Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

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Ru5tK1ng
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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#61

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:03 pm

ZZYZX wrote:Punishment is not a personal revenge, no matter how much "not funny" it was for the involved people.
Whoever stated it was for a personal vendetta? That's like saying you wanted Killstrike banned for personal reasons rather than because he broke the rules and deserved to be banned. The 'funny' part refers to the fact how people are trying to trivialize the DDOS attacks as something that happened long ago and should be completely forgiven. With that logic, Capo's worst attacks happened long ago and he should be forgiven and have a lighter sentence.'
Punishment is meant to prevent repeating of the offense. Aren't four years without repeating enough to be sure?
Punishment is also meant to set a point what type of behavior is absolutely not tolerable. And no, you can never be sure about individuals partaking in shady actions.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#62

Post by ZZYZX » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:09 pm

I wanted Killstrike banned for personal reasons (he was dropping VGL's rep even further, which directly hurts me as it's leader) and it coincided so that the rules were supporting me.
That is if you are referring to him impersonating my clan 3 times. In all other cases I generally wouldn't care.
Last edited by ZZYZX on Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#63

Post by Watermelon » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:11 pm

ZZYZX wrote:Water you completely misinterpreted my post. I didn't say that Jen made BE to be used as an insurance policy against future punishment (that's too paranoid even for me), I only said that he is noticeably using the current circumstances to defend himself.

I also don't believe that Jen should be banned for it, simply because too much time has passed. There's absolutely no point in punishing people for something they did multiple years ago on the internet. Perhaps, a warning and a perm for next offense of this kind instead of 1 year. At most. This is also in response to Alex's post.
Ru5tK1ng wrote:Had it been an instance of simply cheating or impersonation, sure I would agree with you. However, considering the severity and legality regarding DDos'ing, this is on an entirely different level and beyond trivial punishment. Had you been in Legion's place or on the receiving end of such attacks, you'd be singing a different tune.
Also, did anyone raise a shit wave in the community about it at the time? Or it just went unnoticed? Why didn't Legion go to Metal?
Sorry if I misread it, I saw "I've done this much for the community — ban me and it will be gone" which I thought was directly saying "I own BE and if you toast me BE is gone".

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#64

Post by ZZYZX » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:13 pm

Watermelon wrote:Sorry if I misread it, I saw "I've done this much for the community — ban me and it will be gone" which I thought was directly saying "I own BE and if you toast me BE is gone".
Pretty much, but I didn't say that BE was created with this in mind, because it wasn't IMO. Jenova probably just liked the idea and the process of creating it, perhaps also for coding practice.
But now once it exists it can be used like that as it has become a major part of the port and the community despite alternatives existing.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#65

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:15 pm

ZZYZX wrote:I wanted Killstrike banned for personal reasons (he was dropping VGL's rep even further, which directly hurts me as it's leader) and it coincided so that the rules were supporting me.
That is if you are referring to him impersonating my clan 3 times. In all other cases I generally wouldn't care.
That is interesting to know. However, while you pursuing Killstrike's punishment was fueled by personal reasons, it's not very wise to assume everyone acts the same way as you. As you see how I was incorrect, you are also incorrect about your assumptions.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#66

Post by ZZYZX » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:20 pm

Ru5tK1ng wrote:That is interesting to know. However, while you pursuing Killstrike's punishment was fueled by personal reasons, it's not very wise to assume everyone acts the same way as you. As you see how I was incorrect, you are also incorrect about your assumptions.
I understand that my priorities aren't necessarily the same as the other people have, and I wouldn't assume this if you didn't repeat the same argument twice, which was "the people who suffered wouldn't agree that the punishment is pointless [based on the time expired]".
Of course there's a high chance that they wouldn't, they are personally involved. Staff member isn't supposed to judge like that IMO.

But, to be honest, even if I personally had a situation like this, my reaction would be something close to Blitz: "god you guys are still bringing this up? wtf, forget it already".
Like it was said above, we can't reliably know what Legion would think about it, but here's another possible option.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#67

Post by Mobius » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:38 pm

ZZYZX wrote: I understand that my priorities aren't necessarily the same as the other people have, and I wouldn't assume this if you didn't repeat the same argument twice, which was "the people who suffered wouldn't agree that the punishment is pointless [based on the time expired]".
Of course there's a high chance that they wouldn't, they are personally involved. Staff member isn't supposed to judge like that IMO.

But, to be honest, even if I personally had a situation like this, my reaction would be something close to Blitz: "god you guys are still bringing this up? wtf, forget it already".
Like it was said above, we can't reliably know what Legion would think about it, but here's another possible option.
Well it defeats the premise considering he uploaded it as an outright accusation. I don't know if he cares now but then he did enough to shed light to mock Jenova and disparage him. Just because the accused says "it was a long time ago guys come on" doesn't mean they are absolved from their crimes.
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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#68

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:19 pm

Ru5tK1ng wrote: @tta
Are you insinuating the staff knew about the attacks back then?
I would figure, since as Mobius said, Legion was staff then (and maybe Raz was too? I don't remember)

Given how long ago this was though, I don't really remember anything else from it.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#69

Post by Mobius » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:51 pm

I think Strangle (Raz) was staff at the time as well.
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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#70

Post by Frits » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:10 am

You ban someone to punish them and hopefully they learn from the experience and don't do it again. However Jenova doesn't need to learn to "stop" anymore as he did so by himself/age
Almost everyone did a stupid thing on the internet at least once especially when you're young. And unlike most he has proven to be a valuable community member since then. Helping out the port with servers, cheaters and exploits.
4 years ago I would have banned him for sure but right now I don't see the point. Only the "Well that's the rules and oh shit let's not rationally look at this and just ban him because it's the rules"

Else Community referendum? :P
#freejenova

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#71

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:38 pm

I can't tell if you're being serious for if this is satire. You can't free anyone who isn't banned. In fact, if you refer to the other hot topic you would see most people agree Jenova shouldn't get banned for any type of long term deal. I, however, propose he gets put on a watch list in which his next bannable offense lands him a permaban or a long term ban instantly. After all, if he keeps up his good behavior he won't have to worry about landing any type of punishment. Is this not fair?

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#72

Post by Gul Dukat » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:15 pm

Quite honestly, Jenova should just get a probation and if he does it again, he should be permanently banned. Because retroactively ban people for crimes that are almost half a decade old, is a bit tad ludicrous. We'll probably have seen more people from the past getting judgment for every little thing they weren't caught in the past.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#73

Post by Carpathia » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:13 pm

*drops ssg*

Oh don't worry I won't be banned until four months later...

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#74

Post by Nati46 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:17 pm

iirc the Jenova ddos incident was posted on altdeath back when it existed, it became pretty known to alot of players,I think legion himself was staff too back then, regardless It's nearly certain that at least several staff had been informed of it in some way or another.
In that case if staff did not act towards Jenova after acknowledging the fact (assuming they did), there is no reason that after 4 years it should be brought up again. Also I'm not sure when the decision to clear skulltag offences at the launch of zandronum took into effect (The new zan forums existed but Zandro 1.0 itself was only released after the incident) so it could also be a consideration.
Anyhow this case seems pretty pointless and I don't see what will be gained if Jen is to be punished in any way.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#75

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:21 pm

Gul Dukat wrote:Quite honestly, Jenova should just get a probation and if he does it again, he should be permanently banned. Because retroactively ban people for crimes that are almost half a decade old, is a bit tad ludicrous. We'll probably have seen more people from the past getting judgment for every little thing they weren't caught in the past.
It would be ludicrous if it was an offense such as cheating or namefaking. Do you perhaps think DDOS attacks are trivial?

Code: Select all

In the United States, the people that take part in DDoS attacks run the risk of being charged with legal offenses at the federal level, both criminally and civilly. The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) is the applicable law (18 U.S.C. §1030).
*drops ssg*

Oh don't worry I won't be banned until four months later...
You absolutely have a point. If you can get punished for committing an act far less severe than DDOS'ing, I don't see why Jenova should get a pardon.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#76

Post by Nati46 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:44 pm

Ru5tK1ng wrote:
Gul Dukat wrote:Quite honestly, Jenova should just get a probation and if he does it again, he should be permanently banned. Because retroactively ban people for crimes that are almost half a decade old, is a bit tad ludicrous. We'll probably have seen more people from the past getting judgment for every little thing they weren't caught in the past.
It would be ludicrous if it was an offense such as cheating or namefaking. Do you perhaps think DDOS attacks are trivial?

Code: Select all

In the United States, the people that take part in DDoS attacks run the risk of being charged with legal offenses at the federal level, both criminally and civilly. The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) is the applicable law (18 U.S.C. §1030).
*drops ssg*

Oh don't worry I won't be banned until four months later...
You absolutely have a point. If you can get punished for committing an act far less severe than DDOS'ing, I don't see why Jenova should get a pardon.

Lol that is pushing it a bit far imo. Ofcourse DDosing is technically a crime but had this specific case been brought to court I doubt it would actually have any action taken on at all as there was no serious damage (would probably apply to capo's case as well, dunno how seriously it affected Water so could be wrong.)
This is negligible compared to actual cases of sites/companies etc getting DDosed with actual serious consequences involved which is what courts usually deal with. As so it is more of a concern to its effect on the community than having actual legal consequences.
Had this happened now I would agree with a punishment, but I don't see any reason for this to be brought up years later (especially after no action was taken originally.)

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#77

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:00 pm

That's fair, you can stick to your stance and I'll stick to mine.

As for no action, nothing was going to happen to Jenova while metal was admin.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#78

Post by Nati46 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:31 pm

Ru5tK1ng wrote:That's fair, you can stick to your stance and I'll stick to mine.

As for no action, nothing was going to happen to Jenova while metal was admin.
Just pointed out the hype over you quoting the CFAA over something as trivial as this heh.
This happened so long ago and was virtually forgotten until this thread came up. I don't get your "stance" at all.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#79

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:40 pm

Nati46 wrote:
Ru5tK1ng wrote:That's fair, you can stick to your stance and I'll stick to mine.

As for no action, nothing was going to happen to Jenova while metal was admin.
Just pointed out the hype over you quoting the CFAA over something as trivial as this heh.
This happened so long ago and was virtually forgotten until this thread came up. I don't get your "stance" at all.
My mistake, I stated this in the other thread and then the 2nd part above:
So I'm waiting for your warning for DDOS'ing multiple people. If Mobius gets threatened with a permaban for his personal attacks, then you should be held to a similar pillar for your illegal actions. I don't want a perma ban, year ban, month ban even a week for your actions. Being warned and put on a the same leash is good enough, no?
In fact, if you refer to the other hot topic you would see most people agree Jenova shouldn't get banned for any type of long term deal. I, however, propose he gets put on a watch list in which his next bannable offense lands him a permaban or a long term ban instantly. After all, if he keeps up his good behavior he won't have to worry about landing any type of punishment. Is this not fair?
I believe the staff has already read this topic and have considered all points from both sides. All that's left for this is to see if anything will happen or not.

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Re: Capo DDOS attacks on Zandronum tournaments

#80

Post by Nati46 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:59 pm

Ru5tK1ng wrote:
Nati46 wrote:
Ru5tK1ng wrote:That's fair, you can stick to your stance and I'll stick to mine.

As for no action, nothing was going to happen to Jenova while metal was admin.
Just pointed out the hype over you quoting the CFAA over something as trivial as this heh.
This happened so long ago and was virtually forgotten until this thread came up. I don't get your "stance" at all.
My mistake, I stated this in the other thread and then the 2nd part above:
So I'm waiting for your warning for DDOS'ing multiple people. If Mobius gets threatened with a permaban for his personal attacks, then you should be held to a similar pillar for your illegal actions. I don't want a perma ban, year ban, month ban even a week for your actions. Being warned and put on a the same leash is good enough, no?
In fact, if you refer to the other hot topic you would see most people agree Jenova shouldn't get banned for any type of long term deal. I, however, propose he gets put on a watch list in which his next bannable offense lands him a permaban or a long term ban instantly. After all, if he keeps up his good behavior he won't have to worry about landing any type of punishment. Is this not fair?
I believe the staff has already read this topic and have considered all points from both sides. All that's left for this is to see if anything will happen or not.
I did not follow the other thread - what I see is you trying to put jenova's actions versus mobius' past present actions on "the same leash" (and be fair he had done some really fucked up stuff throughout the years) , Unless there were more recent DDosing by jen I am not aware of, this is basically reiterating the same thing by digging up old news.
If not then explain what you meant.

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