Random Damage and Competitive play: Why they don't mix

[Bloax]

If they survived an SSG shot that was nicely aimed (most of the pellets hit) and they didn't die, these are the most likely considerations:

* They picked up a soulsphere or other health giving item.

If we're talking duels, then item respawn is quite often off.
I can also say that I've definitely fragged quite a lot of times after surviving with mere 5 health.

All of them could've been avoided if only the opponent wasn't cursed by the cRuel Number God.

* They have armor on (Green taking 1/3 of the damage and Blue taking 1/2)

Few maps have those, so that point is really weak. And if we're talking duels; then no item respawn still counts.
Also, if that was the case, I doubt the original post would even exist.

* You didn't actually hit them.

This isn't ZDaemon, silly. If you hit - you hit.
Of course there's the packetloss case with shots disappearing - but if that would be the case; you wouldn't even see a shot.

*COUGH*

Also yes, this could be an interesting thing to play with. (If it was a flag.)
It'd be nice with a complimenting +WEAPON.ALWAYSRANDOM flag that bypasses it, too.
(For weapons you'd prefer stay random. Like, say - the berserk fist? Can't think of anything ATM, but it'd be nice.)

[StrikerMan780]

Also, while it isn't getting rid of the random number generation... compat_oldrandom is something you should try in a server. It uses the same PRNG as Doom2.exe, where the average damage is higher, and usually more consistent. I'm unsure if it affects SSG spread patterns... but if it does, I suppose that's good too.

[Qent]

Bullets do 5, 10, or 15 damage; not 20. It's not important to the discussion, but just so no one gets confused later on.

Awareness of the RNG is a skill that you have decided to ignore because it doesn't appeal to you. Let's flesh out your chaingun example: Random Perfect Player knows how the RNG works and accounts for it while making decisions. Constant Perfect Player is oblivious to the RNG, and assumes that all bullets do their average damage. Otherwise they have perfect accuracy. Their game consists of a series of chaingun encounters with 100 health and no armor. They take turns choosing to shoot first by a split second, or to get a Megasphere, provided they win the encounter. Whoever gets a Megasphere will surely get three more frags before dying. Constant will choose to shoot first every time, because he thinks he can kill Random with certainty. But Random knows that he actually has a very good chance of surviving, even if he's a single bullet behind, and will choose the Megasphere.

The payoffs might be off in this contrived example, but you get the idea. Therefore, one of the tactical choices a skilled player must make is whether to throw himself at the mercy of the RNG or to wait for the sure thing.

EDIT:

If we're talking duels, then item respawn is quite often off.

Turn it on!

[Frits]

Chance is fun, lets import critical hits from TF2, but only for competitive gaming.

[Ivan]

Bullets do 5, 10, or 15 damage; not 20. It's not important to the discussion, but just so no one gets confused later on.

Awareness of the RNG is a skill that you have decided to ignore because it doesn't appeal to you. Let's flesh out your chaingun example: Random Perfect Player knows how the RNG works and accounts for it while making decisions. Constant Perfect Player is oblivious to the RNG, and assumes that all bullets do their average damage. Otherwise they have perfect accuracy. Their game consists of a series of chaingun encounters with 100 health and no armor. They take turns choosing to shoot first by a split second, or to get a Megasphere, provided they win the encounter. Whoever gets a Megasphere will surely get three more frags before dying. Constant will choose to shoot first every time, because he thinks he can kill Random with certainty. But Random knows that he actually has a very good chance of surviving, even if he's a single bullet behind, and will choose the Megasphere.

The payoffs might be off in this contrived example, but you get the idea. Therefore, one of the tactical choices a skilled player must make is whether to throw himself at the mercy of the RNG or to wait for the sure thing.

EDIT:

If we're talking duels, then item respawn is quite often off.

Turn it on!

Nice theory, different in practice though.

[Theshooter7]

Awareness of the RNG is a skill that you have decided to ignore because it doesn't appeal to you.

Uhh, I would think that posting this very topic is proof that I'm well aware of the RNG and am stating how it does not offer a level playing field for your players.

Let's flesh out your chaingun example: Random Perfect Player knows how the RNG works and accounts for it while making decisions. Constant Perfect Player is oblivious to the RNG, and assumes that all bullets do their average damage. Otherwise they have perfect accuracy. Their game consists of a series of chaingun encounters with 100 health and no armor. They take turns choosing to shoot first by a split second, or to get a Megasphere, provided they win the encounter. Whoever gets a Megasphere will surely get three more frags before dying. Constant will choose to shoot first every time, because he thinks he can kill Random with certainty. But Random knows that he actually has a very good chance of surviving, even if he's a single bullet behind, and will choose the Megasphere.

Sorry, but mentioning the Megasphere invalidates the entire thing. At no point had I mentioned powerups or pickups of any kind being involved. Though this does play into a point I'm making--with no RNG, the guy shooting the one running for the megasphere should win if his accuracy is good enough. He should not get completely destroyed just because the RNG decided to play against him.

The payoffs might be off in this contrived example, but you get the idea. Therefore, one of the tactical choices a skilled player must make is whether to throw himself at the mercy of the RNG or to wait for the sure thing.

And this brings up the real question: Should they really need to make that choice? If they are good enough to kill their opposition, they shouldn't need to worry about randomly being hit by a stronger-than-usual attack that instantly kills them.

[Bloax]

If the other guy notices the megasphere is gone, it's time to play shoot&hide.

So it kinda all comes down to adaptivity, which MY BEST GUESS would be - is part of the "Skills" pack.

[Frits]

If the other guy notices the megasphere is gone, it's time to play shoot&hide.

So it kinda all comes down to adaptivity, which MY BEST GUESS would be - is part of the "Skills" pack.

But this has nothing to do with the random damage issue. Using brain instead of all out aim usually wins the game. But that isn't what this topic is about.

[ALIENwolve]

In my opinion, the random number generation was used to negate the fact that targets have only one hitbox. Emulating hitting random vital points on a monster.

The game itself was never designed for multiplayer. I actually think the weapons have a terrible spread between average kill times. So yes, non-random damage is a good idea if you want to be running "competitive" gameplay. Maybe if the damage was consistent, the shotgun and chaingun wouldn't feel so incompetent on their own.

[Qent]

Sorry, I didn't mean that you were the Constant Player, just that you considered being aware of the RNG "not a skill" (which is fine) although it could theoretically give someone an advantage.

And this brings up the real question: Should they really need to make that choice? If they are good enough to kill their opposition, they shouldn't need to worry about randomly being hit by a stronger-than-usual attack that instantly kills them.

That is the real question, and my answer is yes. If you only want to attack when victory is certain, then you have to make that situation happen.

[Marcaek]

The game itself was never designed for multiplayer.

Sure it was. From the Doomwiki:

Deathmatch is a multiplayer game style pioneered by Doom in which players face off against each other, their computers connected to a common server via a network.

[Medicris]

Almost all games based around competitive play do not have random damage and if not, they have the option of making it so. Quake, Team Fortress, Unreal Tournament, Tribes, etc.

Random spread is another matter, but I feel that it's an important point as well. TF2 in particular allows random spread to be turned off (example: the Scout scattergun's pellets land in a 3x3 grid). If you want skill to be the only factor instead of random chance, then this could be a feature as well.

As for the constant damage, just use the average. Bullets would do 10 each, for example.

Not to mention, it would help very much for the modding community to be able to use the FBF_NORANDOM flag for balancing weapons.

[Theshooter7]

That is the real question, and my answer is yes. If you only want to attack when victory is certain, then you have to make that situation happen.

Fair enough of a stance.

Random spread is another matter, but I feel that it's an important point as well. TF2 allows random spread to be turned off (example: the Scout scattergun's pellets land in a 3x3 grid).

Ah yes, Random Bullet Spread. I can see why it'd be somewhat important in TF2, but since, in Doom (hopefully at least, unless the map authors decided to be just plain evil), random spread isn't an issue since players have access to all the same weapons, some of which do not have random spread at all (in a sense they can be controlled at least).

[ALIENwolve]

The game itself was never designed for multiplayer.

Sure it was. From the Doomwiki:

Deathmatch is a multiplayer game style pioneered by Doom in which players face off against each other, their computers connected to a common server via a network.

Oh yes and I think you'd also feel that Turok 2 presented intense competitive multiplayer, just by it being capable of playing multiplayer?

[Theshooter7]

@ALIENwolve: Actually, he is correct; Doom was intended for multiplayer from the start. Numerous interviews with various people of id Software had proven it. Albeit, it was sort of a last-minute idea that was implemented as one extra small feature. It was just luck that it exploded into what it is now.

Also: id Software's History (In particular the Doom episode)

Unless you meant Doom being built from the ground up for Multiplayer, in which case you are right and it wasn't.

[DevilutioN]

I'm pretty content with how things are as-is. Why fix what ain't broke?

My opinion on random damage is its just a part of Doom :)

[Razgriz]

I don't think random-ness is THAT big of a deal that the damage needs to be static. The worst that happens is that your pellets all do 5 damage and might not kill (SSG) which is pretty rare. You can compensate the random-ness with your skill (ie. movement, aim and reaction) so that it's not a hindrance, even though it technically is not a hindrance since you both are subjected to the same standard.

[ALIENwolve]

Unless you meant Doom being built from the ground up for Multiplayer, in which case you are right and it wasn't.

I'm talkin' built for players to shoot each other in a remotely consistent and engaging manner.

[Mobius]

You know what? I am going to side with Theshooter in this argument, and he didn't even take into account latency in online play!

Not only do you have to work around the potential missing packet that could undo the damage of a shot of yours, but you have a very good chance of hitting someone directly and pushing them without doing any real damage you should have otherwise done.

http://forums.zdaemon.org/viewtopic.php ... 60916d8710

Reminds me of this really. Doom is partly luck based and it's one of those things that pretty much upsets me. I don't mind luck in competitive play, but it doesn't dictate the actual game. Something like Street Fighter doesn't have set damage parameters based on hit priority. The damage is more consistent than a 1d20 ssg for damn sure, and the only luck you're getting is not executing a move at a precise time correctly or it not coming out at all for whatever reason. In TCGs you manipulate your topdeck with deck sizes or cards that allow you to draw for a hand advantage, though there's some luck involved in this; however, I am confident that a Blue Eyes or Avatar of Might is going to do the damage written on the card unless my opponent does something to change that.. not some random dice roll each time a monster attacks.

[AlexMax]

Competitive Doom cannot possibly be competitive in a fair, leveled manner that actually shows the full skill and/or talent of players against one another

Why? Well, the one, immense reason, as in the title:

Random Damage

Your premise is flat out incorrect. While I think that a mod that 'fixes' random damage ranges and shot patterns would be an interesting experiment, making blanket statements like that is disingenuous, and it is my belief that random damage in and of itself is not "anti-competitive".

Competitive play ultimately boils down to "good" players being able to consistently get better results than "bad" players. Something as random as Rock Paper Scissors can be played competitively because of the amount of human psychology involved...a good RPS player can always outguess a bad one over the course of a series of games. To take video game examples, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo and Defense of the Ancients both have random elements to them, and yet are played competitively in spite of this.

Now, I'm not trying to imply that your idea is bad. What you are proposing is not without precedent...the Challenge Promode modification for Quake III Arena makes many changes to the gameplay over VQ3 that decreases randomness (in particular, the shotgun pattern has a perfect spread). The problem is if you want to introduce a new competitive standard for something with an already existing standard, such as Doom or IDL-style CTF, you need to take into account the very best players who have played by the old standard for so long. You need a not-trivial number of them on board, and even take their input into account, otherwise your competitive standard will at best be regarded as the "kiddie pool", with the "real competition" elsewhere (which is something Zandronum already has issues with). Or simply not played at all (look at what happened to ChainDM, and Chaindude is a very skilled and well regarded player).