Ban in Grandvoid servers for nothing

[Ijon Tichy]

@Catastrophe:
All you proved is that there are idiots. Those are the same idiots you ignore. That doesn't mean everyone is an idiot, and it surely doesn't undermine the purpose of openly posting evidence of hacking or what-have-you.

Also, there was no implication that everyone's opinion would be treated equally, because, yes, most people are not experts in cheat-detection. The idea is not to work the general populace into making these decisions. The idea is to have something to point to, in the open, as proof that a decision is valid. It's to keep the admins accountable, which, again, was a blatantly-expressed intent of the staff when going into Zandronum. Isn't that what the community wanted? Is openness no longer wanted?

[MrSetharoo]

"'X' is not cheating u guys r mad cuz he pro jejeje xdxd"

Well, if the admins point out in which part of the demo the cheating is visible and explain it why it's visible (and not just a lucky shot) then these guys have nothing to base their arguments on.

Besides, I'd love to learn a bit from the pro admins catching cheaters. It's embarrassing to report someone for cheating and have it turn out that it wasn't the case at all. Happened to me multiple times. I started questioning my intelligence ever since the last time that happened.

Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference from the player point of view unless its a sudden shift in skill level with someone or someone instantly turns around and pops off a rail through you, but thats the point of Demos.

Also it can be easy to get a little salt when someone is better than you. Sometimes you just gotta stick through it or move to a new server.

I think there should be an anonymous posting for the public evidence.

[IdeIdoom]

Being too open can lead to problems, like in real life. Some things you need to do with PMs and with professional people who can catch cheaters, because, if in a thread where it shows every evidence of people getting caught hacking, the cheater's friend can come and just post about anything related to "My friend's not a cheater" and create quite the drama. Or post by a person who can't recognize cheats.

[Ijon Tichy]

Being too open can lead to problems, like in real life.

And being too closed led to the mass dissent and hatred towards the administration in Skulltag. Need I even point out ZDaemon?

For the record, the system I'm proposing is extremely similar to how the US court of appeals works. It's worked pretty well over the past 200 years. What's going on here would be more akin to the secret FISA courts. Sure, they might make the right decision. How would you ever know?

Some things you need to do with PMs and with professional people who can catch cheaters, because, if in a thread where it shows every evidence of people getting caught hacking, the cheater's friend can come and just post about anything related to "My friend's not a cheater" and create quite the drama. Or post by a person who can't recognize cheats.

man
it'd be great if we had rules to deal with shitposting

wait

[Ninjamander]

Basically public opinion can be too stupid or too blind to be accepted in a public "X got banned for Y reason, with evidence" thread.

Exactly.

so basically..we are all stupid people? Even if the community opinion > a single person? community opinion > arbitrary decision?

edit: Don't it defeat the purpose of zandronum existence in this case?

So you're saying that the communities opinion outweighs that of people who have consistently and effectively caught cheaters in the past?

Keep in mind that the community also include the admin as well. We all need to work together. Zandronium was made to also respect the same public opinion. As metal say <If we have a disagreement, in a civil manner, lay it all out on the table, agree to disagree and respect others opinions.>

I never said we are all stupid people, but in our community there are stupid people who make the dumb and blind opinions.

Arbitrary decisions are made by professionals that know what they are doing when caughting cheaters.

Depend of your definition of <professionals>. They do have some valuable experience to detect and decide those kind of thing I believe and it help a lot's. They are also people who are volunteers to help and make this place better. They are doing a great job so far I would say.

[IdeIdoom]

I never said we are all stupid people, but in our community there are stupid people who make the dumb and blind opinions.

Arbitrary decisions are made by professionals that know what they are doing when caughting cheaters.

Depend of your definition of <professionals>. They do have some valuable experience to detect and decide those kind of thing I believe and it help a lot's. They are also people who are volunteers to help and make this place better. They are doing a great job so far I would say.

Professionals, in this case: people who can intercept cheaters by either using tools to do so or give aways in demos.

As for the first part. Wrong. We need to work all together when IT'S POSSIBLE. These things that can't be solved by users (unless they are the ones that report it) and shouldn't get interfered by said users. They have no experience in such jobs.

[Metal]

Is there a demo of this person cheating? If so, could I have it, even if it's via PM?

[ibm5155]

there's no Professional in discover a guy's using cheat :v
The best way is to use a demo + a cheat system that shows all the players inside walls, if things fits (someone shooting a wall where on cheat shows a player on that wall),...

Also, I don't see noone defending he, I only see people asking if he or other guy had a demo,... Or asking who banned who?

[Catastrophe]

So people who have no idea what they are talking about should have input against cheaters? Ok mr. Logic

[The Toxic Avenger]

Yeah we don't need to go back to the public Wall of Shame ST had in 2009. While I'm for community involvement, I think cheating bans should mostly not be handled in the public forum view where things can go awry easily.

[Ninjamander]

So people who have no idea what they are talking about should have input against cheaters? Ok mr. Logic

Making a generalization of the public as people <who have no idea what they are talking about> is not better. Those people <who have no idea what they are talking about> are also player part of this community, facing a cheater is something that may eventually happen to everyone. Not everyone in the public are idiot. I apologize to anyone who take what I say as something personal, this if not my intention.

Information =/= decision

The administration have the right to apply the rule, they represent the community and they voice, they have the ability to decide for the community. Yes, I'm aware not everyone can identify a cheater properly, is also possible to be biased, tired and etc. This is the reason why a review should not only be done by a single person right?

this thread and topic derail quite a lot's and it was not my intention. I apologize if I hit anyone <sensitive spot>. My intention was to provide a suggestion and hear a opinion about it. Not drawing a line between the administration and public.

[Catastrophe]

You know what is the best example? TTA is right, the hall of shame. The public got to give an input about the punishment people would receive, and you know what happened? Circle jerking and band wagoning. Nothing got done, it was literally people saying "yes" to everyone listed just to fit in.

[Ninjamander]

You know what is the best example? TTA is right, the hall of shame. The public got to give an input about the punishment people would receive, and you know what happened? Circle jerking and band wagoning. Nothing got done, it was literally people saying "yes" to everyone listed just to fit in.

If what TTS say is right, then yes, this is actually a valuable reason to keep the current banning system, because ST show it was impossible for this community it seem =/

edit: On a side-note, shamming people cause more trouble then anything else, something I notice with experience.

[MrSetharoo]

There shouldn't just be instant wall of shame. there should be steps to dealing with cheaters. In my opinion it should be...

Step 1: if caught cheating ban from the server itself and host/hosting service is notified.
Step 2: if caught again server cluster ban(or what ever that's called. i.e. being banned from all BE servers) and some kind of notification on websites or somewhere to let other hosts/hosting services know this person has been caught cheating.
Step 3: if caught cheating third time, community wide notification and banned from the entire community (this will require absolute concrete evidence that in no doubt shows the player was cheating on multiple occasions)

Not exactly perfect but that's my suggestion.

[Catastrophe]

Orrr it can stay the way it is and they are banned for a year.

[Shane]

The criticism is welcomed, but the current system of dealing with cheaters is really quite effective. First timers are banned for an entire year, giving plenty of time to reflect on their actions and make the decision whether to continue down the path or just be plain ignorant about it.

As for the matter of making ban notices, it's best not to do so. Cheaters or not, public humiliation is not a prime choice to make for the administration.

[Ruin]

I'm pretty sure the system we have in place already works well enough. Though I'm an advocate for a permanent ban for cheating on the first offense. As it is how cheating is treated pretty much everywhere else but here. I don't think making the banning of a cheater into a public carnival is a good idea. TTA's mentioning of the Wall of Shame brought back some bad memories for me as well. I would much rather have a small group of experienced people who know what to look for deal with these kind of things rather than tossing all of it out into the public. I can just imagine threads filled with angry finger pointers fighting with the accused cheater's personal internet defense force (Oh wait..). To be honest, I don't see a need for it either. On the point of demo availability, I think demos can be easily acquired by just about anyone if they just ask.

[SwordGrunt]

I'm sure the master admins don't ban anyone by just f12'ing them and noticing they're cheating, the demos are there, right? That's the important thing, so you don't have some drama shitfest starting when someone complains they were masterbanned "because the admin didn't like them" or some such.

Speaking of drama whatever people tried to start here about open administration is pretty damn pointless, as Ruin said above there shouldn't be a reason why you can't see a demo if you ask an admin (and there is said demo). The problem comes when there's no proof of the person cheating besides 1 person's opinion. While I'm sure the master admins are fit enough for the job, and I trust them, they're also human and can make mistakes.

[Ruin]

I'm sure the master admins don't ban anyone by just f12'ing them and noticing they're cheating, the demos are there, right? That's the important thing, so you don't have some drama shitfest starting when someone complains they were masterbanned "because the admin didn't like them" or some such.

Demos are the first thing we ask for when someone joins #staff about a possible cheater. Nobody is banned on a whim.

The problem comes when there's no proof of the person cheating besides 1 person's opinion. While I'm sure the master admins are fit enough for the job, and I trust them, they're also human and can make mistakes.

Which is why we have multiple people who know what to look for, sit through the demos and see if they can spot anything. You would be amazed to know how many butthurt duel participants come into #staff and try to accuse a clean player of aimbotting. It is very rarely (if ever) left to just one person to decide. And yeah, mistakes are bound to happen. That's why the staff discussion board and #staff exists so that if one is made, you guys can yell at us and curse our names until you turn blue.

[Shane]

Speaking of demos and butthurt duels, I like to take this moment and just place a small reminder to be more vigilant on whose a hacker and who is not. I make it a point to sit through every demo that players submit to me, and normally 1/8 times it's all normally just a null accusation, it's okay just to be safe, but it does take up a lot of time to go through these things. So please take a second thought before submitting a demo.