Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

Discuss all aspects related to modding Zandronum here.
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Hypnotoad
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#21

Post by Hypnotoad » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:57 pm

Quaker540 wrote: Even with the 2.5.0 version jump I still can't play my favorite mods on it. The only things I can run on Zandronum are map packs.
Most new GZDoom mods aren't really designed for multiplayer in the first place.
Take my modder place for a minute. How can you test your mod if the engine doesn't support your code? How can I know how it works on multiplayer? How can I even know if it works?
By testing? You can also grab an ACC package for Zandronum from here: http://wiki.zandronum.com/Downloads so a lot of stuff that only works on zdoom simply wont compile.
Once again, I can't run anything with Zandronum but map packs or skin packs. How on earth can I play then?
This is such bullshit. Zandronum supports heaps of ACS and Decorate code and you can still create all kinds of fairly involved/complex mods, even it doesn't have everything the latest zdoom does. At this stage, the sort of functionality that has really been missing for me is persistent data storage, that is a lot more important for me than more decorate flags. I'm painfully aware of how far behind Zandronum is to ZDoom, but honestly for most missing functionality there are workarounds, at least with 2.0.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#22

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:38 am

Once again, I can't run anything with Zandronum but map packs or skin packs. How on earth can I play then?
Quickly glancing through the server list I see that almost every populated server (except CTF), has some form of mod loaded.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#23

Post by ibm5155 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:30 am

pff, the only limit is the modder creativity.
As an example of abandoned mines map, I made the ravishing ghoul a long time ago, and since it's a different kind of ai compared to vanilla monsters, and here the problem starts, 50% of the things used on decorate zandronum didn't supported, what I did? I used something called brain, I cleaned the ravishing decorate code and made it an "ACS" code, so before ravishing was 100% decorate and now it's 40% decorate and 60% acs :D

I would go with Torr, time is a precious resource that you cannot get more, it just decrease,...

And trying to make a "blind compile" doing alot of ctrl-c ctrl-v normally end with no compiled source '-', I know there are alot of revisions (ehm 10.000? D:) but hey, that thing is so easy to port that even I ported a revision :lol: (and even then I had some problems with missing codes D:)

since zandronum 2.0, It may be arcaic, but I still don't see a use for all that features that I can do in other ways on 2.0 ...
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#24

Post by XutaWoo » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:46 am

Quaker540 wrote: At the moment I don't see any news about this subject.
Currently it's a one-man project by Edward850. Most of the progress is reported via irc, although a few screenshots have been shown in the WIP thread over at ZDoom.
Quaker540 wrote: It will actually take the same time. All Zandronum's/GZDoom's files have been updated with Client coding. When I say "Client coding" I mean that there's for example "Tell clients to not act like this" etc.
This is why it's not a client-server structure he's using, it's a master-slave. All games in this structure, iirc, play on their own but the master keeps its slaves in check and resyncs them if they desync badly enough to cause a problem. That way, the amount of coding needed for multiplayer beyond a lack of a single implicit player is minimal compared to the client-server architecture, where there's only really one game that clients send input to.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#25

Post by AkumaKing » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:56 am

I don't care what happens, I just want easy multiplayer (being able to browse a server list, having at least 15 or maybe even 30 players, etc) with all of ZDoom's features.

Either Zandronum gets up to date (which is probably will eventually) or ZDoom gets better multiplayer. (Though, ZDoom with better multiplayer would be better since they'll probably have more features by the time Zandronum gets up-to-date with the current build anyways.)

Also, lets not discourage this guy. I'm not sure if he'll get far with this, but I'll be happy as fuck if he succeeds.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#26

Post by Torr Samaho » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:16 am

Quaker540 wrote: It IS difficult, I never said it isn't. At the moment I will only update all base files and Doom's ones, which is why I use this port; I've never played Strife/HeXen/Heretic on Doom's ports. When I'll update all base files and Doom's ones, I'll compile it and fix any errors I found.
This seems to indicate that you have not much of an idea about ZDoom's inner workings. You can't just update part of the files in the "file by file" approach in a reasonable way. Also, all the mods you want to play may need stuff from the non-Doom game logic.
Quaker540 wrote: "How much experience do you have with ZDoom's and Zandronum's inner workings?"

Ah buddy, I had lots of C++ experiences.
Is there a language barrier? I have not asked for your C++ experience. Considering what you are planning, I take sufficient C++ experience for granted. Without it you shouldn't even start.

Anyway, if you manage to get the files updated and everything compiles, you'll run into dozens of problems like this, where things break because of the code base updates. To get a glimpse on what awaits you after things compile, I suggest you to fix this small problem. This will help 2.0 and will let you check if you can take care of the small problems that will await you along the way of what you have planned.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#27

Post by Quaker540 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:07 pm

I'm not really sure what all of you guys mean. This is why I didn't got what Torr Samaho said at first.

"This seems to indicate that you have not much of an idea about ZDoom's inner workings. You can't just update part of the files in the "file by file" approach in a reasonable way. Also, all the mods you want to play may need stuff from the non-Doom game logic."

What did you mean "non-Doom" logic? Sorry for being so stupid but I really can't understand what your point is.

"Is there a language barrier? I have not asked for your C++ experience. Considering what you are planning, I take sufficient C++ experience for granted. Without it you shouldn't even start."

About their inner workings as you say, I've read multiple times it's code and even saved them in a notepad and then compile. I've even read Doom's source code. I'm not really sure what else do you mean.

"Anyway, if you manage to get the files updated and everything compiles, you'll run into dozens of problems like this, where things break because of the code base updates. To get a glimpse on what awaits you after things compile, I suggest you to fix this small problem. This will help 2.0 and will let you check if you can take care of the small problems that will await you along the way of what you have planned."

I'm gonna check this out, but I've one problem; Where have you saved the code for the flags? I can't find it anywhere. I've probably seen it one time or even missed it, but I'm not sure.

"Also Edward850 has to be the most stuck up arrogant dipshit I've met in the Doom community, forget supporting him."

I agree. I've to TOTALLY agree with this. Why haven't they gave him a warning at least? If I were an Administrator, I'd.

"I heard zdoom mp is not that great right now."

It's because their main goal is singleplayer.

"I don't care what happens, I just want easy multiplayer (being able to browse a server list, having at least 15 or maybe even 30 players, etc) with all of ZDoom's features.

Either Zandronum gets up to date (which is probably will eventually) or ZDoom gets better multiplayer. (Though, ZDoom with better multiplayer would be better since they'll probably have more features by the time Zandronum gets up-to-date with the current build anyways.)

Also, lets not discourage this guy. I'm not sure if he'll get far with this, but I'll be happy as fuck if he succeeds."

Brotha, if you weren't somewhere else in the world I'd give you a high five that would break your goddamn arm (Or mine depending on who's tougher)!

Because from now on you are my favorite Doom user!

"And trying to make a "blind compile" doing alot of ctrl-c ctrl-v normally end with no compiled source '-', I know there are alot of revisions (ehm 10.000? D:) but hey, that thing is so easy to port that even I ported a revision Lol (and even then I had some problems with missing codes D:)"

You had problems because the whole situation IS NOT only CTRL+C and CTRL+V. There are many "tweaks" Zandronum does like that the clients should hear your attack, should spawn what you did etc. Due to this there are many things that have to change. Zandronum is a MULTIPLAYER-ORIENTED SOURCE PORT when GZDoom is a SINGLEPLAYER-ORIENTED SOURCE PORT. Those are COMPLETELY different things, and I've to adjust everything due to this.

---Unnecessary insult removed by Quaker540. Nobody needs to see my attitude I had back then---
Last edited by Quaker540 on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#28

Post by Hypnotoad » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:20 pm

Quaker540 wrote: Sure. Skin WADs and Font changers.
You really don't know anything about Zandronum do you, I'm starting to doubt you have ever even played it. How is something like Whodunnit, or ZDoom Wars, Stronghold etc.. just "Skin Wads" and "Font Changes", that's absolutely insane.
Last edited by Hypnotoad on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#29

Post by Chronos Ouroboros » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:22 pm

Quaker540 wrote:It's because their main goal is singleplayer.
Nope.
Their main goal is modding support and flexibility.(IIRC)
And IMO ZDoom's multiplayer code is better than Zandronum's MP code.
[spoiler]Why? Because Zandronum's has carncode on i-*brick'd*[/spoiler]

EDIT: Also, this: http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... 15#p769110
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#30

Post by AkumaKing » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:26 pm

Then ZanRun, Prop Hunt, Super Demon, Sector Craft, etc. There's all sorts of mods out there.

Also, I'm just gonna disagree on Edward being stuck-up and what-not.
Meanwhile, ZDoom multiplayer isn't too bad. It's just not ideal.

Also, don't make someone your "favorite Doom user" from a single post. Not too wise as one post doesn't represent a whole person very well.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#31

Post by one_Two » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:37 pm

AkumaKing wrote: Then ZanRun, Prop Hunt, Super Demon, Sector Craft, etc. There's all sorts of mods out there.

Also, I'm just gonna disagree on Edward being stuck-up and what-not.
Meanwhile, ZDoom multiplayer isn't too bad. It's just not ideal.

Also, don't make someone your "favorite Doom user" from a single post. Not too wise as one post doesn't represent a whole person very well.
Especially when real candidates like Capo can't even post.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#32

Post by Quaker540 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:56 pm

"You really don't know anything about Zandronum do you, I'm starting to dout you have ever even played it. How is something like Whodunnit, or ZDoom Wars, Stronghold etc.. just "Skin Wads" and "Font Changes", that's absolutely insane."

Instead of being a dick why don't you just say that there are mods to play? I'd also like to point that out that I DON'T play such mods. I also need to mention that I've played Zandronum online.

"Also, don't make someone your "favorite Doom user" from a single post. Not too wise as one post doesn't represent a whole person very well."

Haha, I was just kidding. Of course I can't make someone my favorite Doom user from a single post! ;)

In the meantime I think that's not better to post or even read your posts here as all of them are a strong push to discourage me on continuing the project. Well no, I'm not going to stop.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#33

Post by Hypnotoad » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:03 pm

Quaker540 wrote: "You really don't know anything about Zandronum do you, I'm starting to dout you have ever even played it. How is something like Whodunnit, or ZDoom Wars, Stronghold etc.. just "Skin Wads" and "Font Changes", that's absolutely insane."

Instead of being a dick why don't you just say that there are mods to play?
You reap what you sow. You were being a huge dick by dismissing many modders' thousands of hours of cumulative work between them, and all the creativity and innovation spawned by this, as mere "skin packs and font changes".
Last edited by Hypnotoad on Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#34

Post by one_Two » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:04 pm

Quaker540 wrote: "You really don't know anything about Zandronum do you, I'm starting to dout you have ever even played it. How is something like Whodunnit, or ZDoom Wars, Stronghold etc.. just "Skin Wads" and "Font Changes", that's absolutely insane."

Instead of being a dick why don't you just say that there are mods to play? I'd also like to point that out that I DON'T play such mods. I also need to mention that I've played Zandronum online.

"Also, don't make someone your "favorite Doom user" from a single post. Not too wise as one post doesn't represent a whole person very well."

Haha, I was just kidding. Of course I can't make someone my favorite Doom user from a single post! ;)

In the meantime I think that's not better to post or even read your posts here as all of them are a strong push to discourage me on continuing the project. Well no, I'm not going to stop.
You'll carry on for 1 month max, keep hitting walls, get pissed off/bored then give up.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#35

Post by Quaker540 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:10 pm

"You'll carry on for 1 month max, keep hitting walls, get pissed off/bored then give up."

You wish.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#36

Post by Ivan » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:46 pm

Quaker540 wrote: "You'll carry on for 1 month max, keep hitting walls, get pissed off/bored then give up."

You wish.
I give him one "file by file" backport. Then he'll quit for sure.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#37

Post by Frits » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:01 pm

Good luck bro, I hope you make it to the end. Only time will tell.
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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#38

Post by Torr Samaho » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:06 pm

First, let me make one thing clear, I do not want to discourage you or to change your goal. We even seem to share the same long term goal, namely to bring Zandronum up-to-date with ZDoom. What I do want is that you rethink the strategy you have chosen to pursue your goal. With what I suggested, your changes of succeeding are greatly increased. You seem to have a lot of energy and ambitions and I want you to succeed, because then everybody benefits.

First, let me be brutally honest to point out why I think you are going to fail with the file-by-file approach:
Quaker540 wrote: I'm gonna check this out, but I've one problem; Where have you saved the code for the flags? I can't find it anywhere. I've probably seen it one time or even missed it, but I'm not sure.
This question shows that you are neither sufficiently experienced with ZDoom's inner workings (otherwise you would know the answer) nor sufficiently experienced with programming in a large scale project (otherwise you would find the answer in a minute with your favorite search tool) to go for the file-by-file approach.

Having the blunt part said, you can surely learn everything you need and the revision-by-revision approach combined with fixes of backport problems will help you learn exactly what you need (and helps Zandronum along the way). To get you on track with the fixing part, let me try to answer your question: The flags are declared in one place, but the implementation is not centralized, but scattered all over the source. Do you have a tool at hand that can search through all source files simultaneously? Searching the code for the flag name is the easiest way to find where the implementation is. A quick search reveals that the internal name of BOUNCEONACTORS is BOUNCE_AllActors (seen in thingdef_data.cpp). Further searching for BOUNCE_AllActors shows that P_BounceActor in p_map.cpp is a place to start looking for the problem.
Quaker540 wrote: What did you mean "non-Doom" logic? Sorry for being so stupid but I really can't understand what your point is.
For instance, all the function pointers introduced by the Heretic, Hexen and Strife classes. Even some Doom mods tend to use them heavily.
Quaker540 wrote: About their inner workings as you say, I've read multiple times it's code and even saved them in a notepad and then compile. I've even read Doom's source code. I'm not really sure what else do you mean.
For instance, how ZDoom handles the game logic. How the main Doom loop is structured, what thinkers are, what the tickers are, how state jumping works, how actors can travel from map to map, how the platform dependent code interfaces with the non-platform dependent code, and dozens of other things.
Quaker540 wrote: "Quickly glancing through the server list I see that almost every populated server (except CTF), has some form of mod loaded."

Sure. Skin WADs and Font changers.
Intended or not, this is a huge insult to Zandronum's modding scene as a whole. If this is your true attitude, I doubt that any further discussion will lead to anything.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#39

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:20 pm

Quaker540 wrote: "Quickly glancing through the server list I see that almost every populated server (except CTF), has some form of mod loaded."

Sure. Skin WADs and Font changers.
...

You did not just say that.

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RE: Can I make a fork of Zandronum?

#40

Post by Ivan » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:39 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
Quaker540 wrote: "Quickly glancing through the server list I see that almost every populated server (except CTF), has some form of mod loaded."

Sure. Skin WADs and Font changers.
...

You did not just say that.
He did and for people like these all we can do is just ignore and let them rot in their boiling sweat.
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