Random Damage and Competitive play: Why they don't mix

[Theshooter7]

First off, I'll say that I'm not trolling and am simply stating my point of view on the matter.

While competitive play may or may not be one of Zandronum's goals, there is no doubt that people will play CTF and the like on it. I'm not one who plays competitive Doom very often (used to play priv in a fairly consistent fashion about a year or so ago), but from an analytical perspective, I'll say it bluntly:

Competitive Doom cannot possibly be competitive in a fair, leveled manner that actually shows the full skill and/or talent of players against one another

Why? Well, the one, immense reason, as in the title:

Random Damage - Every weapon in Doom has a randomized damage value (1d8 * Damage for projectiles, 1d4 * Damage for hitscans), meaning that there is absolutely no consistency in how much you hurt your opponent. Sometimes you can do a lot of damage, sometimes you can do minimal. Granted, some weapons, such as the BFG or Rocket Launcher, tend to do enough damage outright that the randomness has little factor in whether a player survives a hit or not, but for other weapons like the SSG or Chaingun, random damage is a huge thing, and can force it so that the player with better aim or the player who shot and hit first doesn't always win. In any other competitive scene of almost any other game, this would be a big problem. While I know it's comparatively a completely different game, ANY competitive-level match in Team Fortress 2 uses a mod/server setting/config that disables random damage entirely, giving all the weapons a fixed damage value. Why? Because then players who can aim better, shoot faster, and dodge smoother will come out on top (though of course TF2 has the teamplay factor but Doom's CTF can be the filler for that).

So what might be a solution? Well, someone could make a patch mod that forces all the weapons to have fixed damage values, instead of the silly randomness. Of course, not all source ports support DECORATE and the like, but it would at least be a solution for SkullTag/Zandronum.

What say the competitive folks? What are your opinions on this (a patch mod and random damage in general) and/or any other ideas about competitive Doom?
(Please keep it peaceful; I'm merely curious as this was a thought I've constantly had whenever someone mentioned competitive Doom or priv and so I feel putting the idea out there might get some reasonable talk about it)

[Frits]

I'd like this. The only trouble for this would be to determine the base damage of a gun.

[Synert]

I've never had too much of a problem with this myself, but I do think it's a really nice idea. On more than one occasion I've been fragged where I should have easily won because of this.

I'd like this. The only trouble for this would be to determine the base damage of a gun.

Using the average damage would probably work.

[Ivan]

To sum the original post up with one value : FBF_NORANDOM

[Theshooter7]

To sum the original post up with one value : FBF_NORANDOM

Pretty much. :P Although as others have mentioned, values would probably need adjusting.

[Ivan]

To sum the original post up with one value : FBF_NORANDOM

Pretty much. :P Although as others have mentioned, values would probably need adjusting.

I've already been toying around with it, as can bee seen from the oldssg.wad in CTF and duels servers in GV. I would try to re arrange the damage but the random multiplier is killing it. (Although raising the bottom cap to 125 or 150 wouldn't hurt I think, if that flag ever finds it's way into Zandronum)

[Hypnotoad]

I'm pretty sure that statistically speaking, if the randon number generator is a pure stochastic process, a more skilled player has a higher chance of winning, assuming the variance of the process isn't too large.

[Ivan]

Well of course a higher skilled player has a higher chance of winning, but in most cases, even a single pellet missed can really fuck you up :/ The best comparison is, of course, Zdaemon (lol) where even if you miss like 5-6 pellets, you can still get a frag in one shot. Reducing the spread was a step towards the better, but it can be so much more than just lesser spread. The only obstacle between that and our goal is FBF_NORANDOM :(

[Zakken]

No, thanks. Luck is also part of competition!

[Marcaek]

^This. Taking risks and dealing with the outcome is a learned skill.

[Dynamo]

No, thanks. Luck is also part of competition!

Even though I'm not competitive I have to agree here. A little randomness actually makes games less predictable and more interesting in my point of view, and not just in doom.

[Disguise]

I've never had too much of a problem with this myself, but I do think it's a really nice idea. On more than one occasion I've been fragged where I should have easily won because of this.

We can agree on that. Anyway, this could be useful. It could work as a dmflag? Not like the DECORATE one is bad.

[Qent]

Randomness makes it more fun. And one of your skills is dealing with chance.

(And it's x*1d3 for hitscans.)

[one_Two]

I am aware of the randomness, but I don't notice it much in game, my usual tactics are get the SSG and get close, therefore reducing the spread, so the randomness in that aspect can be tamed with skill. (not my skill however).

[Ivan]

Oh yeah.

Let's also disable the aim randomness of the chaingun on continuous fire, let's also disable the spread of pellets of SG and SSG because it will give you randomness of the damage. Let's disable the ramdoness the lag causes on my enemy's position and oh, and making the chainsaw height infinite so I will always hit my enemies wherever they are!

You kinda missed the point...

It's quite frustrating how the enemy can sometimes survive a shot that should pretty much have spelled the doom for them, we're talking about competitive scene here not some public ctf game :/

[legion]

of course the damages are random, such is the nature of doom.

for example, if you've ever played d2m1 as a duel map you will know it's all about chance and luck.

I will say this though, the skulltag weapons DO seem to already have a consistent damage track as is, I wouldn't try to edit it in any way

[Ruin]

I'm pretty content with how things are as-is. Why fix what ain't broke?

[GhostlyDeath]

Oh yeah.

Let's also disable the aim randomness of the chaingun on continuous fire, let's also disable the spread of pellets of SG and SSG because it will give you randomness of the damage. Let's disable the ramdoness the lag causes on my enemy's position and oh, and making the chainsaw height infinite so I will always hit my enemies wherever they are!

You kinda missed the point...

It's quite frustrating how the enemy can sometimes survive a shot that should pretty much have spelled the doom for them, we're talking about competitive scene here not some public ctf game :/

If they survived an SSG shot that was nicely aimed (most of the pellets hit) and they didn't die, these are the most likely considerations:
* They picked up a soulsphere or other health giving item.
* They have armor on (Green taking 1/3 of the damage and Blue taking 1/2)
* You didn't actually hit them.

[Theshooter7]

I can see that people put up with it, but my view is that "luck" should not be a factor in determining who is better.

It would be kind of neat if there was a server option that simply doubled the base damage and then left it fixed (no randomness). Not sure if double base damage would be proper but it's solid at least.

[EDIT]

If they survived an SSG shot that was nicely aimed (most of the pellets hit) and they didn't die, these are the most likely considerations:
* They picked up a soulsphere or other health giving item.
* They have armor on (Green taking 1/3 of the damage and Blue taking 1/2)
* You didn't actually hit them.

Yes, but what about another example: The Chaingun(!!!). Say two opponents, 100 health, no armor, start sniping at each other at roughly the same time, timing their tapped shots carefully to keep it accurate yet shooting as fast as possible. Do you think the guy who shot first would win? That may not be the case with random damage, as the other guy could get the full 3x or 4x multiplier each shot and this guy could be getting 1x or 2x. If you ask me, that's something that probably should not happen.

Oh yeah.

Let's also disable the aim randomness of the chaingun on continuous fire, let's also disable the spread of pellets of SG and SSG because it will give you randomness of the damage. Let's disable the ramdoness the lag causes on my enemy's position and oh, and making the chainsaw height infinite so I will always hit my enemies wherever they are!

There is a difference between a leveled playing field and actual game balance. The examples you've mentioned (aside from the lag and Chainsaw) are examples of breaking game balance. As for the Chainsaw height, have you played Vanilla Doom?

[Tribeam]

You can do all this no randomness stuff in ZDoom, in Zandronum is some cases

For Example:
replace
PISG B 6 A_FirePistol

with
PISG B 0 A_FireBullets (5.6, 0, 1, 5, "BulletPuff", FBF_NORANDOM)
PISG B 0 A_PlaySound("weapons/pistol", CHAN_WEAPON)
PISG B 6 A_GunFlash

in the pistol, and no more randomness, however Zandronum doesn't support this :/

You can however disable the random damage of projectiles in Zandronum
with Damage (10). This will limit the damage to always be 10

If Zandronum supported the FBF_NORANDOM you could make a patch wad/pk3 and that'll be your server option.

Edit: I see this was already mentioned, completely missed it lol
Derp