Do you use mouselook? Good idea?...

[Kara Kurt]

More like an advantage. Not only because it's too easy to set up by anyone but it's also up to the player to use it when the server allows it.

However jumping and crouching on a vanilla map would be considered cheating.

Mouselook should have been a Doom thing imo.

[De-M-oN]

Freelook is cheating too for the given reason: Range. Autoaim has a range limit - and if you bypass it - oh yes it is cheating if you reach enemies which you arent supposed to reach. Further you can bypass enemies below/above you to reach a flying cacodemon with rockets instead of blowing yourself up by the demon below your ledge.

Remember downtown, remember Industrial Zone. You can reach the chaingunner at MAP15 in the building from other side. Wouldnt be doable because of the range limit of autoaim.

Freelook at original maps is cheating like jumping and crouching - oh yes.

And also you should play original maps with original engine behaviour. Just think about the fact about the possibility to jump over actors, instead of getting blocked by them and even get the melee attack of them - regardless of the height.

Sure - if the server hosts it wrong it makes not much sense to disadvantage yourself to the other players. But for single player or a server hoster this should be in mind before deciding.

[Cruduxy]

It isn't like vanilla doom on UV is any difficult no matter how many ways you try to gimp yourself. This almost holds true to all Iwads except Plutonia and randomly on Hexdd\Strife.

[De-M-oN]

Game gets extreme easier then though. Thats the point. Not how hard the game is or not. The point is, the game gets with these thing a lot easier.

Plutonia is designed for non-freelook as well and would get much easier with it enabled as well. So whats your point with the difficulty level? The fact is, the game gets easier with this, while the wad wasnt designed for this advantage.

There are also wads which use these limits to make it more difficult as well. For example one map had non-reachable chaingunners - except with rocket splash damage. With Freelook you can just snipe them with chaingun.

The maps just arent designed for freelook etc.

And there are still people who didnt play doom yet. Should they play the wrong game? For new people the game can also be sometimes difficult in the way it is now.
A german lets player "Rahmschnitzel" had very trouble with doom 2's Ultra-Violence sometimes. I dont get your difficulty point at all.

Also: Doom 1 Episode 4 the first two levels are pretty decent in difficulty, especially for new players.

[Cruduxy]

really? I never have any problem in Doom2 and might as well pacifiest maps.. The wads are easy with or WITHOUT mouselook. And by going full vanilla might as well disable autorun even if it can be enabled because thats the default (Then doom 2 might get a hint of difficulty here and there, although I doubt it'll ever become hard.

Difficulty isn't measured by new players.. UV is supposedly for veterans but it fails horribly in that regard.

[Kara Kurt]

If maps aren't designed for mouselook it's up to the admins to set their servers properly, not the user fault that he's used the mouselook that is very easy to use and not a super range / verticle view exploiter to be considered a cheat.

Now on the multiplayer, mouselook is also useful when using RL / Plasma while the autoaim isn't.

[De-M-oN]

autorun on/off isnt a gameplay advantage, just avoids annoying pressing whole time the shift key. This is ok imo.

But how said: I dont get why the difficulty does matter in this case? People have different skill and yes except for E4M1, E4M2 I agree that Ultra-Violence is too soft - especially the bosses are a bad joke.
But different people, different skills. That doesnt change the fact that it makes the game even more easier if you use freelook and all the engine enhancements like non-infinite z-height of actors and so on.

Plutonia is harder though and its levels are designed for vanilla game behaviour and limits as well.
Freelook would give me sooo often ridiculous advantages like jumping would do.

If maps aren't designed for mouselook it's up to the admins to set their servers properly, not the user fault that he's used the mouselook that is very easy to use and not a super range / verticle view exploiter to be considered a cheat.

Of course it is not users fault when a server has the flags wrong. I wouldnt disadvantage me myself to other players then too. Thats logical and nobody denied that.

[Kara Kurt]

The only thing that would really but really give the mouselook an advantage on vanilla maps is rocketjumping; even without jump you'd reach things that you aren't supposed to, basically. After all there's a flag that prevent that, it's called blast physics or something similar.

[De-M-oN]

and the reasons I gave several times now.

Do you really need a video example to see that it makes the game much easier if you can bypass the range limit to begin with?

[Kara Kurt]

I don't need the mouselook to make things much easier. Do you know what I need? An autoaim that is working.

[De-M-oN]

The thing is that you can reach enemies farther than the range limit of autoaim. And the range limit was intentional.

[Kara Kurt]

I understood, but I'm not really into pure oldschool coop anyway.

[Ermac]

Free look always on but m_yaw : m_pitch ratio is 4 cuz horizontal axis is more important.

[Watermelon]

Freelook is cheating too for the given reason: Range. Autoaim has a range limit - and if you bypass it - oh yes it is cheating if you reach enemies which you arent supposed to reach. Further you can bypass enemies below/above you to reach a flying cacodemon with rockets instead of blowing yourself up by the demon below your ledge.

Remember downtown, remember Industrial Zone. You can reach the chaingunner at MAP15 in the building from other side. Wouldnt be doable because of the range limit of autoaim.

I think you'd need to check if vanilla's max bullet range is the same as the 1024 map unit tracer range for autoaim detection. If so, then freelook doesn't add anything you can't do in vanilla doom. IIRC, Zdoom made the limit like 20480 map units for hitscan, so this definitely changes a lot just by playing this port. This is a good vanilla question.


Though I think everyone would agree with you that jumping and all that other stuff is definitely the most exploitable and cheap way to win Doom maps :D

[De-M-oN]

bullets and projectiles have both the same limit.

GZDoom and zandronum dont seem to widen the limit to me. Especially not 20480 o.o

I'm surprised, but this thing really should have a video to show it? ^^

I think I'll make one then.^^

[Dusk]

I am confused. The topic talks about mouselook yet everybody talks about freelook instead?

[Galactus]

I am confused. The topic talks about mouselook yet everybody talks about freelook instead?

Are you trying to be a smartass?

[De-M-oN]

but he is right. The topic is in real about freelook.^^

[Kara Kurt]

No it's about the range comparison between Freelook vs Autoaim.

[Discount Ninja]

I personally don't like autoaim in any sense. I like to know where my projectiles are going so I can lead targets. It was a technical limit at the time and I don't like it when it is artificially enforced.

I personally like a challenge in level design and monster layout, rather then an artificial one where I'm fighting with an engine handicap.