Thoughts on cooperative game modes

[ARGENTVM]

I have to admit; I'm speaking from a very different perspective from everyone else, because I run Stronghold - well, SamsaraHold, but I'm pretty much the sole person keeping stronghold alive at this point - and in Stronghold, the game does scale ammo counts, heal-pack counts, monster counts, powerup counts, everything counts.

As insane as this sounds, this only works because literally 100% of pickups are given through ammo/health pads (and the ammo pads spawn things via ACS), so it's not something one could do conventionally.

And even then, stronghold's scaling wasn't perfect; there are several times where linearly scaling how many monsters teleport in doesn't actually give you a proper difficulty curve; one player can probably SSG a Boss Monster, 8 players probably can't SSG 8 Boss Monsters.

And even then, map design comes into play - as people have mentioned, some maps just aren't suited (at all) for certain playercounts.

I've been doing a lot to improve that, though. Honestly, SamsaraHold at insane playercounts might be fun, until everyone gets kicked from the server for packet loss. (SamsaraHold induces a truly ridiculous amount of packeting when things start going wrong. It's my only standing issue.)

In my opinion?

Although I've played a lot of wads that don't scale well; I can't really blame them because good multiplayer scaling is very difficult.

Linear scales can only go so far even in survival wads. I've only seen a couple of wads that feature scaling based off of the number players (usually linedef triggers in wads like TNT or Icarus, though this was usually in the form of really simple or ancient and sometimes broken modifications of the map). Proper scaling would definitely require a decent amount of public testing and peer review and is probably something that is seldom considered especially since many PrBooM/Doom2.exe/etc. survival wads may only account for single player and may not even touch (or just barely) multiplayer assets.

Linear scaling may work in some situations with weaker monsters but it's certainly a different scenario with much more difficult enemies, as well as with ammo/health/powerup distributions. Even then, you could compensate for some of this by having areas of the map being accessible only in Multiplayer, but even then it may not even be applicable for some situations (areas that lock a player in and cut them off from resources, et cetera).

Since a lot regarding scaling is relative, it is difficult to achieve a good scalar (especially without testers/players testing for exploits in maps). I still hold to having numbers of items/monsters based off of the number of players, but as said, it simply just can't be a linear increase (especially when factoring in different monster types or substitutions).

If maps stopped handing out Artifacts -megasphere, soul etc- and blue armor even vanilla would be a bit more challenging, Of course without hordes of enemies. Most map in multiplayer just turn into slaughterfests with pickups and monsters everywhere. Or are balanced for up to four players with all respawns being off. And eventually turn into the same hold bfg fire while mowing down 100 -insert enemy type- over and over.

Might it be worth having maps that require the player to work for that reward? Wads that hand out powerups like candy do get somewhat annoying especially if it is unnecessary for what you have to deal with in the map), though I don't mind the occasional slaughterfest that may occur that requires a powerup for preparation, but I see where you are coming from on this topic.

It might also be worth hiding some of these artifacts on side paths to explore or even in difficult-to-find secrets.

[Untitled]

Untitled ever considered buffing up enemies with more players instead of adding more enemies to waves -Kinda like in shotgun frenzy-? I know it isn't like the original stronghold but it plays a lot better in multiplayer.

There's actually three reasons why I don't do that; one is extremely convoluted and will make you lose faith in Zandronum, so I'll tell you the simple reasons:

1. This kinda hoses over really small maps; pain elementals and lost souls (!!!) would pretty much be game over right there. As well, maps that require players split up get all sorts of wonky. And don't get me started on maps that throw fast but otherwise not too difficult monsters. The issue is that it may make the game too hard.

2. It limits the cash pool. Because there's now only a limited set of demons to kill that will never increase, you don't actually have as much cash per player. This brutally divides the money, and as a result, a lot of the later missions become straight-up impossible; stronghold completely assumes you are using items. It's how it gets away with some of the more BS waves.

Linear scales can only go so far even in survival wads. I've only seen a couple of wads that feature scaling based off of the number players (usually linedef triggers in wads like TNT or Icarus, though this was usually in the form of really simple or ancient and sometimes broken modifications of the map). Proper scaling would definitely require a decent amount of public testing and peer review and is probably something that is seldom considered especially since many PrBooM/Doom2.exe/etc. survival wads may only account for single player and may not even touch (or just barely) multiplayer assets.

PrBoom/Vanilla wads aren't gonna have good scaling, just given the nature of the fact that their only tool for multiplayer is "Cooperative" and "Not Cooperative"

And yeah, I can vouch for it requiring testing. The only reason Samsarahold is half as balanced as it is would be due to testers who had to run into a lot of BS balance first.

Linear scaling may work in some situations with weaker monsters but it's certainly a different scenario with much more difficult enemies, as well as with ammo/health/powerup distributions. Even then, you could compensate for some of this by having areas of the map being accessible only in Multiplayer, but even then it may not even be applicable for some situations (areas that lock a player in and cut them off from resources, et cetera).

Scaling things in the way I did at all only comes remotely close to working in stronghold; where everything can be ported into a bunch of arbitrary spawning pads, where I can spawn exactly as many as needed.

and even then, balance is wonky.

Since a lot regarding scaling is relative, it is difficult to achieve a good scalar (especially without testers/players testing for exploits in maps). I still hold to having numbers of items/monsters based off of the number of players, but as said, it simply just can't be a linear increase (especially when factoring in different monster types or substitutions).

Yeah, it really can't. That's what I said up in my original post; in fact, I actually start editing monster composition if the game detects there's too many players; to keep things balanced out to some extent or another.

If maps stopped handing out Artifacts -megasphere, soul etc- and blue armor even vanilla would be a bit more challenging, Of course without hordes of enemies. Most map in multiplayer just turn into slaughterfests with pickups and monsters everywhere. Or are balanced for up to four players with all respawns being off. And eventually turn into the same hold bfg fire while mowing down 100 -insert enemy type- over and over.

Might it be worth having maps that require the player to work for that reward? Wads that hand out powerups like candy do get somewhat annoying especially if it is unnecessary for what you have to deal with in the map), though I don't mind the occasional slaughterfest that may occur that requires a powerup for preparation, but I see where you are coming from on this topic.

Yeah; a lot of this is wad dependant. For Example, without powerups, I'm pretty sure the hard part of Deus Vult II would be straight-up impossible (looking at you, MAP23).

On the other hand, placing these too generously makes it too easy; but the again, having too many makes it too easy in single player too, so I don't see how Cruduxy's trying to argue here.

It might also be worth hiding some of these artifacts on side paths to explore or even in difficult-to-find secrets.

Depends what kind of map; in some maps (especially lower-scaling ones), a megasphere is way too powerful to get off a secret area. It'd be like putting a SSG/BFG in a level that otherwise uses the shotgun/plasma rifle; the "secret" is completely mandatory to literally everyone and everyone will get it.

In other wads, a Megasphere is just a normal a health pickup. Wads of that kind usually also have monster counts in high hundreds or even thousands.

TL;DR people: Good multiplayer scaling is ridiculously hard.