ZDaemon has opted an server-side nickname authentication system

[Tenchu]

Evaluating anything based on IP address isn't gonna work due to IP addresses not being static. Maybe if we wait ~10 years for IPv6...

If ISPs end up forcing customers to use a static IPv6 this is disastrous for online privacy. So you better hope that we don't end up in this situation...

With IPv6 the amount of allocatable IPs will be virtually infinite, why would they force customers to stick to a single IP? Even now with IPv4 most cable ISPs assign new IPs all the time. Unless of course the governments step in and try to regulate the assignment of IPs for law enforcement reasons. Now that is believable (and scary).

[Torr Samaho]

With IPv6 the amount of allocatable IPs will be virtually infinite, why would they force customers to stick to a single IP?

If they force each device (not customer) to stick to a single IP forever (which they can because there are enough IPs for all devices), devices (and customers with them) can be tracked perfectly. And you can bet that many companies want perfect trackability of customers. That's how targeted advertisement work.

[Tenchu]

With IPv6 the amount of allocatable IPs will be virtually infinite, why would they force customers to stick to a single IP?

If they force each device (not customer) to stick to a single IP forever (which they can because there are enough IPs for all devices), devices (and customers with them) can be tracked perfectly. And you can bet that many companies want perfect trackability of customers. That's how targeted advertisement work.

But how can they force a single IP to a device forever? Just like with MAC addresses, I'm sure there will be ways to change the IP address.

One of my main concerns in dealing with IPv6 is handling bans. I'm sure even if they do start assigning IPs to every Internet-connected device, there's absolutely going to be ways to change it, and IP banning will be effectively rendered useless. The amount of possible IPs under IPv6 is represented by a number with enough zero's to stretch this page on a 1080p display. If a user can change their IP relatively easily; any sort of website, game community, web server, etc, will be forced to utilize some sort of account-based system to handle bans.

It'll be interesting to see how IPv6 allocation unfolds in the coming years.

[Torr Samaho]

But how can they force a single IP to a device forever? Just like with MAC addresses, I'm sure there will be ways to change the IP address.

If the ISPs wanted they could at least easily tie your router's IP to the account the router uses to connect to the ISP. And from the top of my head I don't see anything you could do about this (other than paying for multiple accounts)... How exactly IPs behind the router are assigned using IPv6 is a different issue. Anyway, this is derailing the thread. My intention was just to point out that IPv6 is not the solution for the issue this thread is about and possibly beings new privacy challenges.

[Neewbie]

I disagree regardless, over half of those problems can be solved by pressing F8 and ignoring or going to some other place where you can change your nickname 100 times. In fact, some of those things listed are the reasons priv and scrim servers always have problems with aliasers.

Yup i had to alias because of trolls and if you ingnore them they WILL troll you ingame.. Ignoring a problem is not solving it.

[Marcaek]

^There's an actual "ignore feature" that allows you to mute specific players, you know.

[Neewbie]

^There's an actual "ignore feature" that allows you to mute specific players, you know.

Yup i had to alias because of trolls and if you ingnore them they WILL troll you ingame.. Ignoring a problem is not solving it.

[katZune]

^There's an actual "ignore feature" that allows you to mute specific players, you know.

Yup i had to alias because of trolls and if you ingnore them they WILL troll you ingame.. Ignoring a problem is not solving it.

use kick or call an admin

[Medicris]

Yup i had to alias because of trolls and if you ingnore them they WILL troll you ingame.. Ignoring a problem is not solving it.

Of course it isn't. Take action and alert an admin. Ignoring a problem (in this case, a harassing player) is not solving it. Solve it by getting the harasser removed from the game.

[Camo Yoshi]

What else to expect from a port called ZDaemon? Sell your souls!

lol. Though it's referring to the fact it's a process that can be run on *nix.

My vote is no on this. A authentication system might be practical for say, a private server but for a public one there's not much point.

[Metal]

This is where I believe it becomes a vicious circle. You CAN ignore individual players, but they can come back with a different nick and continue. Or follow you to another server. By this time you can go alert an admin, but not a whole lot of server admins really deal with "trolling" and nonsense like that. And if they do, there's a good chance that admins aren't around when the problem arises, and you're stuck back in square one with trying to ignore them. And sometimes there's more than just the one person, sometimes it's multiple people. It really depends on the server and the server admin, I guess. But I don't think it's fair to let idiots like this roam servers in the first place. (See some "Troll" bans on the master server list).

There's a difference between "Good" aliases and bad. And this is one of the bigger dilemmas about it all.

[AlexMax]

based on their IP address

Evaluating anything based on IP address isn't gonna work due to IP addresses not being static. Maybe if we wait ~10 years for IPv6...

Right, and Hypothetical Me can create 20 different accounts to harass Hypothetical You with if I wanted. So an IP-based system is just as imperfect and doesn't require anywhere near the same amount of infrastructure.

Granted, I've always thought an optional login system that is not tied to nicknames is a good idea, but if trying to nail low-effort aliasers is what you're after, the IP-tracking solution is just as good.

[Jenova]

based on their IP address

Evaluating anything based on IP address isn't gonna work due to IP addresses not being static. Maybe if we wait ~10 years for IPv6...

Right, and Hypothetical Me can create 20 different accounts to harass Hypothetical You with if I wanted. So an IP-based system is just as imperfect and doesn't require anywhere near the same amount of infrastructure.

Granted, I've always thought an optional login system that is not tied to nicknames is a good idea, but if trying to nail low-effort aliasers is what you're after, the IP-tracking solution is just as good.

They actually ban you if you create too many accounts under the same IP address.

[cybershark]

Ech, I haven't bothered to play Ztantrum yet, and I'm not even playing ZD at the moment, but seeing this thread made me feel like registering here just to put a few dickheads straight about a few things.

Well then you'll have to create a new user and and waste more resource and data because of that. In fact, you can get banned for "creating too many usernames/wasting resources.*" and the ZDaemon administration team will not care who you are or why you did it.

They actually ban you if you create too many accounts under the same IP address.

Or, to put it the way it actually is:
You will be auto-banned only should you try to create too many new accounts in one day.
(And that particular countermeasure is only in effect due to previous attacks on ZD.)

No words would fit an insult to ZDaemon while keeping it descent on the forums: They ... promote a dead dog in a skip like it's the grail of Doom, while in essence it's an outdated ... development limiting Zdoom rip that nobody should ever touch or see without a torch and pitchfork.

If no words would fit, then perhaps no words you should use?

As for the the rest? Well, to my mind, if you want to keep a port as Doom-orientated, then of course you'd limit the modability of it! Otherwise you end up with shit like Megaman, AoW, GvH, which has fuck-all to do with Doom. So yeah, while Choc Doom is perhaps the "Holy Grail of Doom", then Odamex, Zdaemon and Zdurumdurum follow behind it - in precisely that order.
As someone who is continually modding the crap out of ZD, it already scares me with what it can do.

I would argue it's a stellar judgement of my AV that I was better off without ZDaemon.

Funny, as it seems I heard that Zbumbum was also giving people's AVs the heebie-jeebies? Obviously, any such application that needs to connect to teh internets is teh devilz work!

For me personally the reason why I alias is because what AlexMax has said(but it got split) that sometimes our performances doesn't need to be tied to our real names. My second reason is when people are bothering you for every little thing and lastly, sometimes I will to be a different person so I can be funny. Again, aliasing is a double edged sword.... it stops from people giving you drama; however, it creates chances for people to do something that's in bad intentions.

Anybody knows me knows I'm no stranger to "alternate nicks" (as I like to call them) - and can agree with all your reasons for using such - but I just don't see any such intentions behind this.

Again, ZDaemon is stepping more closer to ultimately control it's commuinty... just look at the IRC server where it can only be accessible via ZRC, the forums are admin-approved and the mandatory login/auth system. There's no freedom, so much control for a 1990's game.

You want a 1990s game? Go play Doom2.exe LAN then. Everything else out there that's currently usable is strictly 21st century.

Ultimate control... nazi regime... totalitarian repressive admins...
blah
blah
blah

IRC is bound to a custom client to prevent execution of scripts.
Forum registration prevents spambots.
Login we already covered.

But 'No freedom'? Just lol.

Even ZD players are crying on their forums already.

Not really. I got curious earlier about how .09 would work with a non-authenticated IDE game launch, and found that it didn't.
While the in-game msg I received was far from helpful, a very quick google search found me the single forum thread which explains the entire issue.

Besides, I don't think the nick restriction over on ZD was done due to problems with impersonation - there was none. It was planned long long ago and is rather for BigBrothering the port...

No, it was simply planned long ago, to the best of my knowledge. The Login screen was always meant to be there for a reason, and now? It finally is.

I agree with Ten here. In fact both GV and NJ invented some kind of whitelist/account/authentication system already. But enforcing such thing on all, public servers would be ridiculous.

What you guys seem to be implying is that public servers are undeserving of ANY kind of protection?

[BigDumbMan]

This registration thing always pisses me off because I'm a lazy and careless Doom player. I guess that many can identify with me on this one. No one ever has an intention to steal my nickname. There is this good ole' file-sharing network called SoulSeek. It's mandatory to use some kind of password to protect your name. I register whenever I reinstall the system (and the SoulSeek program of course). It's like every 2 years. By that time I have forgotten the password and have to use a different variation of my nick. There is no way I'll be ever able to use the old one(s). That situation frustrating (I know it can be solved using pen and paper or backing up application settings but fuck it). I've never had a need for password protection in Skulltag/Zandronum. If master server's admins feel there is a need for it, I think it should be optional, like in IRC.

[legion]

in my experience with zdaemon, they do not value your opinion or freedom whatsoever. there are many people who are banned because of drama between the lead dev (kilgore) and themselves. several people have been completely masterbanned for chatting in #zdplayers, and if you even mention something like "IDL" then you will get removed forever. I remember one time I had a civil argument with kilgore in IRC and I ended up being banned for like a year from zdirc because of it. do you honestly expect these people to value your freedom or your input at all? hell, there is an entire twitter dedicated to the attitude and priceless quotes from the beloved kilgore.

that being said, this doesn't sound like half a bad idea, its just I dont think there is much benevolence behind it. kilgore and other devs have proven that they would rather concentrate on babysitting the port from every single harsh word and whatever else, which is why I dont find much love coming from this. preventing impersonation? highly unlikely, unless you reserve every single variant of your own nickname, but this is hardly worth the time or effort. preventing vulgar names/harsh language? I didn't realize this was my local church and not the internet

besides, aliasing and impersonation is something to be handled by server admins and only if it gets wildly out of hand should it be then handled by higher-ups. it sounds like there is either severe lack of server admins willing to watch over their own servers or severe lack of competent server admins.

is aliasing such a huge issue to force an authentication system for nicknames anyway? really?

[Reach Term]

Ech, I haven't bothered to play Ztantrum yet, and I'm not even playing ZD at the moment, but seeing this thread made me feel like registering here just to put a few dickheads straight about a few things.

Well then you'll have to create a new user and and waste more resource and data because of that. In fact, you can get banned for "creating too many usernames/wasting resources.*" and the ZDaemon administration team will not care who you are or why you did it.

They actually ban you if you create too many accounts under the same IP address.

Or, to put it the way it actually is:
You will be auto-banned only should you try to create too many new accounts in one day.
(And that particular countermeasure is only in effect due to previous attacks on ZD.)

For me personally the reason why I alias is because what AlexMax has said(but it got split) that sometimes our performances doesn't need to be tied to our real names. My second reason is when people are bothering you for every little thing and lastly, sometimes I will to be a different person so I can be funny. Again, aliasing is a double edged sword.... it stops from people giving you drama; however, it creates chances for people to do something that's in bad intentions.

Anybody knows me knows I'm no stranger to "alternate nicks" (as I like to call them) - and can agree with all your reasons for using such - but I just don't see any such intentions behind this.

Again, ZDaemon is stepping more closer to ultimately control it's commuinty... just look at the IRC server where it can only be accessible via ZRC, the forums are admin-approved and the mandatory login/auth system. There's no freedom, so much control for a 1990's game.

You want a 1990s game? Go play Doom2.exe LAN then. Everything else out there that's currently usable is strictly 21st century.

Ultimate control... nazi regime... totalitarian repressive admins...
blah
blah
blah

IRC is bound to a custom client to prevent execution of scripts.
Forum registration prevents spambots.
Login we already covered.

But 'No freedom'? Just lol.

1. I created 5 accounts in a week; got banned, when ask Kilgore... he rudely told me why and a person of me, who really really new at the time, why would have a reason to make that I was attacking the server. btw, that ban was a month long, you really wanted to set that tone?

2. It might be, it might be not. However I feel a lot of people can relate to that quote.


3.Scripts that can be easily be fix by bans, moderation, counterscripts and flood protections.
Spambots, I can understand, but having to tell Domains only to allow your name is an immensely absurdity in my books.
So the Login is to protect something that happen 7 years ago? Yeah, sorry to sound like a dick. I don't see people trolling these games like they used to.

Oh there is freedom, it's like the shock collar you put onto dogs. They can do whatever they want but once they get bad, BAM!

This is an inside joke.

[AlexMax]

As for the the rest? Well, to my mind, if you want to keep a port as Doom-orientated, then of course you'd limit the modability of it! Otherwise you end up with shit like Megaman, AoW, GvH, which has fuck-all to do with Doom. So yeah, while Choc Doom is perhaps the "Holy Grail of Doom", then Odamex, Zdaemon and Zdurumdurum follow behind it - in precisely that order.

As someone who is continually modding the crap out of ZD, it already scares me with what it can do.

Try modifying the source. Things get really fun when you have control over literally everything. Doom modders are already infatuated with ZDoom because it makes easy things easy, so you're free to implement your own Doomy additions however you like. And it's great to not have to hack around DECORATE and DEHSUPP.

...oh, wait. :(

Anybody knows me knows I'm no stranger to "alternate nicks" (as I like to call them) - and can agree with all your reasons for using such - but I just don't see any such intentions behind this.

My problem with that approach is that that accounts are tied to nicknames and are forever. If you just want to make some random throwaway name just so you don't get bothered, that's in the central login database for good.

What exactly is wrong with allowing anonymous access but making it stupidly obvious through a scoreboard badge or through a console command who is logged in as who and who is just aliasing?

Ultimate control... nazi regime... totalitarian repressive admins...

The "nazi" stuff is overblown, but let's be real, Kilgore has a well known history of throwing temper tantrums and being offended over nothing. He may be nice to you now (or maybe he isn't), but how long do you think that will last? Life is too short to concern yourself with tiptoeing around those kinds of people.

The fact that he has any sort of meaningful control over ZDaemon is to its disadvantage and has created totally unnecessary rifts in the multiplayer community. His actions are the reason why the IDL existed as its own community apart from ZDaemon, and why Odamex even exists at all.

IRC is bound to a custom client to prevent execution of scripts.

Serious question. Are your #zdplayers ops really that out-to-lunch that you need the presumed security of a client that doesn't support scripting? I've been around IRC a very very long time, and I think that annoying users are far more prevalent an issue on IRC channels in general than scripting (in fact the latter are far easier to automatically ban), and a custom IRC client doesn't really buy you anything there.

What you guys seem to be implying is that public servers are undeserving of ANY kind of protection?

Protection is nice. But enforced protection isn't protection, it's coercion.

[Metal]

Ech, I haven't bothered to play Ztantrum yet, and I'm not even playing ZD at the moment, but seeing this thread made me feel like registering here just to put a few dickheads straight about a few things.

The funny part about this, is if this were ZDaemon forums, your post would've been thrown into the never-returning abyss.

As for the the rest? Well, to my mind, if you want to keep a port as Doom-orientated, then of course you'd limit the modability of it! Otherwise you end up with shit like Megaman, AoW, GvH, which has fuck-all to do with Doom. So yeah, while Choc Doom is perhaps the "Holy Grail of Doom", then Odamex, Zdaemon and Zdurumdurum follow behind it - in precisely that order.
As someone who is continually modding the crap out of ZD, it already scares me with what it can do.

Oh! Are we talking about the same source port who implemented voice-chat, in-game advertisements, Radar, a respawn timer in CTF overtime, and some other retarded and irrelevant effects? Or are we talking about the port where people waited 6 years for this 1.09 release, only to be disappointed? Please, don't embarrass yourself. Also Zandronum allows people freedom to do what they choose with their own projects. Megaman flew great lengths because of this. Not counting that though, why don't we compare playerbase? It's changed quite drastically over the past couple of years because people became tired of ZDrama.

I find it very unsettling that you have come to register an account just to try and boost ZDaemons reputation, while trying to effectively insult THIS port at the same time. It's a little bit sad, and I feel kinda bad for you.

I'll admit, I still play ZDaemon because I've been playing it for a while, but ever since 1.09, I've almost completely lost interest. Especially in CTF. I'll hand it to you guys, you tried. Maybe next time you'll succeed in making that port thrive again, but it's doubtful.

[Torvald]

"I haven't played Zandronum yet......So here's my opinion on the port!"

Wat?