WhoDunIt teamkilling.

[Zeberpal]

*Teamkill is a part of the game. You can't find out who is murderer if you don't technically teamkill.
*Teamkill is a way to disguise for murderer. He can teamkill some guy to make innocents believe that guy is the real murderer.
*Teamkill is a way to attract players. Some people even find it funny to let someone teamkill themselves to look silly.



*Teamkill is a tool to troll. Some people play WDI just to beat the shit out from everything they see. For fun. They don't really care on a primary gameplay targets.
*Teamkill is a way to troll someone you don't like. A troll connects to a server just to knock down a certain guy all the time. Just because he don't like him for various reasons.


Long time ago WDI creators said TK is allowed. But is it allowed even for complete jackasses, who use this rule to TK and TK and TK and laugh at admins and TK? Some time ago, few prominent zancommunity people(not saying) aliased and had a TK fest, claiming it was "played by the rules". There's been enough of confusion over this rule. Gotta clear this once and for all.

Should people be temporary banned after their teamkill spree 3 rounds in a row?

Please leave your opinions and argue it.

not making a poll, to exclude trollvotes.

[Kaminsky]

For those who deliberately team kill fellow innocent players without any justification, they deserve to be banned temporarily from the server. An ACS code could possibly be used to resolve this issue, similarly to how Zombie Horde manages players who exit the game. Even though the player(s) are removed from the game automatically upon killing at least two innocent players, they will not stop unless desperate measures are taken. Most servers that host WhoDunIt lack any support from the administrators, either because they're unavailable or show little concern for the well being of the community.

Should any implementation of banning a player from a server as a result of team killing be taken, one thing to take into consideration is for players who may accidentally kill an fellow innocent player, such as misfire.

[legion]

1) you are already punished in-game for killing an innocent, intentional or otherwise
2) intentionally killing everyone friend or foe is bad gameplay. you don't ban really bad players in a pub server, that just isn't good business
3) attempting to determine who exactly is teamkilling and who just makes a bad call and killed an innocent would needlessly increase the work of moderators and admins tenfold due to the nature of the gameplay
4) end of the round scoreboard specifically has a section for paranoia kills

at the end of the day, its far healthier to not ban anyone for what amounts to being bad at the gamemode

[Leonard]

1) you are already punished in-game for killing an innocent, intentional or otherwise

The problem is that absolutely nobody cares. Once someone wants to tk you nothing is stopping them and the punishement is pretty much inexistent since everyone else will give them their 'beating' leaving them as if nothing happened.

3) attempting to determine who exactly is teamkilling and who just makes a bad call and killed an innocent would needlessly increase the work of moderators and admins tenfold due to the nature of the gameplay

It is in fact extremely easy. Just play on a server and you'll notice that people who team kill just for the hell of it are pretty much always the same.

For those who deliberately team kill fellow innocent players without any justification, they deserve to be banned temporarily from the server.

End of story.

[Fused]

I just noticed I accidently deleted my reply on this, so I'll repost it.

I encounter alot of people in Grandvoid that encounter this annoying problem, and most of the times i cannot help them out because it's not bannable.
I get TK'd alot of times myself while it's very clear that i'm not the murderer (i.e. murderer kills somebody while i face that person or the person knew in advance.

In my opinion you should let the admins decide whenever they find it banworthy or not. In alot of cases teamkilling in this mod is just to troll people. I don't see cases every often when a non-murderer teamkills a player just to help out that murderer.

[CloudFlash]

IMO the whole 'I killed my friend, but my other friend slapped me in the face so I guess thats okay, right' thing should be removed. You kill your friend, you should be put in jail. And since this is Zanzan we're talking about, being an easy prey is the closest doable thing to a jail.

[legion]

The problem is that absolutely nobody cares. Once someone wants to tk you nothing is stopping them and the punishement is pretty much inexistent since everyone else will give them their 'beating' leaving them as if nothing happened.

great! while they're at it, a smart murderer will come in and berth both of the fools. the one standing there like a moron getting pounded, and the guy doing the pounding. free 2+ kills

if the murderer happens to not be there, well fine, one less fool to worry about, and that giant aura is just heaven for any murderer, considering they lose all their current medkits

let them tk all day long

also see points 2 and 4, which you glossed over as though it didn't strengthen the other points

It is in fact extremely easy. Just play on a server and you'll notice that people who team kill just for the hell of it are pretty much always the same.

it is not as clear cut as that. sure, there are the fringe cases where some idiot continually teamkills round after round, but usually those are either beaten up by everyone else who are intent on playing the game or just get bored and leave

if admins were to start punishing for smaller cases of teamkilling (streaks of several teamkills in the course of say, an hour+) irc reports would multiply by a lot and moderating a single server would turn into a casual experience to a 8 hour workday (exaggeration, I know)

consider the fun! it would get boring very fast if no teamkilling took place at all. I think it simulates situations where some guy who starts teamkilling everything is like the guy who snaps in a horror movie and holes up in the woods, trusting nobody. who dun it is an excellent human psychology experiment

For those who deliberately team kill fellow innocent players without any justification, they deserve to be banned temporarily from the server.

End of story.

no not really. see above

IMO the whole 'I killed my friend, but my other friend slapped me in the face so I guess thats okay, right' thing should be removed. You kill your friend, you should be put in jail. And since this is Zanzan we're talking about, being an easy prey is the closest doable thing to a jail.

you're already easy prey for an attentive murderer, since you lose all your medkits and health regeneration until you dip to a precarious and dangerous health percentage



everyone appears to want to shoehorn strict, competitive rules into a gamemode which is not inherently competitive and would be impossible to make any sort of competitive league out of. treat it as human psychology experiment, not as a highly competitive league with a set of strict rules. you'll have more fun!

[Leonard]

great! while they're at it, a smart murderer will come in and berth both of the fools. the one standing there like a moron getting pounded, and the guy doing the pounding. free 2+ kills

You don't seem to get what inexistent means. Almost every time someone has an aura, someone else will give them their beating and sometimes even give them health as if what they did was good.

and that giant aura is just heaven for any murderer, considering they lose all their current medkits

As I said the punishement is pretty much inexistent. Someone will remove their aura and then they will find other medkits. It's as simple as that and to be honest it takes no time to recover properly. Again, as if nothing happened. Since their aura is no longer here, how does the murderer knows that they team killed anyways?

but usually those are either beaten up by everyone else who are intent on playing the game or just get bored and leave

No that never happens.
I'm going to repeat that a lot but the punishement is literally inexistent.

if admins were to start punishing for smaller cases of teamkilling (streaks of several teamkills in the course of say, an hour+) irc reports would multiply by a lot and moderating a single server would turn into a casual experience to a 8 hour workday (exaggeration, I know)

But that's not what's being asked here, at least for me..
I just want the punishement to become real for those people who purposely team kill. They absolutely do not fear at all the current 'punishement'..

also see points 2 and 4, which you glossed over as though it didn't strengthen the other points

2) intentionally killing everyone friend or foe is bad gameplay. you don't ban really bad players in a pub server, that just isn't good business

In fact it's the opposite.
I've seen someone deliberately push other people in front of monsters in survival gamemodes and everyone vote kicks them.
But that's not a good example as it is not a 'part of the gameplay' like you may say.
Let's say that we're playing team deatchmatch and that team damage is turned on. Sure it's part of the gameplay and it can happen that you kill a teammate by error. But then if someone starts killing all his teammates for no reason, he gets kicked. Simple as that.

4) end of the round scoreboard specifically has a section for paranoia kills

Yes and it was named paranoia for a reason..
That's what the author was talking about.
If you think someone is the murderer and you kill him then that's paranoia but if you intentionally team kill someone because you don't like him or whatever that's murdering..

[CloudFlash]

IMO the whole 'I killed my friend, but my other friend slapped me in the face so I guess thats okay, right' thing should be removed. You kill your friend, you should be put in jail. And since this is Zanzan we're talking about, being an easy prey is the closest doable thing to a jail.

you're already easy prey for an attentive murderer, since you lose all your medkits and health regeneration until you dip to a precarious and dangerous health percentage

Yeah, except there will almost always be a group of friendly players who will fist such an outcast and then treat him to a medkit party. Oftentimes, not even a full minute passes between 'murd-wannabe murding someone' and 'murd-wannabe having 3 meds and full HP'.

[legion]

if you're experienced in the gamemode, then the punishment is actually very existent. skilled players will avoid getting their health to dip so low, to avoid the murderer as much as possible. attentive murderers will keep their sound up loud to hear those groans and can discern when people are being beaten within inches of their lives.

and where are they going to find new medkits? they'll have to wait for medkits to respawn in most cases, since everyone always picks them up beforehand.

You don't seem to get what inexistent means. Almost every time someone has an aura, someone else will give them their beating and sometimes even give them health as if what they did was good.

you seem to lack reading comprehension when it comes to context, but english may not be your first language, which is understandable.

the situation which you quoted there was referring to the act of people teamkilling before one of them are actually dead. no auras were referenced there

As I said the punishement is pretty much inexistent. Someone will remove their aura and then they will find other medkits. It's as simple as that and to be honest it takes no time to recover properly. Again, as if nothing happened. Since their aura is no longer here, how does the murderer knows that they team killed anyways?

I counter with the assessment that only situationally unaware players will consider the punishment to be intexistent.
there are three ways how the aura will play out:
1) aura doesn't go away, alleged teamkiller forages for new medkits, having lost both his current medkits and health regeneration
2) aura is punched away, so now the alleged teamkiller must find new medkits, he has regained health regeneration, but is below full hp and will be for awhile until he finds new medkits, his old ones now inaccessible
3) murderer finds either the alleged teamkiller and innocent going at it, in that case, BERTH. or, he finds a loner foraging for medkits with an aura, in which case, FREE KILL.
all of that is bad gameplay. the game punishes you for bad gameplay such as teamkilling, whether or not you feel it is "inexistent" or otherwise, with a huge decrease in your survivability

But that's not what's being asked here, at least for me..
I just want the punishement to become real for those people who purposely team kill. They absolutely do not fear at all the current 'punishement'..

the punishment is already real. what you, and a few others, are asking is essentially punishment for being bad at the gamemode, which is a tenuous position to hold when administrating servers

In fact it's the opposite.
I've seen someone deliberately push other people in front of monsters in survival gamemodes and everyone vote kicks them.
But that's not a good example as it is not a 'part of the gameplay' like you may say.
Let's say that we're playing team deatchmatch and that team damage is turned on. Sure it's part of the gameplay and it can happen that you kill a teammate by error. But then if someone starts killing all his teammates for no reason, he gets kicked. Simple as that.

poor example(s). tdm, as it is recognized by clans/competition in general is stringent and has a set of rules governing common etiquette
survival is the same, although less stringent because there are multiple situations for things (for example, the shot could have been an accident!)

who dun it is literally the opposite of a competitive league in regards to gameplay. there are so many situations that can and have occurred that it would be pure folly to attempt to try and reign it in

let me lay down the scenario for you: you have two options as administrator of a whodunit server
1) ban nobody and let the game play itself out
2) ban anyone who teamkills for 20 minutes, regardless of the situation.

middle ground is ineffective for everyone involved, as a human being will not be able to determine with 100% accuracy who might be trolling and who might just be bad at the game

it is far more fair for everyone to just let the game play itself out

hope this helps

EDIT: some good murderers are even skilled at getting teamkilling to start.

I cannot hammer the point home hard enough that teamkilling is part of whodunit

[Leonard]

1) aura doesn't go away, alleged teamkiller forages for new medkits, having lost both his current medkits and health regeneration
3) murderer finds either the alleged teamkiller and innocent going at it, in that case, BERTH. or, he finds a loner foraging for medkits with an aura, in which case, FREE KILL.

It is very rare that someone stays with his aura.
As for the murderer coming in to kill them I admit it does happen sometimes.

2) aura is punched away, so now the alleged teamkiller must find new medkits, he has regained health regeneration, but is below full hp and will be for awhile until he finds new medkits, his old ones now inaccessible

If the murderer doesn't come, that happens almost 100% of the time.
Finding new meds is usually not a very big problem. And as I said sometimes people will even give it to you after punching out the aura..

all of that is bad gameplay. the game punishes you for bad gameplay such as teamkilling, whether or not you feel it is "inexistent" or otherwise, with a huge decrease in your survivability

Yes I agree that if someone is somewhat new to WDI and unintentionally kills an innocent thinking they are the murderer, that is bad gameplay.
But what we're talking about here is trolls. They usually know what the punishement is. And they are 100% prepared for it. And if they do not fear the punishement, we may as well consider it inexistent since a punishement is supposed to dissuade a certain action, especially when someone knows what that punishement is beforehand.

You may still say that the punishement is real, but if it does not dissuade people then it is an extremely ineffective punishement.

what you, and a few others, are asking is essentially punishment for being bad at the gamemode, which is a tenuous position to hold when administrating servers

Being bad at a gamemode and deliberately ruining it for someone else are two different things.

let me lay down the scenario for you: you have two options as administrator of a whodunit server
1) ban nobody and let the game play itself out
2) ban anyone who teamkills for 20 minutes, regardless of the situation.

Might as well add:
3) ban the trolls who intentionally ruin the game for other people.

middle ground is ineffective for everyone involved, as a human being will not be able to determine with 100% accuracy who might be trolling and who might just be bad at the game

You make it sound like it's extremely hard to spot a troll.
I can tell you it is very easy in who dun it especially since the trolls are almost always the same people.

[legion]

trolling is, effectively, bad gameplay. there are different varieties of trolls, from the singular dudes who just run around like a chicken with their head cut off, to the guys who actually band together in a teamspeak, mumble, or vent server and kill people collectively as a group. when I first saw this, I wanted to ban these people, but in the end, the overall gameplay is changed very little, and I think it's another part of the "human psychology experiment" aspect to the game (groups forming, a la lord of the flies)

3) ban the trolls who intentionally ruin the game for other people.

you cannot claim that "trolls" ruin gameplay when people are, apparently, that bad at running away from the very obviously aggressive players. if players are so bad that they essentially run into these aggressive players time and time again then they were probably going to die anyway

you make it sound as though teamkillers and aggressive players ruin wdi games, when in reality, they have little to no effect on games.

[CloudFlash]

1) aura doesn't go away, alleged teamkiller forages for new medkits, having lost both his current medkits and health regeneration
2) aura is punched away, so now the alleged teamkiller must find new medkits, he has regained health regeneration, but is below full hp and will be for awhile until he finds new medkits, his old ones now inaccessible
3) murderer finds either the alleged teamkiller and innocent going at it, in that case, BERTH. or, he finds a loner foraging for medkits with an aura, in which case, FREE KILL.

Um... not to sound rude, but... have you even ever played WDI? Because WDI maps are basically huge as from here to the Moon and have a craploads of medkits. And here you expect the murd to supervise every single player, because he might kill someone/start beating someone who already killed someone else. All that while boobytrapping/stealing all random medkits so innocents cannot use them. All that while being totally not suspcious. And all that while killing people on his own.
Yes, I know murd has his batcaves. Yes, I know murd with a knife moves faster. Yes, I know he has berths. But ffs, his batcaves let him go out only on few chosen places that others usually dont hang around, running around with a knife is the easiest way to have yourself gangbanged and murd can carry only one berth with himself at a time.
Also:

The problem is that absolutely nobody cares. Once someone wants to tk you nothing is stopping them and the punishement is pretty much inexistent since everyone else will give them their 'beating' leaving them as if nothing happened.

great! while they're at it, a smart murderer will come in and berth both of the fools. the one standing there like a moron getting pounded, and the guy doing the pounding. free 2+ kills

You don't seem to get what inexistent means. Almost every time someone has an aura, someone else will give them their beating and sometimes even give them health as if what they did was good.

you seem to lack reading comprehension when it comes to context, but english may not be your first language, which is understandable.

the situation which you quoted there was referring to the act of people teamkilling before one of them are actually dead. no auras were referenced there

Oh, my, my, my...

[HeavenWraith]

I can see that persuading anyone in this conversation is futile, I will just post my vote with a short reason.

I think teamkilling should be allowed and not punished in any way outside the game itself. I can't stress enough how in this social psychology driven game not only the murderer is your enemy. You're on your own, and you're free to make your own decisions on anything. You can form teams, you can be lone wolf who murders anyone who enters your turf. Sort of small scale survival game like one of those DayZ knock-offs. The only thing, in my opinion, that should be punished with kicks/bans is exploiting game/map bugs (like how people used to shovel-check murderers, etc.)

[legion]

-snip-

ive played whodunit multiple times over the course of multiple years, playing with some of the best wdi players that have ever played. ive played under various pseudonyms and seen just about every situation that can occur in the gamemode

ive also been administrator over most whodunit sessions that have occurred over all this time (rcon admin to grandvoid and at least one other major cluster which hosted whodunit which is now defunct)

I can safely say I know what im talking about

Oh, my, my, my...

my context was apparently lost on leonard in those quotes, which was of the vein of "oh, these morons are attacking each other? cool free kills!", not "oh here's a guy with an aura"

tell me you can see that

[Zeberpal]

As HeavenWraith said, persuading anyone in this conversation is futile. This is my opinion below.

When I use a TK word in this thread, I mean "monsterple TK idiot"
I want to hope, that both HW and Legion witnessed situations like that. We never meet on wdi server as admins because of timezones, I think.
Everyone used shovel-check and I'm sure it was impossible to ban majority of people on the server too.
A guy TKing me 3 rounds in a row(≈15-20 mins)? I can take that. What if he just doesn't stop, he keep doing it from round to round, my words don't react on him - should I keep enjoy it?
I want to find and face a Murderer, not a stalking idiot. That is why I come to play.
Remember TKer doesn't play, he troll. Plus, minority of people are pros in this game, not everyone. Troll is usually a pro, though.
As an example in ZH, they ban wayblockers. A small troll thingy, which screws up the game for certain people.

You ban complete idiots for TK troll time to time to show, that this server is being watched and moderated as well. That'll be a lesson for the others not to do dumb things here.
Mazter's ZH moderation as example, clean and enjoyable for past two years. Noone wants to get a ban.

I guess, you think that I'm a dictadmin, who would ban any TK in sight.. I'm talking about situations when it's goes off the line completely.
I think this discussion should remain with open end, as I think that you guys are mistaken, as well as you think I do. Drama P.S. I'm afraid you don't really evaluate situation enough,
and arguments technically sounds more like: "Go on troll, we don't care".

[Catastrophe]

Hi, I'll go ahead and give my two cents even though I'm a notorious teamkiller.

A guy TKing me 3 rounds in a row(≈15-20 mins)? I can take that. What if he just doesn't stop, he keep doing it from round to round, my words don't react on him - should I keep enjoy it?

And in those three rounds you didn't think once to change your color? When I go around teamkilling the first thing I look for is color. If they still see you then the person was possibly f12 cheating and should be banned.

I want to find and face a Murderer, not a stalking idiot. That is why I come to play.
Remember TKer doesn't play, he troll. Plus, minority of people are pros in this game, not everyone. Troll is usually a pro, though.

Orrrrrr you can simply out maneuver teamkillers and change your color / switch weapons when they aren't looking. Then you can team up with the next guy he'll teamkill and beat him to a bloody pulp instead.

Complaining gets you nowhere. If you react to being teamkilled it only fuels us more.

You ban complete idiots for TK troll time to time to show, that this server is being watched and moderated as well. That'll be a lesson for the others not to do dumb things here.

I remember when there was that trinity Who Dun It server and your so-called "moderators", would go around teamkilling their own player base just for fun.

I'm afraid you don't really evaluate situation enough, and arguments technically sounds more like: "Go on troll, we don't care".

Idk, when a teamkiller is done teamkilling they do play the game properly right afterwards so...

[CloudFlash]

My proposition: WDI crew should make an addon patch that would make TK auras last forever, other addon patch that autokicks the tker, one more addon patch that bans players for an hour if they do 2 tks, and then they should host a server, one full week with 1st patch, other week with 2nd patch and one more week with 3rd patch, then compare the number of TKs on each week, and make the winner patch legit.

[TheMightyHeracross]

Kicking or banning over teamkilling would be detrimental to the game. There's a reason that you don't know who the murderer is right off the bat- it's a mystery. Anybody around you could be the murderer, and you have to decide whether or not to trust them. Getting kicked or banned for teamkilling would take that away. I don't even consider it teamkilling- I don't consider anyone my "teammate".

I agree with HeavenWraith here.

[Leonard]

Kicking or banning over teamkilling would be detrimental to the game. There's a reason that you don't know who the murderer is right off the bat- it's a mystery. Anybody around you could be the murderer, and you have to decide whether or not to trust them. Getting kicked or banned for teamkilling would take that away. I don't even consider it teamkilling- I don't consider anyone my "teammate".

But we're not asking about kicking every single team killer..
Here we're asking to kick those who will ruin the game for everyone.
Sure team killing is a gameplay element but it can be abused just like any.

Here's another example: If you've ever played trouble in terrorist town on gmod or cs, you'll notice that a lot of servers have strict rules.
My personal favorite server, quite popular, banned you if you randomly team killed someone without any valid reason of suspicion.
And trouble in terrorist town is pretty much whodunit with guns..



My opinion is the same as Zeberpal.
Here's my point of view: just like legion, I can agree that team killing is a part of the game however if you intentionally abuse it, you get kicked. That's it really..

By the way, does anyone remember riben? He got banned after all, right?