Dark Tartarus V5

[pla]

Hello everyone!

Version 5 is out, here is the download link.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/nnvrl ... rtaru5.rar

Every single map is more or less changed, there are also 2 new maps.

In general, many of the easier maps are harder because players can't exploit them anymore, harder maps are easier because of the increased options.

Also I am sorry for anyone have been anticipating to play the maps on older ports, as it turned out the work required to fix the map is much more tedious than I thought, and I am a very lazy person, so, no support for older ports.

However, I took the advantage of ZDOOM and created some interesting DECORATE. Don't worry, there are no new sprite or sound, I am pretty sure they are safe with 99% of the mods, and they only appear in TAT41-TAT43.

And I added deathmatch spawn too.

There is also a new TITLEPIC.

it's probably note worth that I shamelessly stolen a part from chillax for my TAT30.


This is really just a brief announcement, the rest is for you to found out.

Ask me anything, all feedbacks are welcome.

This will very likely to be the last release, so anyone is free to messing around with these maps.

[tyler12112]

Maps 33 - 41 consist of some of my favorite maps and I'm just noticing now that they are pretty blocky, but a V5 has me hyped! More awesome maps to come?

[Armitage]

Posting in an epic thread =D

Tartarus has terrible maps? What is this blasphemy, Every single one feels unique and a work of art, not one map is alike in gameplay or style and I honestly can't state a single which isn't enjoyable. I guess the only exception could be 31 since it's a gimmick map with cool rave music and the difficulty could be amplified seeing as your swarmed with an excessive amount of resources, but otherwise in accordance with the above post the new 33-41 series felt very original with the distinct tone in textures and retro music.

TAT35 - Devil's Tower is one of the most atmospheric and epic maps I've seen in Doom to date, both in scale and gameplay a true masterpiece. As you mentioned though the 30 series does look symmetrical and simple in style but the gameplay doesn't seem to suffer as a result, other than it may not look as architecturally interesting as the original series, especially when it comes to discovering obscure nifty secrets.

The only serious request I have is for god sakes restore TAT27 - Doomer's Room to it's original track 'Sweet Dreams', the epic rave fest was awesome and it was huge disappoint to myself and friends to see it changed all of a sudden to something slow and methodical, not fitting at all :\

[Untitled]

TAT21 I feel needs a slight rework; The invisible monsters gimmick is cool a couple times, but an entire slaughterfest of them gets ridiculously obnoxious. No one likes dealing with this kind of stuff.

TAT29 I feel should be even more impressive if possible; it IS the namesake map after all.

TAT30 is impossible, I swear. There's no where to hide from the archviles.

TAT41 is a bit of a pointless map.

Difficulty is a bit all over the place - TAT01 and TAT02 are 2 of the harder maps of the wad. Maybe a reordering is in order?

[nax]

one of my favorite maps of all time!

[Dynamo]

Looking forward to V5 :) Personally my least favorite map has to be Hex, every other map I enjoy. Though I think between V3 and V4 you did remove some of the maps, right? Perhaps, besides adding new ones, you could also improve those you removed and put them back in.

Cheers :)

[pla]

Maps 33 - 41 consist of some of my favorite maps and I'm just noticing now that they are pretty blocky, but a V5 has me hyped! More awesome maps to come?

Yes! More maps to come!

The only serious request I have is for god sakes restore TAT27 - Doomer's Room to it's original track 'Sweet Dreams', the epic rave fest was awesome and it was huge disappoint to myself and friends to see it changed all of a sudden to something slow and methodical, not fitting at all :\

I changed the music because the file size of "Sweet Dreams" is too big (about 4MB I think), on second thought maybe I should converted it to 96kbps ogg. I am not really fond the new music either, thanks for the heads up!

TAT21 I feel needs a slight rework; The invisible monsters gimmick is cool a couple times, but an entire slaughterfest of them gets ridiculously obnoxious. No one likes dealing with this kind of stuff.

TAT29 I feel should be even more impressive if possible; it IS the namesake map after all.

TAT30 is impossible, I swear. There's no where to hide from the archviles.

TAT41 is a bit of a pointless map.

Difficulty is a bit all over the place - TAT01 and TAT02 are 2 of the harder maps of the wad. Maybe a reordering is in order?

1. I am not sure if I can keep them for compatibility with other doom port, I may have to change them to stealth monster type eventually. "an entire slaughterfest" do you mean the last few area of the alternative path? you can get a megamap for that, change your automap style to rotate-overlay, and you should have a slight chance to handle them.

2. I know what you mean, the map has it's problems, the fight tends to get long and boring, and everything is pitch black except fireballs flying all over the place. Even if you know the "correct way" to beat the map, it will takes about 20 minutes... there is a lot things to fix.

3. I managed to beat it with a lot of Save/Load, just once! Even if you "airstrike" those viles perfectly. In the end, you still have to make a stand against 20+ viles or so, retreat to spawn and fire your rocket, and pray!
Don't try this at home! the map is unfair, and I will reduce the number of viles.

4. It seems many ppl are relying on that map.

5. Funny things is, never have I "arrenged" the order of maps, they are simply ordered by creation time, so TAT01 is the first maps I made. I like the current ordering because somehow there is a gradually change of mapping style, and texture useage... Anyway, you made a good point, there is no fun to stuck in the first few maps, I think I'll add some easier route for them.

Looking forward to V5 :) Personally my least favorite map has to be Hex, every other map I enjoy. Though I think between V3 and V4 you did remove some of the maps, right? Perhaps, besides adding new ones, you could also improve those you removed and put them back in.

Cheers :)

So sorry for ignoring your PM Dynamo. I have trouble logging on IRC.

Hex is actually one of my proudest , if you can tell me how and why you dislike it, I'll be happy improve it. the only change I want to make so far, is to foil camping, and maybe make it easier for use alternative way to get keys.

From V3 to V4, I only removed 1 map actually, other maps are merged together. I'll see if I can put that map back, it needs some serious editing though, thanks for the suggestion.

[tyler12112]

Well forgot to mention TAT07, worst map of the wad and I always skip, it just feels very tedious, but it just may be the fact that i hate maps that have damaging floors, dark all over, and invisible Archviles D: Also TAT30 can be beat solo with item respawn, just camp spawn and spam bfg :)

[Frits]

Oh god yes, dark tartarus is one of the best map packs I have ever played. Keep up the good work man, your stuff is legendary and way underrated.

Don't agree with nerfing tat30 though, we've beaten it plenty it's fine as it is.
We never skipped hex tyler, the final battle is amazing and it's a very cool concept. We skip that tat07 with the long blood hallways, that's the worst map in the pack for me.

Edit: I agree with arms point about the tat27 OST though the v1 one was better imho.
I think we know plenty of bugs in the mappack, I fixed some for 12-in-1. (only HOM's though, anything that could be exploited for completing the maps I obviously left in ;). I'll try to find my changelog list )

you're always welcome to hit us up on irc in the #nod channel, which is where we discuss your maps most of the time.

[pla]

Well forgot to mention TAT07, worst map of the wad and I always skip, it just feels very tedious, but it just may be the fact that i hate maps that have damaging floors, dark all over, and invisible Archviles D: Also TAT30 can be beat solo with item respawn, just camp spawn and spam bfg :)

I'll see what I can do to make TAT07 more enjoyable, perhaps add a lot of "light switches", "safe room" etc... happy excavation I guess.

For TAT30, I'll test to see how you did it.

Oh god yes, dark tartarus is one of the best map packs I have ever played. Keep up the good work man, your stuff is legendary and way underrated.

Don't agree with nerfing tat30 though, we've beaten it plenty it's fine as it is.
We never skipped hex tyler, the final battle is amazing and it's a very cool concept. We skip that tat07 with the long blood hallways, that's the worst map in the pack for me.

Edit: I agree with arms point about the tat27 OST though the v1 one was better imho.
I think we know plenty of bugs in the mappack, I fixed some for 12-in-1. (only HOM's though, anything that could be exploited for completing the maps I obviously left in ;). I'll try to find my changelog list )

you're always welcome to hit us up on irc in the #nod channel, which is where we discuss your maps most of the time.

Thanks for the reply! I'll be really appreciated if you can make me a list of bugs that you guys have discovered. Since you removed some of the HOM, I'll be making the new verison with your 12-in-1 pack as a base.

[Sandro]

I thought Dark Tartarus would never be updated again, furthermore for a final version !

It is therefore awesome to hear you are back to mapping. I discovered Tartarus two years ago, and after all these hours spent online with all my survival partners, I find it to be one of the best wads I've ever seen. Architecture sure is pretty nice (altough I've a lot of questions about it, but we all have different purpose and ways to go for it), but the gameplay is just incredible, such as the music.

That's why I thought I had to post a reply here, to speak in the debate, as I read you wanted to modify some of your maps, and as I do not agree...

For me, there is almost no need to modify any current map of the game.
Firstly, because all of them are what they were meant to be. With the exception of course about the maps you already wanted to modify - if there were any - despite of the previous version release ; but I find all of them pretty exciting as they are, and play a modified version will disappoint me for sure.
In fact, I have to admit that a lot of maps perhaps would need rework at a first glance, but they are so wonderful to play in actually that I'm just afraid to be disenchanted in a newer version of them...

Most of the time, people do not even hesitate to qualify one's work as a garbage, or just that 'it's gay/it sucks/it's the worst map ever/etc.', childish opinion to say they didn't find what they were looking for. But the purpose of your maps is, for me, decided by you, and only you.
Criticism (well, constructive criticism of course) is meant to point out what would need to be considered with more accuracy than usual. In under no circumstances it is meant to tell you what you have to do.

People like Dark Tartarus today for what it is, and even if a few guys don't like this or that map, it's still very well-received by the survival community as I can observe for years now. So, I'm just waiting to know what you really want, and what you plan to do, but nothing more, as you are the one only behind this splendid work.
It's just my opinion, and I do not reprehend any opinion of anyone in what I just wrote.

However, here are few things I noticed it would be interesting to let you know about :
- TAT27 music is just excellent. I didn't listen to previous songs - and I trust you guys when you say it was better - but if you plan to change it,
keep in mind it's a very nice song, thus it could be incorporated in another map afterwards.

- I find the music in TAT38 inconsistent. Not powerful enough to truly enjoy the map gameplay and hard fights. I would recommend to see if you are another ideas to replace it. (Opinions about it, guys... ?)

- I find TAT41 completely useless. I don't even think it's maxable without item respawn (by the way, I second Frits about TAT30),
but having 300 Cyberdemons in a tiny room have no interest at all. To be honest, the first time I tried it I just thought it was the first room of a work-in-progress. So I would say it can be improved hugely. It's the only map I do not like, whether the architecture or the gameplay.

- TAT11 (Hex) is completely fabulous, such as TAT07 (Open Season) - the concept has been brought to a stupendous style, very immersive. But once again, people complaining about it are just not liking the concept (whether or not it is fabulous ; thus it's not really useful as an opinion to rethink the map, as it concerns only one of them...) or just don't want to give it a chance. (as Frits said, they just skip it henceforth...) Any other opinion needs more constructive criticism to be considered.

- And finally, I have absolutely no idea about what I could say about TAT25 (BFG Charge), but I think I still want to say something about it...

P.S : Actually, my favorites maps are TAT02, TAT10, TAT12, TAT27 and TAT35. And the best songs used for me are : TAT05, TAT08 (thanks for this charming version of Poison), TAT23 and TAT31.
(If you are curious about how your maps can be executed, there are some videos of nice ( ) speedruns on YT - including yours truly of course -)

Anyway, keep up the good work, Pla ! We all are waiting for even more awesome stuff !

[nax]

Sandro - keep in mind that its not as if the version of Tartarus you have now will change. You can always play your favorite version.

That said, few works stand at perfection and as awesome as Tartarus is it does have its issues. Most of my issues would be for example on the City map (i forget the name, but its that absolutely giant map with the skyscrapers) on Multiplayer it tends to kick the ever living snot out of all of my clients. Tested on my own server and Best-Ever, this map is a coop wrecker. Things that make the entire wad more playable in an online environment would be nice.

[tyler12112]

I attempted to max that TAT41 online, 1 life, no item respawn and almost got it, so i went offline and attempted and yep, max is possible. More easy than expected.

[pla]

For me, there is almost no need to modify any current map of the game.
Firstly, because all of them are what they were meant to be. With the exception of course about the maps you already wanted to modify - if there were any - despite of the previous version release ; but I find all of them pretty exciting as they are, and play a modified version will disappoint me for sure.
In fact, I have to admit that a lot of maps perhaps would need rework at a first glance, but they are so wonderful to play in actually that I'm just afraid to be disenchanted in a newer version of them...

Don't worry, I will (mostly) only add more "route" to the maps to expand the possibility of gameplay, you can still finish the map the way you want.

Update: I just spent a whole night watching your speed run videos, I absolutely love them and downloaded every one of them, a lot of unbelievable crazy tricks...

Please don't force yourself if some of the maps are too hard to max ( or just plain impossible), I have never tested them for UV-Max, also, many of the secrets are placed without UV-Max in mind. (sorry about the map "nothing special")

However, here are few things I noticed it would be interesting to let you know about :
- TAT27 music is just excellent. I didn't listen to previous songs - and I trust you guys when you say it was better - but if you plan to change it,
keep in mind it's a very nice song, thus it could be incorporated in another map afterwards.

- I find the music in TAT38 inconsistent. Not powerful enough to truly enjoy the map gameplay and hard fights. I would recommend to see if you are another ideas to replace it. (Opinions about it, guys... ?)

- I find TAT41 completely useless. I don't even think it's maxable without item respawn (by the way, I second Frits about TAT30),
but having 300 Cyberdemons in a tiny room have no interest at all. To be honest, the first time I tried it I just thought it was the first room of a work-in-progress. So I would say it can be improved hugely. It's the only map I do not like, whether the architecture or the gameplay.

- TAT11 (Hex) is completely fabulous, such as TAT07 (Open Season) - the concept has been brought to a stupendous style, very immersive. But once again, people complaining about it are just not liking the concept (whether or not it is fabulous ; thus it's not really useful as an opinion to rethink the map, as it concerns only one of them...) or just don't want to give it a chance. (as Frits said, they just skip it henceforth...) Any other opinion needs more constructive criticism to be considered.

- And finally, I have absolutely no idea about what I could say about TAT25 (BFG Charge), but I think I still want to say something about it...

1. Uh... maybe you are right after all, "sweet dream" is a wonderful pieces of music, but it's a little bit too cheerful, as the map is not.

2. Honestly, I think TAT38 is my least favorite map I made, not really sure why. I didn't spent too much time testing it, and I have never seen people playing it, well... maybe it's all because the peaceful music then.

3. TAT41 is just a leftover of V3, it's not actually a level, just some "show room" for the custom content. I think people might have a bit of fun in this map, so I kept it.

4. I only want to make them more coop friendly, most of changes will only affect multiplayer gameplay.

5. I just had a though of "what happens if...", then I made this map.

Sandro - keep in mind that its not as if the version of Tartarus you have now will change. You can always play your favorite version.

That said, few works stand at perfection and as awesome as Tartarus is it does have its issues. Most of my issues would be for example on the City map (i forget the name, but its that absolutely giant map with the skyscrapers) on Multiplayer it tends to kick the ever living snot out of all of my clients. Tested on my own server and Best-Ever, this map is a coop wrecker. Things that make the entire wad more playable in an online environment would be nice.

Is that TAT29? does it cause a lot of lags? or is it gameplay issus (everything dark and boring) ? I am not certain what you meant by "coop wrecker", I'll be glad if you can specifiy them, then I can fix the map appropriately.

I attempted to max that TAT41 online, 1 life, no item respawn and almost got it, so i went offline and attempted and yep, max is possible. More easy than expected.

I never thought it was possible, too

[pla]

This update may not seems much, as there are only 2 new small maps (one map resurrected from V3). But my first priority is improve the existing maps, after all, quality is better than quantity. TAT17,TAT24 and TAT23 features new area which allow you to skip most of the "old" content, that could sorta count as the new maps.

[Frits]

Small but awesome :)

[Armitage]

On MAP21 why did you change the awesome, pulse pounding 'Iron Maiden - 2 Minutes to Midnight' to a crappy, underwhelming 'Mortal Kombat - Main Theme' redux I saw you removed the stealth monsters so I can only assume such a big decision was due to overwhelming player feedback with the majority disliking the concept as it's the most important factor which made the map unique and stand out in the first place.

Didn't change MAP27 track back to 'Sweet Dreams' worst update ever :<

I admit the title screen change was irritable at first, the previous was simple yet so iconic with the lone protagonist standing in the heart of the city on MAP29 but it's grown on me and the new track is more suitable.

I'm really impressed with the additional areas you incorporated on the opening maps, it removes the high chance of a map failure due to respawning in a near fatal situation (see 01 and 06) and it makes it more coop friendly and tactically interesting allowing for a second point of assault such as the side ambush on 01 now or the supply bunker on 05.

07 pisses me off with how new shortcuts which open either from a secret or switch which allow you to traverse the map quicker, randomly decide to close off later after unleashing a few traps. I understand the design choice as it prevents players from escaping but when you block off several corridors which were previously open and force me to trek through over half of the map to get back to the other side it's a really tease.

For the record I like 07, it's a breath of fresh air after all the LOL rape opening maps but it takes long to max solo, favourite part is the 100 Stealth Vile trap then juggling to reach the 4 invuls :D

Played up to 08 so far will continue feedback later..

you're always welcome to hit us up on irc in the #nod channel, which is where we discuss your maps most of the time.

LOL good one! xD

[pla]

Thanks for the reply Armitage!

On MAP21 why did you change the awesome, pulse pounding 'Iron Maiden - 2 Minutes to Midnight' to a crappy, underwhelming 'Mortal Kombat - Main Theme' redux I saw you removed the stealth monsters so I can only assume such a big decision was due to overwhelming player feedback with the majority disliking the concept as it's the most important factor which made the map unique and stand out in the first place.

In regard to the mortal kombat music, personally I don't think it's a such bad track, and it's helpful to keep the total file size down. My wad is already over 90 MB, which is a pain to download.

Removing the invisible monsters is a indeed big decision for me, when I see people playing online they just like "this map is gay", and most of players vote to skip it.

But now I think such change might be unfair for some (good) players, you did made a point though, it will make me feel bad if I don't do something about it. Once enough problems are addressed, I'll release a "final fixed" version with another exit leading to the old TAT21, I'll see if I can do anything about the music too.

Didn't change MAP27 track back to 'Sweet Dreams' worst update ever :<

I just found out the current music for TAT27 took sheer 3.7 mb! somehow I forgot and thought it was a lot smaller, convert 'Sweet Dreams' to ogg and lower the bit rate will certainly beat that, since it's a shorter tracker.

07 pisses me off with how new shortcuts which open either from a secret or switch which allow you to traverse the map quicker, randomly decide to close off later after unleashing a few traps. I understand the design choice as it prevents players from escaping but when you block off several corridors which were previously open and force me to trek through over half of the map to get back to the other side it's a really tease.

They will only close if you get the "super secret" (area accessible after you killed all the fatso, near the hoard of demons). the maze will then rearrange, stealth arch-vile will spawn to reanimate the monsters, there is only one way out, closing the portal will prevent cheap escaping.


I am just glad you like the new areas, and I am looking forward hear more from you.

[Armitage]

That was a quick response :o

For MAP21 you could potentially keep both maps but have the old one as a secret map, since it's ZDoom your not restricted to just having MAP31 and MAP32 as secret level slots and MAP15/31 as the only maps with secret exits. Do hocus pocus file converty for Iron Maiden track.

Oh and that's no problem on 07 then, I thought it closed incrementally not after obtaining that super secret.

[Armitage]

The Mortal Kombat track isn't bad by all means but I became fond of the old one and came to always associate it with that map. Likewise and admittedly the map is more enjoyable without invisible monsters but it'd still be cool to keep the original for the sake of originality :)

I like how you modified the exit for 10 to include those safety walls to stop you from being Cyber raped, makes it more balanced going for the deadly HK surfing technique >:D

15 is awesomesauce with the outer barrier and additional walls which act as a double edged sword as while they provide cover they can trap you between HK'S and Revs if you run out of cells. I also like the trollish Cybs teleporting into start area then snipe you through the invisible transparent walls >.>

20's extended secret area is funny but placing the Invul further away forces you to run a greater distance making it less useful and you can get trapped by AV's if not quick enough xD

23 has the greatest complaint from me, although the alternative route is cool transversing the many wooden bridges and platforms in the middle of the map, the inner circle surrounded by slimefalls (see sector 2468) is lame and boring with those useless distant Imps and Demons, they should all be replaced with Revs and have Arachnotrons teleport behind and in front of you after you reach midway in my opinion ;) There should be 10 AV's behind the door after the BFG in that brown brick room xD

What's with the alternative route ending up in the drink afterwards? I saw no teleporters you could use to get out, that's either a huge mistake or very lame resulting in an inevitable death :P