY that means if you want something made: you'll have to make it yourself. Also I don't think veterans give a shit about bots other than playing them with other players. No one wants to play bots when there's actual players in the server. That's just dumb.

Frontpage stuff

This we can meet in the middle for. This is something I believe the frontpage can move for which is highlighting really cool graphical wads and fun things for people to play. Most players will worry about features and functions later when they learn to give more of a shit to care to learn about it. So this we can both agree on.

[doomista]

TL;DR: If you only care for veterans, you don't have read it.

There is simply gap too big between noobs and pros. And IMHO this gap would much smaller if the pros would swallow some portion of their pride. For example - the infamous Respawn Protection. Pros hate it because it gives the lesser players opportunity to storm somewhere and kill them disregarding any collateral damage.

2 points to make

1. Spawn Protection in Doom duels is a horrendous idea. Why? Because if you have played any level of duel you'll know most fast pace doom fighting is in smaller maps. Small maps aggregate spawns in centralized locations which means even if I kill a player and run then there will be a good chance I'd encounter them. I can't defend myself. Now imagine if I kill them with the ssg in say ssl2. I am faced with two dilemmas: I am in the middle of the ssg's reload animation which means without spawn protection they can still snipe me, but that situation magnifies 100 when spawn protection enables them to recklessly charge an already disadvantage person.

2. Why should the veterans capitulate to the "noobs"? There was a standard set by players greater than me awhile ago for what's considered feasible and though they may like variance I bet money they'll fall back to what's familiar. For you to be a good player you must be good against a player on their own home field. You don't go to a competitive community, change the rules, and then challenge the better players to play at your level. The funnier part is that those players will probably meet you at your own terms and win, because they know what it takes to be a better player: go to someone else terms and surpass them at it. They do so coming here and adapting to the standard set by the community and not the other way around.

I probably formulated my point badly, I'll try to say it differently. I am not suggesting changing competitive rules and I definitely was not talking about dueling. I was talking about FFA deathmatches. Every player needs some starting off point. If you just started playing doom and have zero to none skill whatsoever, any form of deathmatch will quickly repel you unless you like getting your ass kicked (in which case finding a BDSM mistress is probably better idea ). That is because people even on noncompetitive servers are usually really good. I am just suggesting one or two public FFA servers that will have the spawn protection on and even in case when somebody much better will join, he would definitely still win, but the other players will get a chance for a few frags and being alive for more than 0.45 seconds each time they spawn. And from my experience with my friends - being alive for more than a 0.45s is a huge deal if those guys are meant to stick with doom, namely zandronum.

I simply suggest to welcome new players with open hands because what can be better in terms of Public image than having a playerbase? And the main problem with my suggestion isn't the existence of the server, hell I can set it up, but it has to be propagated. It has to be seen. And while this is not a solution for competitive scene right now, it could help in the long run by training guys from zero to hero.

Get good.

Also I am not complaining about my skill. I know my place and I am okay with it.

EDIT: I missed the following due to formatting

Pros also hates bots, for whatever reason (btw chatting can be muted for bots). But if there were like one or two servers just for beginners and those servers were promoted enough (FrontPage notification), it could attract beginners to try DM. Also we need bots on servers out of sheer principle. I own a server that has always 2 bots present on it. Anytime I can play DM and most of the time it takes only 15-20 minutes for couple other guys to connect. I definitely would not idle on an empty DM server for 20 minutes only to play duel with one random guy.

That sounds incredibly lonely and who are you talking for? and why should anyone go out of their way for a frontpage notification? This is the DOOM COMMUNITY that means if you want something made: you'll have to make it yourself. Also I don't think veterans give a shit about bots other than playing them with other players. No one wants to play bots when there's actual players in the server. That's just dumb.

IMHO this kind of comments led to this whole thread in the first place. If you think this is a place where everyone stands only for himself and the only ones who we should care about are veterans - then why are we having this discussion? What public image are you trying to change? Veterans know their shit. They know what port they like and Zan3 is probably not going to change that much. If those veterans care for Zandro, they probably use the alpha already.

With this approach, community will die eventually. In my country only one doom forum still exists and there are basically two or three people who post on a monthly basis. Veterans won't change a thing. New blood will. I knew a guy, about 13 y-old, he did not know english so I had to spend several hours teaching him how to setup Zandro and Doom Builder to toy around. I unfortunately had not the time to attend to him by myself afterwards but even though he send me two maps to play, both huge as hell. If there were any regional community strong enough like in times where I started, this guy could be a great mapper in a couple of years.
ST and Zandro respectively dub themselves "newschool" they want to be fresh, move limits, they should appeal to new people. Do you really want to appeal to them with DIY attitude? That should came eventually, not immediately. And only for creative people.

Also, I am a programmer. I can go the DIY way and make myself nice and shiny website, promote zandronum here, promote mods, promote newbies servers and organise events. Will that do anything? Well, no. It'll be useless crap. That's because I will basically be the only one using that webpage and there will be like 6 people who will once visit it from the link in the forum post I'll write for this forums. This is not a way to go. Also, thing about loneliness. If there's a FNF and literally nobody else is on the server even after 30 minutes after start on an event (true story, multiple times), would you praise for a couple of bots you can smash while waiting? Something is almost always better than nothing.

[Mobius]

I probably formulated my point badly, I'll try to say it differently. I am not suggesting changing competitive rules and I definitely was not talking about dueling. I was talking about FFA deathmatches.

That's even worst considering the chaotic and quick pace of a typical FFA. What would even be the point of an FFA DM with spawn protection that LMS can't provide equally? Why I make that comparison is because imagine a bunch of people dying and now with respawn protection they can't die again. You have now punished everyone by making them wait, and tormenting the killer(s) by making them vulnerable to mobs of invincible enemies. Think on that for a second.

Every player needs some starting off point. If you just started playing doom and have zero to none skill whatsoever, any form of deathmatch will quickly repel you unless you like getting your ass kicked (in which case finding a BDSM mistress is probably better idea ).

Speak for yourself: everyone here started from somewhere and met a curve. Why do you think some of the "veterans" are called veterans in the first place? They didn't just stumble upon Doom FFA DM, CTF, Duel overnight. They stood and never quit.

That is because people even on noncompetitive servers are usually really good.

if they are really good they wouldn't need spawn protection and handicaps for "pros to swallow some portion of their pride" in the first place which contradicts your whole premise.

I am just suggesting one or two public FFA servers that will have the spawn protection on and even in case when somebody much better will join, he would definitely still win, but the other players will get a chance for a few frags and being alive for more than 0.45 seconds each time they spawn. And from my experience with my friends - being alive for more than a 0.45s is a huge deal if those guys are meant to stick with doom, namely zandronum.

Talk to a server host about these settings or host your own and there's services to alleviate that. Players joining and staying in your server dictates success and demand in a free market scenario (the real way things are determined in Zandronum).

I simply suggest to welcome new players with open hands because what can be better in terms of Public image than having a playerbase?

This topic involved more of what occurred in a huge community discussion involving certain people who said our public image was bad. This thread was to hopefully illuminate the grievances others have and to no surprise no such thing actually existed. Zandronum/Skulltag reputation is mainly a meme by other source ports to explain away the differences on how the communities handle domestic politics and cross-port relations. Ultimately all of Doom is loaded with self righteous hogwash from the narcissist at the Megaman community to the deluded Zdaemon crowd. Example of this would be when I was on irc in #IDL and Xenaero made fun of Skulltag for having furries, but then we discover he identifies as a lizard-shark and plays tailtouch with others in his state. It's just hypocrisy from dead-beat spectators too afraid to actually confront a point because they don't have one. This thread, if you read it, proves that zandronum's playerbase shrinks at certain seasons and then blossoms for mods meaning NO ONE GIVES A SHIT about any of that and want to play their games: This is how the community SHOULD BE. I was just being polite about it in the hopes of maybe getting SOME elucidation from someone outside of the A3/MXU circle-jerk, but unfortunately the circle-jerk's courage is beyond shadowy spectators.

And the main problem with my suggestion isn't the existence of the server, hell I can set it up, but it has to be propagated. It has to be seen. And while this is not a solution for competitive scene right now, it could help in the long run by training guys from zero to hero.

Supply and demand. This is a topic DONE TO DEATH in Skulltag/Zandronum shit even before I came around in GVH. People play what they want and if they think a server isn't worth their time they won't touch it. No initiative will change it because it has to be something fun. Go pitch it to people (irc, skype, discord, facebook, instagram, twitter, your phone, at work) and generate it yourself and maybe it'd be fun enough to warrant it. A working example: some asshole every year since forever said no one does pub ctf and I went on irc and organized a public ctf game that same day with almost 20+ players in the server and posted screenshots in the same thread. Again if you want something done: do it yourself.

IMHO this kind of comments led to this whole thread in the first place. If you think this is a place where everyone stands only for himself and the only ones who we should care about are veterans - then why are we having this discussion? What public image are you trying to change? Veterans know their shit. They know what port they like and Zan3 is probably not going to change that much. If those veterans care for Zandro, they probably use the alpha already.

You don't play very often do you? No one cares or even like bots when there are people already occupying the server. This has less to do with veterans than everyone and their grandmother wanting to play with humans, and if you want to play with bots there's single player. Anyone worth their salt in zandronum acknowledges that 3.0 is the only thing standing between us and ending up like Odamex. This community is driven by mods in which is already mastered at by (G)Zdoom. Everyone awaits for 3.0 just to port more complicated mods over and that's it. The idea is to play with humans how hard of a concept is that? New players have been coming more for complex doom than actual doom itself and I don't find that alarming nor bothersome. What bothers me is when tired arguments from yesteryear still creep till this day.

With this approach, community will die eventually.

Since I know you were never around for this: we've had that very, VERY SAME meme converyed every year. "Doom is dying" or "Doom is dead" and it never ends, but here we are 20+ years later. All communities die. The quicker everyone acknowledges that the better, but you know what never dies? Seeing that proverbial fear stemming from what? Do you know what dies in Doom? Mods do. Every new mod that's mega popular eventually stabilizes or dies, but somehow these servers manage to GROW every year as a result. What an odd coincidence. Doom is dying? Doom is dead.[/quote]

In my country only one doom forum still exists and there are basically two or three people who post on a monthly basis.

We're not your country. Forums are dead. Everyone is on discord. No one cares and just want to play

Veterans won't change a thing. New blood will. I knew a guy, about 13 y-old, he did not know english so I had to spend several hours teaching him how to setup Zandro and Doom Builder to toy around. I unfortunately had not the time to attend to him by myself afterwards but even though he send me two maps to play, both huge as hell. If there were any regional community strong enough like in times where I started, this guy could be a great mapper in a couple of years.
ST and Zandro respectively dub themselves "newschool" they want to be fresh, move limits, they should appeal to new people. Do you really want to appeal to them with DIY attitude? That should came eventually, not immediately. And only for creative people.

Did you get triggered when I said the vets shouldn't capitulate? I recall only really putting an emphasis on the dichotomy between players in one paragraph about spawn protection. You need to relax and reread my post with less fervor next time, but I think what would collaborate your misconceptions is time and play: something a veteran is familiar with. There are loads of people with talent who don't come here and so what? We have loads of people with and without talent coming here all the time, but what attracts them are the cool mods.

This is why I said we can meet in the middle.

Having nifty and cool mods on display for frontpage headers!? Awesome. Everything else you said: no. Zandronum is not a huge AAA modding scene like Duke shit not even Doom can compete with Eduke, but so what? We attract new and old players alike, and making some FFA servers won't change the trends because no one gives a shit about DM. They care about MODS and come here to play their favorite mod! Ask jenova this question: what was one of the most downloaded wads on BE? He'll probably say Hmod because it's a hentai mod and not Doom. New people are attracted to new things and activity not special needs programs they don't care about. People gravitate here on their own. What we can agree on is simplifying how the installer works instead of assuming your average "point and click to have fun" user give enough of a shit to download a very, very, very old game. Half of that problem is iwad integration but that's a licensing problem.

Also, I am a programmer. I can go the DIY way and make myself nice and shiny website, promote zandronum here, promote mods, promote newbies servers and organise events. Will that do anything? Well, no.

It's useless crap because you have your priorities fucked and I extrapolated that from this conversation. You are focused on shit no one cares about where you should be focused on what everyone wants. You are on the right track and trust me I know people here who promote things, get servers populated, and can even revive dead projects. You should focus on organizing games of things people want to play, build your repertoire, and be connected with people who can push the medium forward. DIY in this situation is more politics+initiative+foresight+Comprehensions than simple bot spamming. Target the right people with the right product and the right ideas. Streamline processes people would otherwise convolute. You had the right idea for the frontpage stuff for sure -- stay there.

It'll be useless crap. That's because I will basically be the only one using that webpage and there will be like 6 people who will once visit it from the link in the forum post I'll write for this forums. This is not a way to go. Also, thing about loneliness. If there's a FNF and literally nobody else is on the server even after 30 minutes after start on an event (true story, multiple times), would you praise for a couple of bots you can smash while waiting? Something is almost always better than nothing.

I never cared for FNF minus the few wads it decides to host, but believe me a dead fnf is one with both bots and zero players. It's the same thing at that point. A dead FNF is indicative of either poor wad choices or bad timing (if something better comes on a friday.. too bad). You can't really help that no matter what you do, and honestly I rather have zero players.

[doomista]

I guess you are right about my priorities being fucked up. It happens to me quite often to see things from a different and often unrelevant angle.

I didn't get triggered by the "vets" thing directly, but I never understood why so many people hate spawn protection. I played with that for years and while I agree it's better without it, I can have fun in either case. I am sorry if I offended anyone by what I said regarding vets and pros.

You did not get a few points of what I said, but since you proved them wrong in the bigger picture I am not gonna to elaborate them even further.