how would the league/doom change if audio on item pickups was turned off

[legion]

since literally everyone clamored for the old zdaemon settings, this is one of the last, if not the last, setting remaining that should be adjusted for the GDA servers, but is a relic of skulltag/zandronum's past

why is it still in? could it have something to do with the fact that it enables defenders to hear everything and giving them an advantage on a port that favors defensive play, and a majority of the players everyone considers dominant are defenders?

nah. couldn't be.

[Zakken]

Ideally speaking, since all ports are technically the same game, all players should be able to transition their skill set 1:1 across all ports. Of course, us players hold little power over the different technicalities of each port, but when it comes to what we can control, we should approximate all settings to an universal, agreed upon competitive standard for superior accessibility and integrity. The decision to use the WDL wad over the IDL wad is a reflection of these ideals to draw these different groups of the same competitive community closer together, for instance.

Vanilla Doom had silent pickups, so did ZDaemon and Odamex for as long as they have existed. Audible pickups personally never affected my play (except maybe one time when I was running), and I see no harm in turning silent pickups on in the GDA servers, so we'll apply that change as soon as we can. Thanks for bringing this issue to light.

[legion]

What does vanilla do? Why does it need to cater to zdaemon "standards" (bugs?)????? If you like zdaemon so much, uninstall zandro and play that instead, it's really that simple. "Zdaemon flags" were clamored for because people mistakenly thought they were vanilla. If Zan wants to be a viable "competitive" port, it should either build its own standard or draw on vanilla, not some broken-ass port that did what it wanted as it went along and continues to build off an outdated zdoom version.

nobody gives a shit about vanilla, nobody gives a shit about zdaemon, nobody gives a shit about outdated zdoom semantics.

im talking about how people cried for the classic zdaemon settings and so the rules have been standardized to the point where its basically all the settings (except this audio pickup issue) from the old zdaemon and odamex leagues. if they want true evenness across the settings, then this is one that should have been adjusted. frankly, it should have been adjusted anyway, since it gives defenders an advantage they didn't need.

[Combinebobnt]

I think any effect this would have would be very minor.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Turning it off will make it easier for runners because then the only sound cues left are weapons, pain, use/jump sound and teleport/spawn sounds. With this change defenders will have to rely on their sight and teammates more often since they won't be able to hear runners picking up items like in map20 or 29.

With that out of the way, did you lose a match or something? Usually people start barking about settings and the game whenever they lose. The sound settings haven't been brought up by 'several' people in the last few years at all. So who are you basing this off of again?

These sound settings have been played with on Zan for a long while now and I see no real point in changing it now. If you 2 are so keen on keeping things 'standard' between all ports and settings you have more than just sound to worry about. Don't forget to enforce GL settings while you're at it because there are players who abuse it for gain. You might as well do something about ZCC too since that has a lot of nice little features that can be used for an advantage compared to players who use the standard Zandro client.

[Galactus]

What are these advantages zcc has?

[Ru5tK1ng]

Extended indentifytarget info and different interpolated teleport handling & higher velocity actor lag handling. Possibly the latter doesn't matter much but the former can. If I'm mistaken about it, then I'll retract. However, although ZCC has been the woe of issues on the tracker, it's more an issue with custom clients in general. But there's no real way to stop that without making a fork honestly.

[Zakken]

With that out of the way, did you lose a match or something? Usually people start barking about settings and the game whenever they lose. The sound settings haven't been brought up by 'several' people in the last few years at all. So who are you basing this off of again?

Irrelevant of what motivated the guy to complain, or how many are complaining, a valid issue is a valid issue all the same, hence why it was addressed pronto.

If you 2 are so keen on keeping things 'standard' between all ports and settings you have more than just sound to worry about. Don't forget to enforce GL settings while you're at it because there are players who abuse it for gain.

I am one of the players who exploit these GL settings, and I can tell you that even with them turned off, I can simply work around it by turning the gamma way the heck up, which can't be forced by any flags (or ports for that matter), so I can see everything just fine anyway. In the end, enforcing them off affects practically nothing, really.

Does the ZCC still work with 3.1 alpha, by the way?

[Ru5tK1ng]

With that out of the way, did you lose a match or something? Usually people start barking about settings and the game whenever they lose. The sound settings haven't been brought up by 'several' people in the last few years at all. So who are you basing this off of again?

Irrelevant of what motivated the guy to complain, or how many are complaining, a valid issue is a valid issue all the same, hence why it was addressed pronto.

No, it's a non-issue that hasn't ever been a problem. Not when IDL was on zan or any of Dragon's leagues and not even in priv. The fact you just did it so simply and jumped the gun is quite telling.

If you 2 are so keen on keeping things 'standard' between all ports and settings you have more than just sound to worry about. Don't forget to enforce GL settings while you're at it because there are players who abuse it for gain.

I am one of the players who exploit these GL settings, and I can tell you that even with them turned off, I can simply work around it by turning the gamma way the heck up, which can't be forced by any flags (or ports for that matter), so I can see everything just fine anyway. In the end, enforcing them off affects practically nothing, really.

Pumping up your gamma to 6 is nothing like changing the ambient light setting. That's why sewers smell bad is broken as fuck without forcing default gl lighting. Don't forget the mouse Y pitch allowed in hardware renderer that stomps SW.

[Ivan]

I never realized items made global sound where you can hear these from wherever you are in the map regardless of distance. Hmm... New zandro features?

[Shane]

Thing is CTF isn't really "vanilla" even by ZDaemon standards with it showing up somewhat later on in its life span. And by this I mean there shouldn't exactly be a standard on a gamemode that specifically never had a beginning within the core game itself. I'm a crappy defense player and even though I don't exactly have the best sound I still use it pretty much all the time in order to remain relevant to teams. Doom should be looking forward a bit more rather than trying to force it to take some steps back by removing genuinely helpful features and additions.

After all no one fixed that jump in map26 (Status Idle) after Konar enforced his incredibly ill advised and dumb rule that no one should be able to make that jump, when you could do that in "classic" ZDaemon so why not lift the ban on such a ridiculous rule???

[Zakken]

No, it's a non-issue that hasn't ever been a problem. Not when IDL was on zan or any of Dragon's leagues and not even in priv. The fact you just did it so simply and jumped the gun is quite telling.

People are going to complain about this given setting being on or off either way. The best I can do is to stay faithful to the standard we have been sticking with since the inception of this tournament.

Pumping up your gamma to 6 is nothing like changing the ambient light setting. That's why sewers smell bad is broken as fuck without forcing default gl lighting.

That's one map, an old one that is most likely getting the cut from the 2018 WDL wad, out of 32. Dark lighting as a gameplay factor in any map (or in almost any modern multiplayer videogame, really) has long been made obsolete because of how many different ways you can brighten things up.

Don't forget the mouse Y pitch allowed in hardware renderer that stomps SW.

Three things:
1. I've only ever used that to my advantage on one map (MAP08);
2. That's a minimal leverage when it comes to shooting, made even more minuscule with autoaim. I'd hardly call that a "stomp";
3. Everybody is free to play on OGL as they wish, unless your PC is two decades old and can't even run it on compatibility mode, in which case, tough luck.

Doom should be looking forward a bit more rather than trying to force it to take some steps back by removing genuinely helpful features and additions.

I don't think you're using the correct definition of "genuinely helpful features" here. If you're referring to audible item pickups, that's a gameplay changer and nothing more. There is no such thing as regression when all we're trying to do is to make the in-game less fundamentally different from how it is in other established and tried-and-true competitive communities -- I'd argue the opposite, actually.

After all no one fixed that jump in map26 (Status Idle) after Konar enforced his incredibly ill advised and dumb rule that no one should be able to make that jump, when you could do that in "classic" ZDaemon so why not lift the ban on such a ridiculous rule???

I thought the only thing that changed was that the jump physics changed to those of older ZDoom? If you could get more indepth about how each port and each version handled things, I'd appreciate it.

[Catastrophe]

Extended indentifytarget info and different interpolated teleport handling & higher velocity actor lag handling. Possibly the latter doesn't matter much but the former can. If I'm mistaken about it, then I'll retract. However, although ZCC has been the woe of issues on the tracker, it's more an issue with custom clients in general. But there's no real way to stop that without making a fork honestly.

ZCC's advanced indentifytarget info features only work on allies, which ironically is closer to Zdaemon.

[jdagenet]

Extended indentifytarget info and different interpolated teleport handling & higher velocity actor lag handling. Possibly the latter doesn't matter much but the former can. If I'm mistaken about it, then I'll retract. However, although ZCC has been the woe of issues on the tracker, it's more an issue with custom clients in general. But there's no real way to stop that without making a fork honestly.

ZCC's advanced indentifytarget info features only work on allies, which ironically is closer to Zdaemon.

ZCC's identify target overwrote the server setting pre-3.0. I'm not sure if it's been changed since the 3.0 build of ZCC has been released but it's definitely an advantage over official Zan build users. I was also told that players using ZCC were able to see their opponent's HP, not sure how true that is since I don't use ZCC.

[Catastrophe]

ZCC's identify target overwrote the server setting pre-3.0. I'm not sure if it's been changed since the 3.0 build of ZCC has been released but it's definitely an advantage over official Zan build users. I was also told that players using ZCC were able to see their opponent's HP, not sure how true that is since I don't use ZCC.

...What are you talking about? ZCC -never- did that and you claim you haven't even used it yourself, so what's the basis for these bullshit claims? By design Zandronum doesn't tell the client the enemy hp so how the fuck is ZCC supposed to magically extract enemy hp?

[jdagenet]

ZCC's identify target overwrote the server setting pre-3.0. I'm not sure if it's been changed since the 3.0 build of ZCC has been released but it's definitely an advantage over official Zan build users. I was also told that players using ZCC were able to see their opponent's HP, not sure how true that is since I don't use ZCC.

...What are you talking about? ZCC -never- did that and you claim you haven't even used it yourself, so what's the basis for these bullshit claims? By design Zandronum doesn't tell the client the enemy hp so how the fuck is ZCC supposed to magically extract enemy hp?

I’ve used ZCC before and I know it overrides the disabling of target identification on the server’s side. It also can tell you your allies HP and armor values so when I was told it also says enemy HP I wasn’t surprised.

[Catastrophe]

ZCC's identify target overwrote the server setting pre-3.0. I'm not sure if it's been changed since the 3.0 build of ZCC has been released but it's definitely an advantage over official Zan build users. I was also told that players using ZCC were able to see their opponent's HP, not sure how true that is since I don't use ZCC.

...What are you talking about? ZCC -never- did that and you claim you haven't even used it yourself, so what's the basis for these bullshit claims? By design Zandronum doesn't tell the client the enemy hp so how the fuck is ZCC supposed to magically extract enemy hp?

I’ve used ZCC before and I know it overrides the disabling of target identification on the server’s side. It also can tell you your allies HP and armor values so when I was told it also says enemy HP I wasn’t surprised.

Bullshit.

Here's the code from Zandronum to check identify target from 2015 https://imgur.com/lQN2w4J
Then here's ZCC code from roughly the same time period https://imgur.com/HQRM7rU

Both snippets of code have this statement before rendering anything identifytarget related: "zadmflags & ZADF_NO_IDENTIFY_TARGET", and what this does is it checks whether or not identifytarget is toggled on the server. So either you are bullshitting or you didn't use our client which would raise some eyebrows here.

[Ru5tK1ng]

No, it's a non-issue that hasn't ever been a problem. Not when IDL was on zan or any of Dragon's leagues and not even in priv. The fact you just did it so simply and jumped the gun is quite telling.

People are going to complain about this given setting being on or off either way. The best I can do is to stay faithful to the standard we have been sticking with since the inception of this tournament.

But the faithful standard in Zandro has been with pickup sound lol.

Don't forget the mouse Y pitch allowed in hardware renderer that stomps SW.

2. That's a minimal leverage when it comes to shooting, made even more minuscule with autoaim. I'd hardly call that a "stomp";

Oh you mean autoaim that everyone complains never works reliably? And yes, there is a big different between -90 to 90 degrees of pitch compared to -32 to 56 in software. How ridiculous to claim otherwise.


I mean, yeah you can tell everyone get with the times and play in OGL but it can also be stated to get with the times and stop hanging on to old zd'ism too. At the end of the day, sound settings aren't what chase players off of Zandro, it's the netcode and mouse, then perceived RNG. Then again, all ports have shit netcode for competition, so maybe we're all just overthinking this.

[jdagenet]

ZCC's identify target overwrote the server setting pre-3.0. I'm not sure if it's been changed since the 3.0 build of ZCC has been released but it's definitely an advantage over official Zan build users. I was also told that players using ZCC were able to see their opponent's HP, not sure how true that is since I don't use ZCC.

...What are you talking about? ZCC -never- did that and you claim you haven't even used it yourself, so what's the basis for these bullshit claims? By design Zandronum doesn't tell the client the enemy hp so how the fuck is ZCC supposed to magically extract enemy hp?

I’ve used ZCC before and I know it overrides the disabling of target identification on the server’s side. It also can tell you your allies HP and armor values so when I was told it also says enemy HP I wasn’t surprised.

Bullshit.

Here's the code from Zandronum to check identify target from 2015 https://imgur.com/lQN2w4J
Then here's ZCC code from roughly the same time period https://imgur.com/HQRM7rU

Both snippets of code have this statement before rendering anything identifytarget related: "zadmflags & ZADF_NO_IDENTIFY_TARGET", and what this does is it checks whether or not identifytarget is toggled on the server. So either you are bullshitting or you didn't use our client which would raise some eyebrows here.

Don't know what to tell you then. The last time I used ZCC was about 2-3 years ago and I strictly remember SV_NOIDENTIFIYTARGET being 'true' on a GvH server yet I was able to see allies and enemies nametags and such. When I switched back to the official build I was not able to see nametags as it should've been. I downloaded ZCC from its official thread by the way.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also not saying you're right. I know what I used and I know what I saw and because of that I've avoided ZCC like the plague.

[Catastrophe]

...What are you talking about? ZCC -never- did that and you claim you haven't even used it yourself, so what's the basis for these bullshit claims? By design Zandronum doesn't tell the client the enemy hp so how the fuck is ZCC supposed to magically extract enemy hp?

I’ve used ZCC before and I know it overrides the disabling of target identification on the server’s side. It also can tell you your allies HP and armor values so when I was told it also says enemy HP I wasn’t surprised.

Bullshit.

Here's the code from Zandronum to check identify target from 2015 https://imgur.com/lQN2w4J
Then here's ZCC code from roughly the same time period https://imgur.com/HQRM7rU

Both snippets of code have this statement before rendering anything identifytarget related: "zadmflags & ZADF_NO_IDENTIFY_TARGET", and what this does is it checks whether or not identifytarget is toggled on the server. So either you are bullshitting or you didn't use our client which would raise some eyebrows here.

Don't know what to tell you then. The last time I used ZCC was about 2-3 years ago and I strictly remember SV_NOIDENTIFIYTARGET being 'true' on a GvH server yet I was able to see allies and enemies nametags and such. When I switched back to the official build I was not able to see nametags as it should've been. I downloaded ZCC from its official thread by the way.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm also not saying you're right. I know what I used and I know what I saw and because of that I've avoided ZCC like the plague.

So bullshit it is then. Unless someone can show me appropriate "proofs" of this, your hallucinations from 3 years ago has no grounds.