Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
Utsuho Reiuji
New User
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm

Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#1

Post by Utsuho Reiuji » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:07 pm

I don't intend to discuss reasons for banning, neither to ask for unbanning me. I understand your position and I would like to talk a little about the ban system.
I don't understand one thing: are you trying to show off your power and influence over other players with master-bans, or are you trying to make the game better by driving off cheaters, trolls and other scum?
If first, then I've wasted my time writing this and you may read no further.
Or, if you answer is the latter, I have a few propositions for you:
1) Specify ban's ending date and banner's nickname in "Emergency master banlist" thread
2) You should use Nickname Control to manage control over players, (I'll explain why below)
3) And don't meddle with players's affairs that much. Let them handle their own business by themselves. And if anyone finds himself uncomfortable while playing, he should use server-ban instead of master-ban. Because master-ban should be used only in critical situations, not just because someone said a few bad words to someone.
So, why am I against master-bans? Because they've not enough positive effect.
When I first downloaded Skulltag, my IP was already banned. I was confused, since I didn't even start playing. But it was easier for me to change my IP than finding out why my IP was banned and asking to get it unbanned.
And now:
178.120.*.*:Utsuho - Clan impseronation/Trolling - 178.120.226.67 - Nov 20th 2012
178.121.9.*:Utsuho Reiuji - Ban evasion - 178.121.9.90 - Dec 7th 2012
Yeah, I'm banned. So what? Do you really think that I can't access Zandronum?
Are you going to ban all "Player"s now? Didn't you think that there may be other people that use the same IP as mine? I know such people personally. But even if you ban all 178.*.*.* branch, you won't get rid of me. I can easily acquire an IP from another branch without using proxy or vpn (even though I also could use them).
In the end you'd get only an extra-wide ip ban list, but I'd still be around. I just like Doom that much. Let's be honest here: the only thing that you can do to me - restrict my authorisation. In other words, control my nickname. It doesn't matter if you'll do that with account systems or anyhow else, because I always can overcome this sort of control by entering as a new player. And if I couldn't even do that - I doubt that it would be possible for real new players to join. Then again, I have an advantage over them, because complicated registration systems usually scare newbies off. That's why I proposed that second proposition. The main difference between accounts and nickname control would be that the latter doesn't gather unnecessary IP data from players.

Let's look at the situation from the other view.
93.77.*.*:Dmitry - Crashing servers. 93.77.114.102 - December 13th 2012
I know this person. He uses a dynamic IP on 93.77.*.* branch, as well as a good person nicknamed Cyrus, who didn't do anything bad, but got banned too. And I even can prove that those two are not the same person. But here's the problem: you can't ban one of them by IP without banning the other one. And those two aren't the only example.
What to do? I said that already. Maybe it's not the most effective solution, but master-ban is even worse. Account system isn't going to do well too, since we can't be sure that 93.77.*.* branch is used only by those two. If you want to get rid of someone on a certain server, use server-ban.

So, are you going to persist on unnecessary master-bans, pray to account system, or think this over a little bit?
At least I've been frank with you.

User avatar
HeavenWraith
Forum Regular
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:58 pm
Location: Lytheaum
Clan: Quebeh
Clan Tag: [A3]
Contact:

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#2

Post by HeavenWraith » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:44 pm

We have been aware of this problem for quite some, we have contemplated numerous possible methods to restrict access without relying on IPs. That being said, everything identification method discussed was either very easy to spoof or very hard to implement. I can't really see your suggestions working because... well, they won't solve anything. Also, you forgot whitelisting, though that doesn't really change the fact that banning by IPs is still very very bad. One can only hope for IPv6 to come soon....
[18:55] <Decay> if you're upset, it is your obligation to make someone else upset

Metal
Forum Regular
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#3

Post by Metal » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:49 pm

Utsuho Reiuji wrote: I don't understand one thing: are you trying to show off your power and influence over other players with master-bans, or are you trying to make the game better by driving off cheaters, trolls and other scum?
We masterban people to rid the community of people who are breaking the rules.

All our bans correspond with the rules seen here:
http://zandronum.com/forum/announcements.php?aid=17
1) Specify ban's ending date and banner's nickname in "Emergency master banlist" thread
Some dates aren't specified yet. The only dates that are put on there, are the dates they were banned. Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.
3) And don't meddle with players's affairs that much. Let them handle their own business by themselves. And if anyone finds himself uncomfortable while playing, he should use server-ban instead of master-ban. Because master-ban should be used only in critical situations, not just because someone said a few bad words to someone.
So, why am I against master-bans? Because they've not enough positive effect.
This is already followed. People usually use server bans for minor things and don't meddle with server hosts unless absolutely unnecessary. There are rules for hosting as well.
http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=774
Right there. Master bans have kept MANY cheaters out of the Zandronum picture. While there are people we have trouble banning, that doesn't mean we should let them roam free, you included. Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return. Our only current way to ban people who break the rules is by IP. That is not something completely decided by staff, but the devs as well.
Are you going to ban all "Player"s now? Didn't you think that there may be other people that use the same IP as mine? I know such people personally. But even if you ban all 178.*.*.* branch, you won't get rid of me. I can easily acquire an IP from another branch without using proxy or vpn (even though I also could use them).
If you're caught, the IP you're playing with will be banned and your ban will extend 3 months for each evasion. Thanks for reporting yourself.
use server-ban.
Server bans use the same method as the master server...How would this accomplish anything different if a user is a widespread problem?
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

Utsuho Reiuji
New User
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#4

Post by Utsuho Reiuji » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:39 pm

Metal wrote: Some dates aren't specified yet
What is prevents you from doing this?
Metal wrote: Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.
I meant, nickname of banner's, person who setting this ban.
Metal wrote: Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return.
Do not you think that those who know how to inject cheats in Zandronum engine, should know what to do in case of being caught?
Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.
Where I said that I evade master-ban second time? My PC has broken, I cant turn it on. Now I'm using my old laptop, which too weak for running Zandronum. So I went in ZDaemon.
Trust the word or demand the proof?



But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
Last edited by Utsuho Reiuji on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
HeavenWraith
Forum Regular
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 9:58 pm
Location: Lytheaum
Clan: Quebeh
Clan Tag: [A3]
Contact:

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#5

Post by HeavenWraith » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:09 am

Utsuho Reiuji wrote: This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
First of all, we usually masterban users based on server host or player reports (seldom on original research). Second, I myself am one of Grandvoid administrators, and I'm sometimes personally involved in researching/discussing cases that end up in masterbans (or global GV bans). We (master server admins) wouldn't be doing if this if we were not familiar with the situation at hand. And last point - you base your assumptions on a few isolated cases. Don't think some people can take that for granted.
Utsuho Reiuji wrote: But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
Like I said, whitelisting.
[18:55] <Decay> if you're upset, it is your obligation to make someone else upset

User avatar
mifu
Lead Administrator
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:34 am
Location: Aussie Land
Clan: Demon RiderZ

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#6

Post by mifu » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:27 am

Utsuho Reiuji wrote:
Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.

Other details
I think you totally missed the point when Metal said The server bans use the same method as the master server.

Both of those use IP bans which is a problem for both Server admins and the master. A server cluster can accidentally ban innocents without knowing. Could you propose another solution?

Metal
Forum Regular
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#7

Post by Metal » Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:33 am

Utsuho Reiuji wrote:
Metal wrote: Some dates aren't specified yet
What is prevents you from doing this?
Metal wrote: Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.
I meant, nickname of banner's, person who setting this ban.
Metal wrote: Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return.
Do not you think that those who know how to inject cheats in Zandronum engine, should know what to do in case of being caught?
Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
Can't really understand what the hell you're saying or trying to say but I'll try.

We stopped putting the names of the admins who ban people on the master list as well as dates to be released so people would be more inclined to join the #staff channel over bans rather than bugging people via PM about it.

Not all people who cheat know how to evade bans. We've had many people come into the #staff channel and say they're banned and "I never cheated! It was my friend/brother/aunt/uncle/long lost alien half step sister". Then proceed to claim they can't get past the ban.
This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.
Where I said that I evade master-ban second time? My PC has broken, I cant turn it on. Now I'm using my old laptop, which too weak for running Zandronum. So I went in ZDaemon.
Trust the word or demand the proof?



But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
The first sentence I don't understand. I play very often. You are naive to think that I don't alias in-game. I have my own reasons for doing so. Just because you don't see me, doesn't mean I'm not there...But how would you see me in game if you're banned and now claim you're not ban evading? Hmm?

"Where I said that I evade master-ban second time?" You just did.

As for those two people you are asking about, they remained banned until further notice and we whitelist anyone who has been caught in their range, which so far, is nobody.
Last edited by Metal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

Utsuho Reiuji
New User
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#8

Post by Utsuho Reiuji » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:28 am

HeavenWraith wrote: Like I said, whitelisting.
How it can help, if these two using dynamic IP in same range?
mifu wrote: I think you totally missed the point when Metal said The server bans use the same method as the master server.
In case of server-ban, I can come to the server, where I know admin
In case of master-ban, I can't do nothing in except ban evasion. (or leaving in ZD)
I suppose you know, that if you're not familiar with the administration, you may be banned by any ridiculous reason. and it's not only my own opinion.
mifu wrote: Could you propose another solution?
In except nickname control? you may set password on all servers. you may set registration system with binding by phone number or passport data. but better to upgrade engine protection.
In other words, I have no effective solution too. I tryed to found solution, which should be not so aggressive against players. and if I find one more - I'll let you know
Metal wrote:But how would you see me in game if you're banned and now claim you're not ban evading? Hmm?
I didn't played until 20th nov? Hmm?
Metal wrote: "Where I said that I evade master-ban second time?" You just did.
Can't you see the difference between the possibilities and actions?
Metal wrote: As for those two people you are asking about, they remained banned until further notice and we whitelist anyone who has been caught in their range, which so far, is nobody.
In case with dynamic IP in same 93.77.*.* branch?

Metal
Forum Regular
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#9

Post by Metal » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:14 am

Utsuho Reiuji wrote: I didn't played until 20th nov? Hmm?

178.121.9.*:Utsuho Reiuji - Ban evasion - 178.121.9.90 - Dec 7th 2012
In except nickname control? you may set password on all servers. you may set registration system with binding by phone number or passport data. but better to upgrade engine protection.
In other words, I have no effective solution too. I tryed to found solution, which should be not so aggressive against players. and if I find one more - I'll let you know
...People are not going to give out that sort of information willingly online.
Last edited by Metal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

Llewellyn
Forum Regular
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:12 am

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#10

Post by Llewellyn » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:21 am

Utsuho does have a point though.
The only reason account systems work with other games is because you have to PAY for them. Not often comes a ban evader because if you ban evade you have to make a whole new account AND buy the game again.
Zandronum has no such qualms, it will be impossible to detect the difference between new accounts and ban evading attempts if an account system is put in place, there is no system which will prevent people from accessing the servers with a simple VPN.

Metal
Forum Regular
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#11

Post by Metal » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:23 am

Llewellyn wrote: Utsuho does have a point though.
The only reason account systems work with other games is because you have to PAY for them. Not often comes a ban evader because if you ban evade you have to make a whole new account AND buy the game again.
Zandronum has no such qualms, it will be impossible to detect the difference between new accounts and ban evading attempts if an account system is put in place, there is no system which will prevent people from accessing the servers with a simple VPN.
Ah, this I can understand. But yes, I thought about this ever since the account system was brought up...How will we know who is genuine and who is creating accounts to ban evade. Even under a completely new IP we would never know.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

User avatar
Torvald
Forum Regular
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:14 am
Location: Nothern Hemisphere

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#12

Post by Torvald » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:24 am

The best way to deal with these people is through Hardware IP.
Cyber: was chased by cowboys
Nautilus: Cowboys? more like a buncha kids chasing a fucking ice cream truck
UnixAssassin wrote:The definition of cheating is not this: Using an aim assisting tool in a game
BEST.EVER.
Teamspeak: WUMBO.CA

Utsuho Reiuji
New User
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm

RE: Master Policy Reforms

#13

Post by Utsuho Reiuji » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:29 pm

Llewellyn, I like it. I support your idea. In this case, we can at least hope for a fair investigation.
Metal wrote: How will we know who is genuine and who is creating accounts to ban evade. Even under a completely new IP we would never know.
Do you need to know this?
It's simply. We are evading bans - you are earning money.

User avatar
Ivan
Addicted to Zandronum
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Omnipresent

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#14

Post by Ivan » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:31 pm

How do you earn money on Doom? That's what I'm wondering.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===

Stoner
Forum Regular
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:03 pm
Location: Illuminati Nazi Sex Orgy Dungeon

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#15

Post by Stoner » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:34 pm

Ivan wrote: How do you earn money on Doom? That's what I'm wondering.
IDL Doomer Dollars.

Utsuho Reiuji
New User
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#16

Post by Utsuho Reiuji » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:52 pm

Yeah, very funny!

What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.

Metal
Forum Regular
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 am
Location: Canada

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#17

Post by Metal » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:06 pm

What does any of this have to do with money...I don't make any money off this.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

User avatar
Ivan
Addicted to Zandronum
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 pm
Location: Omnipresent

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#18

Post by Ivan » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:11 pm

Utsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!

What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
I'd say licensing is why there can be no money for account creation here. This game is still a property of ID software :P
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===

User avatar
Ænima
Addicted to Zandronum
Posts: 3428
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:12 pm
Location: Shpongleland

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#19

Post by Ænima » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Ivan wrote:
Utsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!

What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
I'd say licensing is why there can be no money for account creation here. This game is still a property of ID software :P
Well we can argue that we're charging money for use of our privatized service, independent of what IWAD is being played.

... But that's still a dumb idea. Zandronum should never involve real money of any sort. This is a *free* community. Any payments involved should be small donations to help pay for hosting the forums/master server.

Speaking of which, who hosts/pays for the master server?
Image ­ ­
­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
Doom64: Unabsolved: Doom64 and Diablo2 had a baby


ZandroSkins
: a pack made by our community
Squad Radio: a WASD-powered chat menu, add your own sounds
AeniPuffs: neat blood and puff effects

User avatar
Reach Term
Forum Regular
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:45 pm

RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]

#20

Post by Reach Term » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:29 pm

Utsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!

What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
You got to be kidding... ZDaemon User Registration was one of the problems for ZDaemon. No one likes to be forced to use a singular name, no one likes to be forced log in. Also this has nothing to do on how getting banned as Pre-1.09 ZDaemon, you could alias and still ban evaded. Also what prevents making paying accounts?
Oh I don't know:

* Lack of userbase that warrants such a system like World Of Warcraft and League Of Legend.
* It'll make players of all sorts to leave the port.(as do any games/forums/communities that were free for a long time now suddenly turn into paying cash cows)
* Not to mention the legal problems with id and the Zdanro 's admin team as they are profiting off their game; it doesn't matter who runs the game server, the master server or the port. If you are making people pay to play on a game that you don't own, you're going to get sued. Esp. when you're making large amounts of money off it.

I'm reading what you're proposing in your other posts and I can't take you seriously.... not at all. You're asking information that only the totalitarianism government in George Orwell's 1984 would be getting. You have a serious lack of understanding to right of privacy, info-technology and even the minor politics of running a community. Please, stop giving ideas... we don't need them nor do we want them.
Last edited by Reach Term on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply