Resource legality.

[Reaku]

I've been having some discussion and looking to figure out, what is everyone's preferences as to what is legal to use in a texture pack, and otherwise for Doom?
Obviously resources from other games that really don't have much to do with Doom itself can be viewed as illegal, however, there is the problem that resources from squeals of the game can be seen as illegal to use.
So, I guess I'm really asking here, what is everyone's stance and view on this subject?
Side note, if this is in the wrong thread, please move it, I wasn't sure where else to place this. Thank you.

[ibm5155]

Well, I really think it's bad to steal/rip other works from others guys with not even giving some credits, like on cursed maze I asked each texture maker for permition to use it on it (and yeah, I emailed like 10 people)...

You can't release a game using doom textures (only if you give some money to bethesda xD),
There're many mods out here with alot of "new" textures, like from quake 2 and others games, and it'll not happen nothing to them (I think 20% of the guys here can make a texture and just 1% can make descent textures [I know how to make, but I don't work with it and they're too simple D:])...

What I would do, if I'm going to use quake 2 textures it's ok (for a mod), I use it and I put the texture artists and quake 2 creators on credits, I think you'll not need more than that, but, there're some paied textures around it, this ones I think you may have problem if you use it and the texture creator discover that (a rare case but we never know if he plays doom xD).

I think you can use free textures around the internet (like cgtextures), because it'll make a wad more unique, showing that the modder wasn't lazy and just ripped other games texture and he wanted something different from the others mods...

[Balrog]

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

[Ænima]

Regarding other games ... Honestly it's not a big deal. Do you have any idea how many mods use sprite/audio rips from commercial games? Like, all of them. Yet you don't see Infinity Ward busting down Voltlock's door for creating RGA2. I don't know if that sort of thing is "legal" or not, but it's not like you're making money off of it and honestly it's not hurting anything if you rip stuff from other games as long as you give credit (duh).


Now, when it comes to resources from other Doom mods ... In any case, you should always get permission from the author to use their stuff (unless they specify in the README that you can do whatever you want), and always credit them. Even if it's just the Realm667 stuff and everyone knows that that's where it came from, you should still specify that in your mod's credits.

[Reaku]

Well, I really think it's bad to steal/rip other works from others guys with not even giving some credits, like on cursed maze I asked each texture maker for permition to use it on it (and yeah, I emailed like 10 people)...

You can't release a game using doom textures (only if you give some money to bethesda xD),
There're many mods out here with alot of "new" textures, like from quake 2 and others games, and it'll not happen nothing to them (I think 20% of the guys here can make a texture and just 1% can make descent textures [I know how to make, but I don't work with it and they're too simple D:])...

What I would do, if I'm going to use quake 2 textures it's ok (for a mod), I use it and I put the texture artists and quake 2 creators on credits, I think you'll not need more than that, but, there're some paied textures around it, this ones I think you may have problem if you use it and the texture creator discover that (a rare case but we never know if he plays doom xD).

I think you can use free textures around the internet (like cgtextures), because it'll make a wad more unique, showing that the modder wasn't lazy and just ripped other games texture and he wanted something different from the others mods...

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

It's not like I wouldn't give credit as to where I got the textures in the first place, like saying if I modified them in some way to get a result that I'd want, and selling a texture pack would just be plain silly, though people have done worse, It mostly follows given the proper credit of where everything was taken, along with telling what any modified textures were (beyond the obvious) would it still be classified as acceptable and not going against any legal bounds? Common sense says I'm fine, but that's never stopped rules.

[Ænima]

It's not like I wouldn't give credit as to where I got the textures in the first place, like saying if I modified them in some way to get a result that I'd want, and selling a texture pack would just be plain silly, though people have done worse, It mostly follows given the proper credit of where everything was taken, along with telling what any modified textures were (beyond the obvious) would it still be classified as acceptable and not going against any legal bounds? Common sense says I'm fine, but that's never stopped rules.

You're fine. Nobody's ever gotten sued or banned for violating a wad README's copyright/permissions section. Chastised, yes. But as long as you don't make a blatant and unapologetic ripfest of a mod that doesn't have proper credits, you'll be alright.

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

This might land you in trouble because sometimes the author himself doesn't include a proper credits file or README. It never hurts to just ask.

Plus, let's say you ripped a resource from a mod which was already a ripfest, like FutureWar. Let's say the original creator of that resource has no knowledge of this. If he sees his resource in your mod, he might get pissed because he'll think that you stole it, even if you weren't aware of it.


tl;dr Documentation is a good thing.

[Reaku]

It's not like I wouldn't give credit as to where I got the textures in the first place, like saying if I modified them in some way to get a result that I'd want, and selling a texture pack would just be plain silly, though people have done worse, It mostly follows given the proper credit of where everything was taken, along with telling what any modified textures were (beyond the obvious) would it still be classified as acceptable and not going against any legal bounds? Common sense says I'm fine, but that's never stopped rules.

You're fine. Nobody's ever gotten sued or banned for violating a wad README's copyright/permissions section. Chastised, yes. But as long as you don't make a blatant and unapologetic ripfest of a mod that doesn't have proper credits, you'll be alright.

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

This might land you in trouble because sometimes the author himself doesn't include a proper credits file or README. It never hurts to just ask.

Plus, let's say you ripped a resource from a mod which was already a ripfest, like FutureWar. Let's say the original creator of that resource has no knowledge of this. If he sees his resource in your mod, he might get pissed because he'll think that you stole it, even if you weren't aware of it.


tl;dr Documentation is a good thing.

I'm only taking out of the official Doom wads. Doom, Doom2, and Plutonia (Don't really want anything out of TNT), and of the things I'm taking, it's only patches and flats that can either be reused, modified, or completely re-purposed to make another texture entirely.

[infurnus]

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

This is patently false. I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious.

In the event you are serious: No, do not steal others work.

There is also an alternative to stealing, it's called fair use. Basically if you try to sanely manage and credit the material you use from others, you can basically make a mash-up style project as the end result, which isn't de facto breaking the law.

Another issue, is to stop and think, "Why do I need to take this?"
Is it because you are too busy to work on that sound or gun graphic? Or is it because you are simply too lazy? Are you ripping sprites left and right from 10 different games, or are you trying your best to get a consistent theme using a select few that you might touch up and make match the look you are going for?

There are still debates about the legality of remixes, mash-ups, and re-appropriation of select materials from one project/movie/song/etc into another project/movie/song/etc, but as long as you make it clear what your intentions are, and do your best to credit the sources you use (pro-tip: credit all your sources), then you are safer than just stealing out of laziness without putting much thought into it.

EDIT: Usually you want to adhere to the legal info in other mods due to the closeness of the community. You don't want to step on anyone else's toes. If anything, don't copy a copy, and get your resources from where they got theirs. Use common sense.

---

EDIT 2:

I'm only taking out of the official Doom wads. Doom, Doom2, and Plutonia (Don't really want anything out of TNT), and of the things I'm taking, it's only patches and flats that can either be reused, modified, or completely re-purposed to make another texture entirely.

You should use Freedoom as a resource for texture editing. That would avoid any legal cobwebs altogether.

[Reaku]

I'm only taking out of the official Doom wads. Doom, Doom2, and Plutonia (Don't really want anything out of TNT), and of the things I'm taking, it's only patches and flats that can either be reused, modified, or completely re-purposed to make another texture entirely.

You should use Freedoom as a resource for texture editing. That would avoid any legal cobwebs altogether.

I've looked through Freedoom, and though I know it's without legal bounds, it didn't have the textures I needed, such as walls or floors weren't the right "style" to use, best way I can put that. What I mean is, I'm trying to keep the gritty feel of doom, that's why I'm using Doom textures for modification, Freedoom may also have this feel to it as well, but it's just that the textures just felt a little softer in some ways, and others just didn't fit what I was trying to do.
Most of what I've been doing is looking through other texture packs to get ideas, then learning how to make the textures I want by using the official textures provided in Doom, Doom2, ect. That has gotten me some pleasing results, and taught me a lot in that regard as well.

[Ænima]

I've looked through Freedoom, and though I know it's without legal bounds, it didn't have the textures I needed, such as walls or floors weren't the right "style" to use, best way I can put that. What I mean is, I'm trying to keep the gritty feel of doom, that's why I'm using Doom textures for modification, Freedoom may also have this feel to it as well, but it's just that the textures just felt a little softer in some ways, and others just didn't fit what I was trying to do.
Most of what I've been doing is looking through other texture packs to get ideas, then learning how to make the textures I want by using the official textures provided in Doom, Doom2, ect. That has gotten me some pleasing results, and taught me a lot in that regard as well.

Just go ahead and use Doom2 textures as a base. That's what literally everyone else does (including 80% of the Skulltag textures). IIRC, you are allowed to use Doom/Doom2 resources as long as you change them in some way, or as long as they still require Doom/Doom2 to run (in other words, you can't merge your whole wad with Doom2 like some nubs do).

[Catastrophe]

Meh it's just a 1993 game that only 500 or so people play, IMO nobody really gives a fuck. But if I take a resource I try to credit the source if I know where it's from.

[Reaku]

Just go ahead and use Doom2 textures as a base. That's what literally everyone else does (including 80% of the Skulltag textures). IIRC, you are allowed to use Doom/Doom2 resources as long as you change them in some way, or as long as they still require Doom/Doom2 to run (in other words, you can't merge your whole wad with Doom2 like some nubs do).

There are some textures from the original wads that I included, but that's because they have a use and were not present in Doom2 itself, so I moved them in, saying where I got them from, other textures were redefined as the patch existed, but the texture itself didn't. So, it's not every single texture, it's just what would be useful that Doom2 doesn't have, since the pack is more focused for Doom2, yet I have it where it can be used with the other Iwads by keeping the textures the same name as they should be from where they came.

[Balrog]

Stealing + credit = permission. (Unless the author specifically says otherwise, of course.)

In the event you are serious: No, do not steal others work.

There is also an alternative to stealing, it's called fair use. Basically if you try to sanely manage and credit the material you use from others, you can basically make a mash-up style project as the end result, which isn't de facto breaking the law.

Another issue, is to stop and think, "Why do I need to take this?"
Is it because you are too busy to work on that sound or gun graphic? Or is it because you are simply too lazy? Are you ripping sprites left and right from 10 different games, or are you trying your best to get a consistent theme using a select few that you might touch up and make match the look you are going for?

There are still debates about the legality of remixes, mash-ups, and re-appropriation of select materials from one project/movie/song/etc into another project/movie/song/etc, but as long as you make it clear what your intentions are, and do your best to credit the sources you use (pro-tip: credit all your sources), then you are safer than just stealing out of laziness without putting much thought into it.

EDIT: Usually you want to adhere to the legal info in other mods due to the closeness of the community. You don't want to step on anyone else's toes. If anything, don't copy a copy, and get your resources from where they got theirs. Use common sense.

All that is what I mean implicitly when I say "stealing + credit = permission", at least with regard to Doom mods taking resources from other Doom mods. If you snag something from a movie or popular song or whatever then of course you're going to get your ass sued off when the creator notices. Of course you should try to avoid ripping stuff if you can help it and make sure that your resources are at least somewhat synergistic. Of course you should pay attention to legal info and use common sense.

[one_Two]

Pretty sure if you aren't making money from it you can "legally" do what you want (in relation to texture usage).

[Zap610]

Pretty sure if you aren't making money from it you can "legally" do what you want (in relation to texture usage).

If people say not to use their work then no, you can't. Will FBI agents bust down your door to arrest you? Of course not. But it's being a dick in general and the thread would definitely get nuked.

[infurnus]

Just to clarify: When Doom officially became open source, I remember there was a clause made that you can reuse Doom's resources in free/non-commercial PWADs

Knowing that, it is safe to assume that this includes textures, and also making new enemies based on the pre-existing ones, ranging from recoloring them, to tracing over the graphics to re-draw a different or sometimes entirely new look (Vader and Eriance have done this to great effect, for example)

People have extended this to the other Doom engine games, and kept the resource usage within engines based on Doom's open source code. I guess they did so under fair use, or an honor system of sorts.

[Reaku]

Just to clarify: When Doom officially became open source, I remember there was a clause made that you can reuse Doom's resources in free/non-commercial PWADs

Knowing that, it is safe to assume that this includes textures, and also making new enemies based on the pre-existing ones, ranging from recoloring them, to tracing over the graphics to re-draw a different or sometimes entirely new look (Vader and Eriance have done this to great effect, for example)

People have extended this to the other Doom engine games, and kept the resource usage within engines based on Doom's open source code. I guess they did so under fair use, or an honor system of sorts.

That's all I needed to know, and it's reassuring, which means I can go back to work on what I'm doing without much worry.

[Cruduxy]

With everyone else using HD and 3D.. Don't really think they'll bother hunting down sprite users on an ancient game that won't be stealing market from their titles.

[ibm5155]

So if you take a wad (like who dun it), modify it, you'll have the same thing as you get a texture and modify it, you can't say you did who dun it, but you can say that you modify who dun it and give the original authors credits

Just as example http://www.indiedb.com/games/uni this is bad, why? he used doom2.iwad (containing textures, sprites,sounds,maps,...) So he "did" a game, but, He's also sharing a paid game as a free game (just like if you share doom2 on a download website...), It wouldn't be bad if it didn't included the full doom2 iwad on it or he could have used freedoom as a base, just like I did with cursed maze...

[mr fiat]

Another issue, is to stop and think, "Why do I need to take this?"
Is it because you are too busy to work on that sound or gun graphic? Or is it because you are simply too lazy? Are you ripping sprites left and right from 10 different games, or are you trying your best to get a consistent theme using a select few that you might touch up and make match the look you are going for?

i think when it comes to sounds it can be a bit difficult especially gunshots or explosions for obvious reasons.