A two cents on a rather never-dying issue

[Name]

I know next to nothing about the Skulltag / Zandorum community, but from what I've observed the people who have administrative access are incredibly immature and arrogant.
This goes across the board from people who have access to the banlist for the master servers, to the internal development hierarchy of Skulltag, to the IRC and the forums, the community has had a very elitist attitude ever since I started using Skulltag. This is why I distance myself from the community.

For a source port which nominally started out as being nothing more than a custom "mod" game mode with a .PK3 holding nothing but recolored sprites, Skulltag was built like a pile of shit and the community was reflected as such. It was created with all the wrong intentions, though something good did arise out of Skulltag, like the ingenious modding community. More or less it boiled down to some young kid who could compile source code trying to make a '1337' grouping of underlings and run a false community. I see it all the time, all across the internet, and it has nothing to do with anything other than control. For example, what do I need to do to become a moderator or administrator of the forums?
Precisely.

If anything, the moderators need to NOT make their presence known and avoid a public statement at all costs. That's how professional-class boards work. Any other action is an arrogant display of authority and power over another. If anyone needs moderated, the moderators ban the person for whatever length of time, with a reason, and that's it. If someone starts trolling, moderators should leave it alone unless the person provoking is taking it too far or someone complains.

[UnTrustable]

Im so much more in peace since i banned irc out of my life for quite some years.
You all should do the same... nah im joking here.
Zandronum is now brought to life for how long? We...?... they just started the whole thing up recently.
In the last couple of years i think Metal is not the Metal of 3 or 4 years ago.
I know we are all human beings, and sure, once in a while we could have 1 or 2 bad days, and in those days we can't stand alot.
Normally i would go do other things than just reading the internetz, untill i feel much better and calm/under control.

We all grow, we all learn, we all get better..... most of us will.
And sure, if i were a moderator, i would be a good listener, and i am not such a banner-type, in fact, i hate bans, but thats just my opinion, and mine alone im afraid.
But i dont wanna be one, it takes too much energy, and takes me away from whatever i want to do for the Doom community.

[Name]

^--- this is all complete bullcrap.

[UnTrustable]

who's is bullcrap? Mine?
Im sorry to hear that from a 'new user'... :D


In some of your arguments im completely agreed with.
Recently i was abbyssed for the second time in all those years for passwording my works, for more than 3 months.
If the forum didnt shut down, i was most likely abyssed for a more longer time.
Sure i complained alittle. i think i made 2 or 3 posts in the Skulltag Abyss, Zap can comfirmed it, that i
wasnt such a'n asshole', even that i was abyssed.
I just left, and go elsewhere....
Sure you can argue and fight against the mods decisions....
i would say, lets leave the place where you got no respect from.
Not that you have to leave just because i say so,.....
But it would be a good thing for anyone if there was some admin/mod you can tell your side of your issue there, and
where they will solve the problem with you, without throwing things to one another. (or banning people.)

For example, what do I need to do to become a moderator or administrator of the forums?
Precisely.

Well, i think as just being a user only, not this way. You may sound like you are at least abit angry towards a few staffs.
I believe that sort of behaviour is a wrong thing to have.
Just stating only 1 little thing here.

[Dusk]

I think someone mixed Zandronum with ZDaemon here..

[Edward-san]

^ That and please don't feed the trolls...

[Qent]

It doesn't necessarily make sense to model the Zandronum community on "professional-class" boards. There is no money involved here. Moderators and admins have only one reason to do what they do: so that they themselves can play the game.

[Metal]

I know next to nothing about the Skulltag / Zandorum community, but from what I've observed the people who have administrative access are incredibly immature and arrogant.
This goes across the board from people who have access to the banlist for the master servers, to the internal development hierarchy of Skulltag, to the IRC and the forums, the community has had a very elitist attitude ever since I started using Skulltag. This is why I distance myself from the community.

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience on Skulltag/Zandronum. I agree that before the community as a whole, even the staff, had a very blunt and in your face attitude before, but that is no longer the case. And if you're having trouble with myself or the staff, you're free to come to me and talk about it and I'll see what I can do to help you.

For a source port which nominally started out as being nothing more than a custom "mod" game mode with a .PK3 holding nothing but recolored sprites, Skulltag was built like a pile of shit and the community was reflected as such. It was created with all the wrong intentions, though something good did arise out of Skulltag, like the ingenious modding community. More or less it boiled down to some young kid who could compile source code trying to make a '1337' grouping of underlings and run a false community. I see it all the time, all across the internet, and it has nothing to do with anything other than control. For example, what do I need to do to become a moderator or administrator of the forums?
Precisely.

To become a moderator/administrator for the community, one usually has to present a mature attitude, be able to take on responsibility for their actions and must be able to be trusted. I'm unsure if you've tried to become staff in the past and you've been rejected, but it's not as difficult as it may seem.

If anything, the moderators need to NOT make their presence known and avoid a public statement at all costs. That's how professional-class boards work. Any other action is an arrogant display of authority and power over another. If anyone needs moderated, the moderators ban the person for whatever length of time, with a reason, and that's it. If someone starts trolling, moderators should leave it alone unless the person provoking is taking it too far or someone complains.

Speaking of which, I've actually had complaints about this very post of yours. Stating it's flamebait. I decided against "Banning you for whatever length of time" And outright locking the thread. I disagree with you when you say we should stay in the shadows and hide everything we do. I think the community should have some say in how we operate or even just some suggestions.

You're entitled to your opinion, but here, we'd rather mingle with the community as the users we are. And as we've stated before, we are just the same as anyone else here. These aren't "Professional-based" boards. These are video game boards, and a small community at best. We're not here to flaunt our "power" around and we're not here to show we're better than anyone else. We're just regular people with different tasks here.

If you honestly have any problems with Zandronum, I'm available for PMing. I don't bite :)

[Zap610]

If anything, the moderators need to NOT make their presence known and avoid a public statement at all costs. That's how professional-class boards work. Any other action is an arrogant display of authority and power over another. If anyone needs moderated, the moderators ban the person for whatever length of time, with a reason, and that's it. If someone starts trolling, moderators should leave it alone unless the person provoking is taking it too far or someone complains.

I see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree with it. Well, not all of it. I do agree that professional boards work this way but at the same time players don't like that. I've been part of a community where the staff worked like that and the players (me included) get upset because that draws a line in the sand between staff and users. I always liked it when staff would act like humans and talk to us as equals instead of talking down to us or even worse- not saying anything at all. Silence is the worst. When players are up in arms about an issue and there is nobody from staff to comment on it then it's basically saying nobody cares and it's being ignored. Maybe it isn't being ignored, but how is anyone to know? And again, these are my observations as a user not an administrator.

[Reach Term]

As I've been lurking on and off in this "new leaf" of a community and I must say, nothing as changed. Noting the future rather the now... I've seen that the same people who are now the ones who is running the community is rather the same people who create this mess in the first place. I think the problem is not the people who created the problem but rather the people who handle it. It's talk about Metal, *This is not a pro de-admin message* Her years of ineffectively handling known people proved that they're a problem and handle it in a bad way. I'm scared that she'll go back on her own administration ways and perform those people ineffectively. Rather not talk it through and play diplomat, she'll become the good old ban ban fuck off person of who she is. I think the problem is that many of the moderation and administration is that, they all have special interest people behind that. These people are not for the community... only themselves and those special interest groups like competitive scene and what not.

While my past may have not been a bright one in the Skulltag community, I took my leave for a bit of time, had a nice breather and was able to come to my senses about many things.

You have your opinions, and you're certainly entitled to them but it's time to move on from the past and look ahead to the good things that may arise, rather than just the bad, or in your case, what might go bad.

I'm perfectly willing and able to take criticism and suggestions on how things are going with myself and the rest of our staff. Even if you have any issues, you're more than welcome to come to me and chat. It's what I'm here for.

Our goal is to make this port a peaceful place for EVERYONE to enjoy, staff, users, developers, everyone. So if you have any suggestions on how to do so, feel free to speak up.

True but like they say, old habits die hard. I feel that this community endure so much drama and crap that we became a "overly-friendly" board. I think that without people being rude to one another makes the community feel... well babies. However, too much of it will become... well you know what happen. I would Pm you for things as I have many things to talk about; however, I like to voice them publicly so people can get the idea of things. I don't like to talk about things in a micro-way. Rather, a more macro-way of things. Not talk about the piece of pie but the pie itself.

As I've been lurking on and off in this "new leaf" of a community and I must say, nothing as changed. Noting the future rather the now... I've seen that the same people who are now the ones who is running the community is rather the same people who create this mess in the first place. I think the problem is not the people who created the problem but rather the people who handle it. It's talk about Metal, *This is not a pro de-admin message* Her years of ineffectively handling known people proved that they're a problem and handle it in a bad way. I'm scared that she'll go back on her own administration ways and perform those people ineffectively. Rather not talk it through and play diplomat, she'll become the good old ban ban fuck off person of who she is. I think the problem is that many of the moderation and administration is that, they all have special interest people behind that. These people are not for the community... only themselves and those special interest groups like competitive scene and what not.

I'd call this absurd but that would be an insult to absurd things

I guess you are doom's equivalent of conspiracy theorists. there is none of this bullshit in the community and perhaps you should open your eyes. a whole lot of things are thriving in this new community, but no. apparently it's all OMG BAD ADMINS and OMG CATERING TO COMPETITIVE LOLOLOL

please

I am quite a conspiracy theorists; however, I'm no new kid on the block. I've been here for years and I know for a fact that the old players have a bigger voice than new players. You'll find in any community is that, it's quite like social life in high school.

@op: To be fair, Metal and other mods are charged with keeping the peace while they have inadequate moderation tools, which make some of their moderations moot. That alone is enough to drive someone zarking insane. I don't hold the mods to any higher standard than myself. I think a bit of zeal and/or passion is required of a person for them to even want to be a mod.

Nobody's perfect. I think you have a grudge: Even if you don't actively engage in it. You seem unreceptive to the concepts of change and/or compromise.

I'd like to see if better mod tools might make better mods. Sounds reasonable to me.

Indeed, like I say... it's quite too early to tell. Maybe, just maybe, we need an dramatic-martyr to rock this cradle of a community. Then we'll see how they are under-pressure.

@Name: I completely agree with you. Also I think your post wasn't consider to be flame bait.

@Twister: I think this topic is beyond you; go somewhere else. (I am a rude man to people who don't know how to talk properly in a controversial issue conversation. I'll redact this statement if I have too.)

@Kal: To be perfectly honest, I rather have Theta back than you. I've never talked you, I've never met you... I am apart of the percent of people that want you banned.

This whole community lacks of perception of common sense. It's not the old players I'm always mad at, just the new teenage kids who think they can say their irrelevant opinions on stuff they don't know what they're talking about.

[Mooseknuckle]

...I'm going to admit that I'm completely new to this community since I wasn't here when the Skulltag forums still existed, buuuut...

If everyone refrains from being assholes, there shouldn't be any problems, right? ...Right?

[Hammerfest-]

"Indeed, like I say... it's quite too early to tell. Maybe, just maybe, we need an dramatic-martyr to rock this cradle of a community. Then we'll see how they are under-pressure."

I think they've experienced that before, and that'd be the whole fiasco over the Staff and Competition line that was riling up most (or to say the least, possibly some.) of the competitive players (Myself included.) due to the way competition itself was being handled in Skulltag itself. Most of the staff there at that point in time had different views on the whole competition fiasco, some one sided and others actually with the view on both sides of the argument, and it ended up pressuring them to come to a compromise of the whole "section moderation" idea (Competitive Moderators, Development Moderators, etc.) I think that was the staff's biggest ordeal at the time, and I will admit that at the time it wasn't such a 'great' idea, but it was a somewhat good push towards the right direction, but there were still some holes that were left in the middle of the issue.

I don't think pushing them in a situation that they don't really want to be in would be a good way to see how they really are (even though in all honesty they are the same staff from Skulltag, only with promotions for some while others stayed in their same rank.), especially at this point where they are still settling in from the whole Skulltag fork situation. I think that the way that the staff's going on about things at this current state have been very good steps, but they still have a lot to work for if they want stuff to 'change'. Remember, something like change takes a while, it just doesn't come out magically.

To follow with what Decay said though...

> I'm not really seeing any problems crop up because of staff yet, so why don't you guys settle down and just wait and see, instead of stirring the pot so early on.

"...I'm going to admit that I'm completely new to this community since I wasn't here when the Skulltag forums still existed, buuuut...

If everyone refrains from being assholes, there shouldn't be any problems, right? ...Right?"

It's not as simple as it seems. Someone eventually is going to blow and will cause a problem, with others following the said someone. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and say that this is going to be Candyland where everyone is nice and gives Zandronum a good name and makes it look like the greatest port to be in. However, with the way things are going it seems that this forum won't suffer from really dramatic, unnecessary issues (As far as I've seen, threads like this are an awesome step into the right direction.).

[Razgriz]

I'm unsure if you've tried to become staff in the past and you've been rejected, but it's not as difficult as it may seem.

I have to disagree with the not too difficult part. I tried 2 (maybe 3) times to see if I could make it on staff by asking other staff members to vouch for me (I believe the first person I asked was Dynamo, and the second was probably Dynamo again and Grymmoire or HeavenWraith). All tries were met with the most interesting response: that I was basically too radical even though it's me being vocal and disagreeing with statements or decisions staff had made.

So in short, the proper phrase is "It's not difficult if you're liked."

[Nubcakes]

Well, I'd just like to chime in and say the Mods/admins/devs/whateveryouwanttocallthemnow seem pretty neutral now. During some earlier discussions on these forums I said some things that were rather aggressive and indirect accusations toward the people in charge of zandronum that 3 years ago would have resulted in flames and a possible ban on the skulltag forums. The responses I received from the staff were mostly neutral. I think Zandronum will be fine. From what I've seen the staff seems rather mature now. Except Igor... I dont know what to make of him but he makes me smile so he's cool!

[Mobius]

Hey guys! guys! HEY EVERYONE!

I am one of the minority of people that has super influence and sway like a certain person here mentioned. I'm unbanned from STIRC! GOOD DAYS! See, I used my interstellar charm and A3 lobbying power to come back, and now the Free Mansion Illuminati Trinomial commission is out in the open.

Seeing the slight transparency of the staff with a few names now on the roaster has made me feel a lot more comfortable than before. Only the subverts, nobodies, and outcast are against what the staff is now. This is coming from someone that has picked a bone with almost every staff member here, and I can safely say things are picking up well.

It's a so far so good scenario, but my main concern is whether or not the facade can hold or if it's permanent. I guess the community at large has too chip in to and BEHAVE more and think instead of always relying on the staff to make decisions for them.

And now we play the waiting game..

[Ivan]

First and foremost, if you want to voice thing publicly, it would be nice to let everyone know who "reach term" is. I have my own suspicions, based on your grammar, phrasing, avatar, and topic of choice, but I'll let you decide whether or not you want to reveal yourself.

Donald Trump ?

[Reach Term]

First and foremost, if you want to voice thing publicly, it would be nice to let everyone know who "reach term" is. I have my own suspicions, based on your grammar, phrasing, avatar, and topic of choice, but I'll let you decide whether or not you want to reveal yourself.

Actually, "Reach Term" is an anagram of my old name. I'm not going break the puzzle; however, I've never appear to hide my identity in any way. I simply smear it for political reasons.

Second, I agree there is no need to coddle each other. It is sickening to see, but for the most part, we are not coddling each other. I know of one example that took being over friendly too far, and talking to him is a little... uh, let's say challenging. At the same time, unnecessary rudeness is not needed. In terms of the competitive side, sure I would advocate some clan rivalry banter. For projects, most projects of worth don't deserve rudeness, a lot of people have put a lot of time into their work. For public discussion such as this, rudeness is fine, but it only detracts from your own credibility and serves no real purpose.

True... one can not be without the other. If people aren't rude at times then what's the point of it all? I rather tell someone who keeps posting unfunny stuff to fuck off than tell that person to simply stop. That way, he can learn his place.

Why would new users warrant the same weight as a well known contributor? Respect is a two way street; it has to be earned, and it has to be given. New users have to show respect to be respected and likewise admins should respect new users, who will (theoretically) respect them in turn. A user of 2 weeks does not have the respect levels of a 2 year user who has contributed to the community in a variety of ways. Forums such as these are indeed social phenomena, albeit in a different medium, but unless we are grounded within another culture, we still have to largely adhere to the unwritten rules of dominant culture and society. This is not much of a problem unless you choose to make one out of it.

Indeed; however... it doesn't matter how long you play here. If you're in the competitive scene and you're well like, then you have open options. If you like to play AOW or GVH... then you're nothing. That's my main point in all this.

Do you intend to be this martyr? I know there is a lot of simmering hatred carried over from skulltag between a lot of people. I myself have stirred up a ton of crap between people, and I am (mostly) trying to make amends because of one simple fact: we don't NEED the drama. Doom is a game. There is no real purpose to be served to have people at your throat all the time. I can't play skulltag in public servers without people coming to bitch at me for something, or attempt to "troll me" by "pretending" to be retarded. Sure, there will inevitably be some kind of dramatic event, but why bother speeding it along? Let the forums take it's course; it's a few weeks old, and already I am seeing a lot of improvements in the community and administration. There is hope for this new community; don't rock the cradle too hard or you may disturb the baby unnecessarily.

No, I've already played this role. It gotten me to places where I can't even talk about. However, I agree... it's too early for any of this to happen. I'm just gonna sit back, lurk in the shadows and watch this place turn into.

I don't think the whole community does. Some do though. Eventually I believe it will be corrected. I think it's time you let go of some of your anger; I'm not asking you to be happy and joyous to everyone, just... let it go. I admit I don't know what happened years ago, but I think you are capable of a fresh start if you really wanted to.

I'm always piss off at unfunny teenage kids voicing their opinions on shit they don't research on. A la Twister, who PM me about wanting to stage a coup for whatever reason.

[Ivan]

I play AoW and GvH, and I'm top of the heap. Seems like you are here to start pointless conflicts. Do as you said and "lurk in shadows" like the person you are.

[Metal]

In my opinion, drawing attention to things that aren't there or aren't happening seems a little pointless. I think it would be best to play the game, mingle with the community about more important matters, and try to enjoy yourself instead of being skeptical. As I have admitted before, the staff wasn't at it's best on Skulltag, but things are proving to be different here. Not only that, the staff aren't at 100% fault, as someone stated here, respect is a two way street. If the community acts out, we act out, and it's a vicious circle. If we all pitch in to keep the peace, there should be virtually no problems at all.

We're doing our part, I'm hoping that you'll do yours and try to at least enjoy your time here

[VortexCortex]

Reach Term:
I think the fact this thread is still alive is proof of at least some changes. In reality, the fact that it's mostly the same staff is a good thing. Their experience has made them a little wiser than a fresh crop of mods and admins would be.

I too agree that things weren't always so great in Skulltag land, but people are not their actions. I believe the people here are the good sort. Few exude nothing but malice, and even they can come around if they really want to.

I may be wrong, but I think some of the flippancy and other behaviors of the staff sort of trickled down from the mannerisms of the Overmind from which they drew their powers.
Zandronum is under new management than ST was at the highest level. That's a drastic enough change already for me to try out the community again.

Ask yourself this: Can you ever change your own ways?
If you can, so can others. People change all the time, literally. Your brain is changing right now in small ways just to comprehend these words. As long as awesome little changes like that can happen, there's hope for even bigger changes. Experience changes all of us, most times for the better.