Zandronum TDM League : Discussion

[Nati46]

People are complaining about force respawn , and the fact people cannot respawn below the 2 seconds limit.

As far as I remember the respawn handling in Zandronum is identical to how it was in Skulltag. And in Skulltag the respawn behavior hasn't changed for at least half a decade either. So how can people suddenly complain about things that have been like this for ages?

Guess force respawn wasn't used commonly, esp. in tournaments, and when we activated it here most people weren't used to it and didn't want to wait.

[Torr Samaho]

Why don't you just turn it off then and play like people did for the last decade? Nobody should be surprised if Zandronum behaves like it always did.

[Nati46]

Why don't you just turn it off then and play like people did for the last decade? Nobody should be surprised if Zandronum behaves like it always did.

Well having a 7 min timelimit means people can just take the lead and just not respawn until the end, they can also do it sparingly so that it's harder to detect, so we pretty much need to have it (and I really do want to keep the timelimit)

[Kara Kurt]

People are complaining about force respawn , and the fact people cannot respawn below the 2 seconds limit.

As far as I remember the respawn handling in Zandronum is identical to how it was in Skulltag. And in Skulltag the respawn behavior hasn't changed for at least half a decade either. So how can people suddenly complain about things that have been like this for ages?

Because nobody cared about it. Because there wasn't any tdm tourney using a timelimit. Maybe it wasn't necessary in the tdm organized 2 years ago.

But in our case it is problematic, hence why we're complaining.

[Torr Samaho]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that you organize a Zandronum tournament and I'm willing to contribute my share by making adjustments to the engine to cater to the players' needs. The only thing bothering me is that you start complaining that the engine is doing what it has been doing for a decade after the matches were supposed to start.

Anyway, regarding what could be changed to allow the matches to played in the way you'd like them to: The problem would be solved if "sv_forcerespawn 1" would force players to respawn after 2 seconds no matter if voluntary instant respawning is allowed or not, right? (which seems to be what Ch0wW's patch is intended to do).

[Watermelon]

ACS DEATH CLIENTSIDE script that calls a consolecommand to join if the player stays dead?

[Nati46]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's great that you organize a Zandronum tournament and I'm willing to contribute my share by making adjustments to the engine to cater to the players' needs. The only thing bothering me is that you start complaining that the engine is doing what it has been doing for a decade after the matches were supposed to start.

Anyway, regarding what could be changed to allow the matches to played in the way you'd like them to: The problem would be solved if "sv_forcerespawn 1" would force players to respawn after 2 seconds no matter if voluntary instant respawning is allowed or not, right? (which seems to be what Ch0wW's patch is intended to do).

We aim to have forced respawn on (2 seconds) but to have people able to spawn beforehand if they press space/fire, we have tried Ch0WW's patch and it seemed to work, I didn't notice any bugs yet so it's good news.
We definitely don't blame the developers for not adding this, because forced respawn was so sparsely used anyhow that most people probably didn't even bother to note it due to it being used so rarely, or just didn't care (afaik it was only used in NS timelimit duels so it didn't get much attention). With this tourney, however, the problem becomes more prevalent and thus recieves more attention.

The reason why we don't want instant respawn is due to double teamkills with BFGs which were pretty common in training which we did not want, and on the other hand limiting someone to wait 2 seconds, is, well, annoying because players aren't used to it, and it would also give the other team a big advantage.

[capodecima]

ACS DEATH CLIENTSIDE script that calls a consolecommand to join if the player stays dead?

Hi watermelon you could join odamex dev team with this knowledge.

[infurnus]

Friendly reminder to stay on topic

[Hypnotoad]

ACS DEATH CLIENTSIDE script that calls a consolecommand to join if the player stays dead?

I actually made a script like this and choww made a wad using it which will be on the non baseq servers not running the custom binary I guess.

[Ch0wW]

ACS DEATH CLIENTSIDE script that calls a consolecommand to join if the player stays dead?

I actually made a script like this and choww made a wad using it which will be on the non baseq servers not running the custom binary I guess.

Yup, Which is available HERE ("F"orce "RESP"awn "FIX") . Don't forget you'll have to set forcerespawn to 0, and instarespawn to 1 !

Uhhhhhhhh there was a time limit. There was instant and force respawn on and never a problem. The problem is that you are disorganized as fuck and blaming the port for things you did not sort out in advance.

Wow. Never saw such a great answer.
You didn't know there was a timelimit?
How would you know in advance that this problem would be one for players?

But enough with this bs, go on, propose some help :)

To be honest, Zandronum is far far away from a port that could be customized for tournaments (and from a perfectly stable multiplayer coding for players, not being able to enable at least the basic gameplay behaviour from Doom). Also, dmflags are too vague, meaning that for 1 setting (take for instance the player respawning behaviour), lots of dmflags that doesn't seem to be useful are present (instainstaspawn, seriously?). Why not having instead a cvar to control that ?

But as I've just said, that gave me an idea ; when i'll have some time (read as: When Zandronum 2.0 will be released), i'll start making a stripped down and competitive version of Zandronum, having only competitive gamemodes (TDM/Duel/CTF mostly), rewriting some DMFLAGS that can pose problems, etc etc...
That's still an idea after all.

[capodecima]

Just curious who won this tourney you still talk over and over. I finally understood you want pat on the shoulders for this. Ok Decay very good job. I dont fucking know which tourney you ran but gj man. Its probably too bad you are only dumb box mapper you could easy find job here like admin in tourney section.

[Ch0wW]

You like my style of posting? I got tons more where that came from, just say the word and I'll deliver.

I just love it :)


Anyway I'm not sure where you are getting I didn't know there was a time limit. Read more closely.

Also I would test out any and all settings in advance and establish the servers in advance as well.

You still don't gave an answer of how you could help about a hardcoded problem that the players are complaining. Of course we, servermakers, are doing that. But let's face it: How would you know a problem that players are complaining right now (ie: impossibility to respawn below 2 seconds) with those kinds of settings instead of having a bad and a very bad situation for players?
(my situation would be to be on Oda/Zdaemon at least or to get a fork with modified respawn behaviour that would mimick the respawn of Doom, but they prefered to stay on Zand)

BS? I'm not the only one who thinks this has been a terrible job of organization, just nobody else bothers to post it, or not in plain language. I proposed suggestions etc before it began, it was either ignored by Chronique or raged at by the right-fighterpilot. It is entirely frivolous to post any helpful suggestions, I was simply responding to suggestions made about the tournament I ran 2 years ago (which started and completed within 2 weeks).

You're not the only one then arguing about the organisation of this. I've myself complained to Chr0nique about lots of flaws about the settings (and even the port), but that's it.

But you're right on a point: he also made a mistake on Zdaemon with a same kind of competition, well I think he may have done that again. But
after all, next time, he knows where to look...

[Nati46]

You still don't gave an answer of how you could help about a hardcoded problem that the players are complaining. Of course we, servermakers, are doing that. But let's face it: How would you know a problem that players are complaining right now (ie: impossibility to respawn below 2 seconds) with those kinds of settings instead of having a bad and a very bad situation for players?
(my situation would be to be on Oda/Zdaemon at least or to get a fork with modified respawn behaviour that would mimick the respawn of Doom, but they prefered to stay on Zand)

I think, but I don't know (I cannot code), a wad could be used to force spawn times, via acs or something. I seem to recall seeing servers that used such a feature back in the day but I could be mistaken. So I cannot give an answer regarding help.

As for "how would I know," see:

Also I would test out any and all settings in advance and establish the servers in advance as well.

I think a wad or server patch is an agreeable solution for such customization, and certainly better than a port that does not implement unlagged or is unreliable in terms of shots landing.

I never meant to say you were off-track with these implementations, I was merely informing Chronique about settings that were previously used that nobody complained about ~at the time~

Ch0w already implemented a fix which seems to work so that part's covered already.

[Ch0wW]

I think a wad or server patch is an agreeable solution for such customization

As a serverhoster, I cannot accept much to do that...
To be honest, I can accept a patch or two (odaflagx for example is one I can accept easily, the flags above the head is absurd), but doing a server with fixes for anything and nothing in ACS... I'm always scared that ACS using can become malicious and also not 100% effective (the fix hypnotoad gave us made some rare cases where ACS's auto-respawning never happened) ; so better is to code an engine-workaround to make everyone happy, to be sure everything will be alright without overloading the server with wads :/.

But what's done is already done... And in case of, I published an unoptimised -but- working engine-side fix (2nd coding balise) on the previous page.

and certainly better than a port that does not implement unlagged or is unreliable in terms of shots landing.

I cannot agree more... Just that Zandronum seems to have that issue...
The fact you're mentioning that hits and puffs are desync'ed is something that shocked me most when I played back the new-skulltag Zandronum recently. Feeling the SSG being unreliable between the client and the server gives me an idea of how the netcode is done, even if I have to deal with...

Also, unlagged or not, I see no difference, except being able to hit more badly with than without)

Seeing half-implanted elements without extensive testing on a port is something I don't like much but well... (zdaemon is also a great exemple of half-verified things given like that, not optimising things -- launcher -- without even giving a damn about players wanting flexibility and easier navigation... But that's off-topic)

[Dragon]

It was me and Strangl/Razgriz who won division one.

[Torr Samaho]

To be honest, Zandronum is far far away from a port that could be customized for tournaments (and from a perfectly stable multiplayer coding for players, not being able to enable at least the basic gameplay behaviour from Doom).

What basic Doom gameplay behavior are you referring to? I assume you can't be talking about the respawning behavior players complained about, because Vanilla Doom couldn't handle it like you want it to be either (see my comment further down).

Also, dmflags are too vague, meaning that for 1 setting (take for instance the player respawning behaviour), lots of dmflags that doesn't seem to be useful are present (instainstaspawn, seriously?). Why not having instead a cvar to control that ?

The two flags you are talking about may not be doing what you want them to do and also are probably not as well documented as they should be. Nevertheless, they have a precisely defined behavior and do exactly what they are supposed to do: sv_forcerespawn forces players to respawn as soon as they are allowed to respawn, and compat_instantrespawn allows players to respawn instantly.

But as I've just said, that gave me an idea ; when i'll have some time (read as: When Zandronum 2.0 will be released), i'll start making a stripped down and competitive version of Zandronum, having only competitive gamemodes (TDM/Duel/CTF mostly), rewriting some DMFLAGS that can pose problems, etc etc...

I think more fragmentation is something the multiplayer Doom scene certainly doesn't need. If you manage to improve Zandronum, I'll gladly integrate your patches into Zandronum itself.

get a fork with modified respawn behaviour that would mimick the respawn of Doom, but they prefered to stay on Zand)

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but AFAIR Vanilla Doom never supported the behavior you want. So if you want Zandronum to be more like ZDaemon or Odamex, fine. But then say so openly instead of falsely claiming you want Zandronum to be more like Vanilla Doom.

[Frits]

get a fork with modified respawn behaviour that would mimick the respawn of Doom, but they prefered to stay on Zand)

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but AFAIR Vanilla Doom never supported the behavior you want. So if you want Zandronum to be more like ZDaemon or Odamex, fine. But then say so openly instead of falsely claiming you want Zandronum to be more like Vanilla Doom.

Learn to accept zandronum instead of wanting to have zdaemon under a different name. It might be the standard for all of you who migrated here but you're forgetting a big part of the player base that started and grew on zandro. All these compat flags and stuff just to make it behave like a port it's not.
And i'm not talking about the heavy modded stuff. I like DM/TDM/CTF with zandro flags and handling. I don't know if i'm the only one who feels that way though.

[IdeIdoom]

get a fork with modified respawn behaviour that would mimick the respawn of Doom, but they prefered to stay on Zand)

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but AFAIR Vanilla Doom never supported the behavior you want. So if you want Zandronum to be more like ZDaemon or Odamex, fine. But then say so openly instead of falsely claiming you want Zandronum to be more like Vanilla Doom.

Learn to accept zandronum instead of wanting to have zdaemon under a different name. It might be the standard for all of you who migrated here but you're forgetting a big part of the player base that started and grew on zandro. All these compat flags and stuff just to make it behave like a port it's not.
And i'm not talking about the heavy modded stuff. I like DM/TDM/CTF with zandro flags and handling. I don't know if i'm the only one who feels that way though.

And this is why our ZDC is better than this tournament. Better organization, better admins, and no specific servers, just pick NJ, UK GV, FR GV, what ever you want to play on and do your matches.

[Ch0wW]

Correct me, if I'm wrong, but AFAIR Vanilla Doom never supported the behavior you want. So if you want Zandronum to be more like ZDaemon or Odamex, fine. But then say so openly instead of falsely claiming you want Zandronum to be more like Vanilla Doom.

JCD & I are 2 veteran DOS DOOM.EXE players, and we can respawn instantly if we've been killed. That's the way Doom handled respawns.
Now, please allow me to ask a question. When Zandronum's DMFLAGS DF_FORCE_RESPAWN is on, you have to wait 2 seconds before respawning. But why forcing INSTANTLY if the dmflag for instant respawn is on?

Why not simply keeping the traditionnal respawn behaviour with DMFLAGS on? Everyone then would be happy for that.
I'll be happy if I could give at least some help ; that's after all a hobby I'm having with opensource game projects :)

And this is why our ZDC is better than this tournament. Better organization, better admins, and no specific servers, just pick NJ, UK GV, FR GV, what ever you want to play on and do your matches.

Promoting another tournament like that... Just... WOW.
When some servermakers have been contacted when a tournament has been created, they're having at least one thing: constant support and quality for players, thing that any "what ever you want" server won't do.
So, I'll make it "WOW" too: my servers have been created only for competition purposes for players, having constant support and suggestions from players. Quality over Quantity. Guess that's why BaseQ is getting more and more popular when doing TDM/Duel in Europe rather than GV ones.

About organization however, I cannot agree more, it's a mess. Guess next time, Chr0nique'd better talk to me and some veterans of tournament organisation to at least get some advices, DMFLAGS and so on, having at least a correct server with default settings. Hence that suggestion that could be helpful for most competitions:

Code: Select all

(most important) making a cvar called sv_force_competition [0/1/2] that would automatically do that whatever the settings is done:
		1) Disable unwilling elements server-side that can give advantages for the client in PvP (medals; taunts; flag above a player on CTF)
		2) Force game settings to be exactly the same whatever the server (original Doom 2 behaviour, with force respawn on)
		3) Make some cvar_verifications on the client (forcing some settings on a specific value to give equality to all players --> cl_skins, some gl_ / r_ settings that could give an advantage over a client )
		4) (Unsure) block specific commands ('wait' ;  does turn_180 exist on Zand?)

0: Off
1: OldSchool Settings
2: NewSchool Settings

Learn to accept zandronum instead of wanting to have zdaemon under a different name. It might be the standard for all of you who migrated here but you're forgetting a big part of the player base that started and grew on zandro. All these compat flags and stuff just to make it behave like a port it's not.
And i'm not talking about the heavy modded stuff. I like DM/TDM/CTF with zandro flags and handling. I don't know if i'm the only one who feels that way though.

Great, another "This is Zandronum not Zdaemon" argument!

I accept Zandronum as a NewSchool port, that's not the problem :)
I simply don't accept the fact that most features are half-done (and looking to other games I've seen/helped using other engines aren't THAT messy as Zandro or even Zdaemon). Just look at the desync of the bullets and the puffs! Do you accept such a problem while playing TDM/CTF/1o1 , seeing none of your bullets were on the target, but that the target managed to be dead somehow?

The only thing Zdaemon does what Zandon't is the flexibility and completely customisable values for different maps that could help servermakers (NO, ACS IS strictly NOT A SOLUTION), and client-side elements favorable for competition (force- enemy/friend colors, easier-to-read HUD/Scoreboard).
I know most of Zandronum's players' are extremely casual playing heavy modded servers, but still, people like you and me like competition, and seeing that there is nothing suitable for this or even for visibility purposes (please try to see something on a 1080p monitor, I dare you) isn't that great.