Is the Old holding back progress?

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Ru5tK1ng
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Is the Old holding back progress?

#1

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:02 am

I was thinking about this a few days ago: the status of the duel scene. For a very long time duel has been dominated by Old School or OS. I had a few years where I lived in the duel game mode back on ZDaemon and it was all I ever did besides the occasional FFA and CTF. Needless to say, we all played OS style and the only thing that didn't conform to the standard was neverswitch on pickup (another battle that was fought for years).

In the past years I have been in the Doom community, I've noticed there have been a few instances where someone tries to do something different from the usual OS. It is either just a passing thing such as a tournament or just something that gains a very small cult following. Anything NS (this term really doesn't have any meaning anymore honestly) that catches momentum loses fairly quickly to the Old. Why exactly is this?

One reason that was given to me is because of the OS domination brought about by the available server hosts. Sure, they can run whatever they want, it is their server and there is no debate about this. Additionally there isn't really anything stopping someone from compiling an 'NS Duel 32' either. But would that really do much? It may or it may not.

The settings are somehow a big turn off for people. One setting that I never understood why people bashed was Free Look. Sure, jumping is something that isn't even in the original game or even the same across all MP ports, so I understand the dislike of jumping in duel. But FL is something that is optional and in most of the maps it won't cause too much of gameplay breakage. If anything, it highlights just how bad and outdated relying on autoaim is.

Item respawn is hated by players because they don't like having anything help their opponent such as a medkit. I would argue it's just players being lazy and not wanting to think while dueling. Items are nearly meaningless after the first few minutes after they are all picked up. However, item respawn adds to gameplay depth: you already control spawns and weapons, would items do much more harm? Recall some of the comments at the QCON Doom 2 tournament for those that watched the stream. One spectator typed that duel was just watching SSGs reload for 10 minutes. Yeah, that's pretty accurate in most cases.

There used to be a NS type of standard back then years ago on ZD. But that was ten years ago and it's pretty much old as dirt at this point. There really isn't a standard of New School anymore. I designed a style of gameplay I dubbed NOS(Not Old-School/New Old School) as a definite middle ground between the 2 clubs. It was enjoyable for people that actually took the time to try it out. Even DevastatioN enjoyed it and he is one of the biggest OS proponents out there. But regardless of what it's called or how it's designed, if it isn't OS it won't catch on.

So, is the OS standard holding back any evolution or change? It's very likely considering most duelers are exposed to OS first and that's what they will think of when they think of duel. I can vouch for this personally because back in they day, if something wasn't OS, it was heresy. That's just how it was and how it is to this day. But what kind of change is being fended off? Surely I don't mean CarnEvil type of change where you pretty much butch the core game and make it into a poor man's ripoff of Quake.

More specifically I am referring to things that can work with the core gameplay (aka you can keep your randomness). Anyone who has ever made a good number of duel maps can understand what I mean when I say sticking to OS mapping limits potential. There is a limit to how far you can go with OS in map designs. How many maps in duel32 can you name that follow a typical formula? A battle circle surrounded by a hallway? An inside with an outside? Hallway DM? Judas the most basic square? Yes, the maps in duel32 follow their formula and do it well. But there really isn't anything that screams 'wow' design wise. Why aren't there any maps that feature at least bridge things? What about 3d floors? Is there really anything inherently wrong with using some of these non-os features in duel maps? Yeah, infinite heights will break things but at this point in time is such a flag needed in duel? I hardly doubt the world will split because someone used a no-stop tele in a map. Sure, it won't be compatible with every port but at this point we might as go all the way. After all, the Zan duel scene DOES use a pk3.

Another thing that causes fist fights is the weapons themselves. Sure there have been many who have attempted a norandom approach or a quake approach or a re-balance approach (such as myself). But nothing sticks and I would agree that a change like this wouldn't go over well in duel. Yeah, it would do away with pointing and clicking only 1 weapon, but players aren't ready for that (everyone wants to run around with a 1-hitter quitter). I think that in order to make those types of big leaps of progress, small steps have to be accepted first. This can only be accomplished by getting rid of the old and decrepit so the new can have room.


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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#2

Post by mifu » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:25 am

I dont really duel myself, so if you dont want my 2 cents, feel free to refund it. However I gota agree with Decay here that if there was a dedicated NS mapset, things would get played with those rules.

This community likes new things after all so a NS pack would not hurt :P
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#3

Post by Watermelon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:52 am

Playing some tournies on NS maps would be really interesting.

I know there's a lot of old school players who still play rarely, and they absolutely refuse to play anything that is not:
- D2M1
- D5M1
- Judas
- D5M7
- SSL2

I think it's due to comfort level and the old schoolers who put countless hours into learning one map don't want to adapt to a new one. Anyone who has a brain will be able to adapt, but sadly there are still people in this community who play well in OS settings and bust when anything new is added in.

As a sad example, I remember a priv where Edd would play like 31 and 05, and he'd do good. Then when some new map was picked that he didn't know well he would just start throwing the game. Alex did nothing and one of the other admins just said "he sucks at anything that he hasn't played 10000x" which leads me to believe that some of the pillars of the community don't support punishing people who are going to stand in the way of transitioning to new school play. When R came back and played in one random priv for their yearly appearance, when he was on the losing team with R, he just stood on top of a tree and started throwing it again. Hatred freaked out at him, but it didn't change anything. This indicated that even though he'd played this map 10000x or more, having to try = throw it.

What possible chance do we have of getting newer players to play NS when they see old players who refuse to change their ways? Let alone get punished for the very actions that undermine moving in a new direction?

Starting a tournament would be nice. It'd be great to show some players some of the NS packs like the one Chaindude made -- I forget the name but it was Q3 like with rockets that go through teleporters. I got my ass kicked there but I really enjoyed playing it.

Luckily a lot of the one-dimensional unadaptable old school duel players are phased out or almost phased out. My only worry is that due to the competitive scene's inactivity (unless its been booming, I haven't bothered to take part in zan CTF or duels in a long time now and don't have any interest anymore), it might not be too recoverable.




One possible idea is to keep it Doom2-like in the sense where you can get kills without having to be some kind of god at NS. Quake 3 had a major turn off for me when I couldn't even kill a single average player because they had the items timed and the map locked down. I'd have to play a few months probably of just getting crushed to even compete with average. This would probably set off new people from joining even more so than usual because a vast majority of the playerbase likes mods that have one hitters (like Doom's SSG, mods like GVH that boomed focused on really OP attacks all around).



Interestingly, I played some duels with Samsara w/ Roman6a and we had a hell of a lot of fun. I don't know why it didn't catch on. I'd be first in line if something like this was run.
Last edited by Watermelon on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#4

Post by RoSKing » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:59 am

I was thinking about something like this myself for a bit honestly. I think that there's a lot of ideas that can be introduced into a new style of play, and I for one endorse having freelook (because we're all sick of being reliant on autoaim, at least I am) and perhaps item re-spawning for control. These kinds of concepts introduce a whole new dimension to duel and new ways to be better than your opponent; Rather than just being able to out aim them.

My main focus was regarding how Quake duel is played out and I feel that Clan Arena brings an interesting concept of rocket jumping while taking no health to reach specific areas.(Hence why I added it in hideandseek). I initially thought about a weapon mod to change the weapons for a Clan Arena style of play, and then thought of maybe trying to release a few maps with these ideas in mind and see where it went.

Another idea I was toying with was having the zandronum jumping but slowing player movement to kind of balance it out, I do personally like bunny hopping from Quake; I feel it gives a fluent and enjoyable motion when navigating around maps and offers new tricks to be explored. Mostly I enjoy this concept for the simple fact that there are pros and cons to jumping, while it maybe the fastest way to travel from point a to point b; It commits you to a direction which could result in your death.

I think if executed properly, maybe not all but most of these concepts could be introduced into a new style and of duel that would be more widely accepted; And perhaps be the stepping stones to a new dueling standard. It's probably a bit far fetched to consider it a new standard; But again, I definitely think a lot of these ideas have a lot of potential and provide a lot of room for growth in competitive duel.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#5

Post by Doomkid » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:23 am

I love NOS, to the point where I can say it adds more depth than pure OS. Item respawn is great, so is freelook. Timing your item grabbing and actually being able to properly aim add further dimensions to the fun that is dueling.. I really don't know why so many people dislike it. I love a good OS DM from time to time, but doing that and only that gets stale as shit. Duel32 is basically seen as 'official' by most deathmatchers across all ports, but anyone who isn't willing to try something new is just... Bleh. Variety is the spice of life.
One spectator typed that duel was just watching SSGs reload for 10 minutes. Yeah, that's pretty accurate in most cases.
It gets very, very reptitive. It's nice to see the formula changed up, and it's shameful that you often have to release weapon mods as a separate WAD file just because everyone has a cry if it isn't the vanilla guns..
As a sad example, I remember a priv where Edd would play like 31 and 05, and he'd do good. Then when some new map was picked that he didn't know well he would just start throwing the game.
He sounds like the worst kind of person. In an alternate universe where people actually attended public Doom tournaments, if I saw a player doing that, I'd boo the shit out of him, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.
One possible idea is to keep it Doom2-like in the sense where you can get kills without having to be some kind of god at NS.
This is a great guideline, even despite that it would be a tough balance to strike perfectly.
I for one endorse having freelook (because we're all sick of being reliant on autoaim, at least I am) and perhaps item re-spawning for control. These kinds of concepts introduce a whole new dimension to duel and new ways to be better than your opponent; Rather than just being able to out aim them.
This, so much this.

Overall, I'm very much down for a NOS or even NS duel32. Even though I'd get my ass raped, I'd still be happy to try something fresh. I think a key thing to keep in mind as that it shouldn't go too overboard with new features - I think we should treat it as 'weaning' in a sense - Add freelook and item respawn, maybe a bridge here or there, but keep it at a happy medium between old and new.

This will be tough to achieve but if done right could breathe some much needed fresh blood into the competitive scene.
Last edited by Doomkid on Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#6

Post by mr fiat » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:56 am

I would be interested in duel if it had more Variety zo i do support this idea, i have tried duel in the past but i gave up because it was the same ugly maps that looked Like someone vommited a bunch of sectors. Aswel as Players coming in that played those aforementioned maps a milion times tot het a cheap win and promptly giving me shit for Being bad.
If anything i have learned is that competetive is a very hostille environment.

*edit* auto correct is satan :s
Last edited by mr fiat on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#7

Post by Ænima » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:14 pm

Fuck OS players, if they wanna be Amish and do the same shit the same way for the next 500 years then let's let them, it's their right to choose.


BUT I think mappers should stop catering to them (I mean they never play anything other than D32 so you're wasting your time anyways) and target a new demographic: the relative "newbies" and people who are used to playing PvP modded. Which is a much larger group anyways. Let's make a map pack with 3D floors, new weapons, a "game show" announcer (I'll do the voice acting unless someone else wants to), pretty effects, scripts that make things more tense like destroying parts of the map when there's only 5 frags left, and an instant replay for the winning frag. Stuff like that.

If you know that most OS players won't even touch or care about a pack like this, then good. That means there's nothing holding us back, we don't need to make compromises to include them and we can go all out. What players would try it? Probably the ones who play modded PVP already like AOW and GVH, players who aren't necessarily skilled at direct player-vs-player action but are adaptable and familiar with the basic skills like outmaneuvering their enemy and leading their shots. We'd just have to be very careful with balancing things.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#8

Post by Zanieon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:32 pm

Tbh i always thought in a rule that would serve nice for all of the three multiplayer Source Ports which is:

Wanna play oldschool stuff? Odamex

Wanna play oldschool stuff without being so weird on bugs as Doom back on 1993? ZDaemon

Wanna go with me to Futureland? Zandronum

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For what Zandronum is now and for what the devs wants with it, there's no reason to us modders keep our creativity limited to only Boom format with nothing additional in a hope of make these players come out of their caves called Duel32, Brit10, Dwango5 and DynamiteDM.

I totally agree on give a try on newschool forms of Deathmatch/CTF.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#9

Post by Jwarrier » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:34 pm

Why continue to play doom if you want to phase out old school? You do realize what game you are playing right? I myself play a little NS every once in a while, but the passion lies with OS feel and OS settings. The moment these are gone is the moment I move onto another game. There are way better NS games out there. But lets take a moment to look beyond the opinions and just look at events that can show us simple facts. Yes, nearly 75% of all players currently on Zandronum at anytime are playing NS adaptions. Now how about the tournaments or competitive play? Anybody notice a sharp decline as of late? Odamex is currently a doomed port. There is nobody there to make changes, fix errors. However it still has the OS feel and (mostly) non-fucked up game play. [STFU Jwar not everybody went to odamex!] No, but they sure as hell finish tournaments without having to pull subs out of thin air, change rules, etc.

What I am saying is this, where would doom be without OS? I wouldn't want to know.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#10

Post by Zanieon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:51 pm

By what i noticed, those people who only play Doom to kill themselves in Deathmatches forgetting everything the game had of evolution in all this 20 years they prefer stay on ZDaemon, which are best place for them, since ZDaemon don't cares about going Newschool hype as Zandronum/ZDoom.

And for Zandronum, ironically the servers which you always see active all the time no matter if our planet explodes is Newschool (read as AoW2, WDI, Bagel Horde and GvH)
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#11

Post by turborektator » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:10 pm

Decay wrote: A difficulty I think has to do with maps. People don't like learning new duel maps/tactics, especially if they are more advanced like NOS is. It is difficult to balance properly, and people just wind up going back to duel32 because those maps are quick and easy. It is also difficult to break the monopoly of duel32 and even more difficult to get a map in that pack. There are new OS designs being released, (though granted many of them are bad) and none of them ever see the light of day. If there was a dedicated NOS/NS32 that was actively maintained or had a few maps rotating, that might freshen things up. Tournaments on these styles would be good too.
This made my day basically. Do you seriously think your Essay duel wad can take guy with IQ above 90 learn that maps longer than 10 minutes? ROFL. You just made "bad" OS maps which nobody plays bcz they are shit. And your supplement "dont forgot enable item respawns" really dont change nothing.
PPL play old maps bcz there is nothing better basically, maps which ppl call NS is not NS at all. Ill play it with no mouselook and beat everyone easy.
The real NS or something different were only cduel1, xc7 and maybe this Welkin's map. This were really good NS maps which made it hard for those OS idiots which you all hates.
Also for everyone who come here just say "i play judas once and i lost bcz he play it 10 years". This is just rofl if you are lazy, not interested improve etc just move play your mods. Duels are hardest mode in every game. Go play QL, Warsow, UT everything you will lost hard against guy which just know map. And its not different in OS doom duels. If you cry about losing in duels go play CTF and DM and learn movement and aim there, then you maybe do good result in duels.
Also i agree with water that samsara is really good, i tried it. I dominiaed a lot only as doomguy. But when there came some guy with tactic and picked Sarge i was just dead all time by his LG and quad LOL.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#12

Post by Ænima » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:30 pm

Jwarrier wrote: Why continue to play doom if you want to phase out old school? You do realize what game you are playing right? I myself play a little NS every once in a while, but the passion lies with OS feel and OS settings. The moment these are gone is the moment I move onto another game. There are way better NS games out there. But lets take a moment to look beyond the opinions and just look at events that can show us simple facts. Yes, nearly 75% of all players currently on Zandronum at anytime are playing NS adaptions. Now how about the tournaments or competitive play? Anybody notice a sharp decline as of late? Odamex is currently a doomed port. There is nobody there to make changes, fix errors. However it still has the OS feel and (mostly) non-fucked up game play. [STFU Jwar not everybody went to odamex!] No, but they sure as hell finish tournaments without having to pull subs out of thin air, change rules, etc.

What I am saying is this, where would doom be without OS? I wouldn't want to know.
Decay beat me to my response:
Decay wrote: I don't think anyone is saying "replace OS," rather, "why can't we play something else alongside it"?
How would cultivating a NS duel movement subtract from the OS playerbase, like, at all? If someone's still a die-hard OS player then they're probably still going to continue that.

Nobody's "phasing out" oldschool, we just wanna make more options for people who want to try new things.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#13

Post by turborektator » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:57 pm

Decay wrote:
turborektator wrote:
Decay wrote: A difficulty I think has to do with maps. People don't like learning new duel maps/tactics, especially if they are more advanced like NOS is. It is difficult to balance properly, and people just wind up going back to duel32 because those maps are quick and easy. It is also difficult to break the monopoly of duel32 and even more difficult to get a map in that pack. There are new OS designs being released, (though granted many of them are bad) and none of them ever see the light of day. If there was a dedicated NOS/NS32 that was actively maintained or had a few maps rotating, that might freshen things up. Tournaments on these styles would be good too.
This made my day basically. Do you seriously think your Essay duel wad can take guy with IQ above 90 learn that maps longer than 10 minutes? ROFL. You just made "bad" OS maps which nobody plays bcz they are shit. And your supplement "dont forgot enable item respawns" really dont change nothing.
PPL play old maps bcz there is nothing better basically, maps which ppl call NS is not NS at all. Ill play it with no mouselook and beat everyone easy.
The real NS or something different were only cduel1, xc7 and maybe this Welkin's map. This were really good NS maps which made it hard for those OS idiots which you all hates.
Also for everyone who come here just say "i play judas once and i lost bcz he play it 10 years". This is just rofl if you are lazy, not interested improve etc just move play your mods. Duels are hardest mode in every game. Go play QL, Warsow, UT everything you will lost hard against guy which just know map. And its not different in OS doom duels. If you cry about losing in duels go play CTF and DM and learn movement and aim there, then you maybe do good result in duels.
Also i agree with water that samsara is really good, i tried it. I dominiaed a lot only as doomguy. But when there came some guy with tactic and picked Sarge i was just dead all time by his LG and quad LOL.
This flurry of words and evident angst made me laugh. Where am I saying anything about essay duels? I suspect you are capo ban evading, in which case anything you say is worth less than the dirt under my boots. If it came to recommending NOS maps, my go-to would be EonDM anyway :cool:

In any case, NS or NOS maps are more difficult to balance whether or not you would like to admit it, and take more skill (or at least patience) to play better. Stay mad.
Welp i am not mad at all. And i joined here only bcz you claim OS players are idiots and cant play nos maps. And in fact there are only 2 NOS wads yours essay and rust's wad. I dont say they are bad, its alright but they are both easy to play especialy for OS players which played classic duel maps forever. Your claiming about how hard its play is just joke. But i know for plenty of ppl on this forums it can sounds really fashionable. LOL.
Also the whole idea about create maps with 3d floors, change weapon behaviour, movement etc. Is sure cool idea. And i am supporting it. I just dont know why some ppl just come to say. OS players sux. This is really zandronum 2015? Also do you think all OS players are too retarded learn jumping and play with mouselook or wat. LOL

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#14

Post by Ænima » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:48 pm

Would this be a good layout for a NS duel using 3D floors? Some things need moving or re-sizing because some areas feel a bit too tight, and yeah i know nothing is detailed yet. Also ignore the unused textures.
Spoiler: layout (Open)
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Spoiler: ingame screens (Open)
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If anyone wants to add on to this, go right ahead, I'm probably not doing anything with it.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#15

Post by Danzoa » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:05 pm

Decay wrote: But where did I imply anywhere that I am good ??? ?? I would never claim that, seeing as I barely play. You should learn how to read too, and stay on topic.
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#16

Post by ZZYZX » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:21 pm

The reason for which I personally couldn't into NOS is because it's not OS. Simple as that.
And by "OS" right here I don't mean the jumping or freelook or crouching or whatever compatflag one can enable or disable on the server, I mean the game flow.
NOS made by Ru5t featured item control-based maps like Quake, I don't know how to play such maps and don't want to play such maps, and if I wanted to, I'd go to either OpenArena or QW and not Doom.

And the little count of people that actually do want to join is most likely comprised of highskilled people that got bored of Doom, plus odd people like Medicris who play FNF, rarely public CTF and never play duels or private CTF, plus people that already play/played Quake.

To sum that up, you brought completely alien game flow to this port and then wonder that there's no epic queue of people waiting to join.

If you make a newschool map pack that wouldn't be a ripoff of Quake but instead continue Doom (basically: a 3D mind-numbing SSG blastfest) I believe there would be more people willing to play that, and then you could start to slowly modify stuff to be more quake-ish and expect the people to understand that.

Hope this helps.

p.s. one example of a map between OS and NOS (0.25 NS, hue) is legend-a, which eventually got removed from Duel32. Which is bad, since it was a nice map to play.
[edit]
p.p.s. in relation to original Doom, NOS is a mod. Be ready to your awesome competitive upgrade being met like a mod. Just remembered how Wirtualnosc (a EL> member, not a really good dueler) was surprisingly okay with NOS.
Last edited by ZZYZX on Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#17

Post by IdeIdoom » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:31 pm

Ænima wrote: Would this be a good layout for a NS duel using 3D floors? Some things need moving or re-sizing because some areas feel a bit too tight, and yeah i know nothing is detailed yet. Also ignore the unused textures.
Spoiler: layout (Open)
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Spoiler: ingame screens (Open)
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That map looks so easy to replicate without using 3D floors it's not even funny. It looks like an OS map, just with 3d floors.
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<+Dastan>	edd
<+Dastan>	boxxy skin when
<+Shift>	dastan you really want to fap at it this much and now you are going crazy and shredding your hair into a million tiny pieces for this boxxy skin to come out that way you can cum out
<+Dastan>	Shift, yes
--------------------------------------------------------------------
21:53:26  <@Estar>	well, if i'd be a girl, i would say ideidoom has ok looks

turborektator
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#18

Post by turborektator » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:40 pm

Yes what IdeIdoom said. This is just OS with 3Dfloors. You need to check map like cduel1 and build on this idea + 3Dfloors. This map is only interesting its 12 MB big. :wonk:

Zanieon
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#19

Post by Zanieon » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:05 pm

Hmm, so should i resurrect this?
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Ænima
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RE: Is the Old holding back progress?

#20

Post by Ænima » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:17 pm

IdeIdoom wrote:
Ænima wrote: Would this be a good layout for a NS duel using 3D floors? Some things need moving or re-sizing because some areas feel a bit too tight, and yeah i know nothing is detailed yet. Also ignore the unused textures.
Spoiler: layout (Open)
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Spoiler: ingame screens (Open)
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That map looks so easy to replicate without using 3D floors it's not even funny. It looks like an OS map, just with 3d floors.
If it looks so easy to replicate without 3D floors then show me how you would do it.

It's just a sketch, things do need to be moved around and spaces do need to be made better use of. I wanted to make it so that bridges would create pathways that intersect but can't just be jumped to and fro.

It's also just something I was dicking around with. It was something that was sitting on my drive that I added to this morning. I realize it's probably not the best example of what a NS map could be but I wanted to contribute what I could.

Also what defines NS outside of 3d floors and DMflags?
Reinforcements: midgame Survival joining/respawning
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