Bots in permanent servers
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Bots in permanent servers
I've talked about this before in #staff, probably a few months ago.
At the time the people involved informed me that permanent servers were not allowed to have any bots at all, and if they did have bots, they would be put on the master server ignore list.
Lately I've seen some bots in what I think are permanent servers, and I was wondering if there has been any changes in the policy about bots; both doomseeker and IDE support "bots are not players", so I don't really understand the problem that servers with even 64 bots cause -- do they use extra network traffic? How much extra?
In my opinion bots are a valuable engine feature for helping people start great DM games (so they can shoot something while they wait in an empty server for more players), and they should be available to server hosts.
If there are other reasons for not allowing bots on permanent servers, let me know. I personally would like to use 1 bot on every DM server I host.
Thanks
At the time the people involved informed me that permanent servers were not allowed to have any bots at all, and if they did have bots, they would be put on the master server ignore list.
Lately I've seen some bots in what I think are permanent servers, and I was wondering if there has been any changes in the policy about bots; both doomseeker and IDE support "bots are not players", so I don't really understand the problem that servers with even 64 bots cause -- do they use extra network traffic? How much extra?
In my opinion bots are a valuable engine feature for helping people start great DM games (so they can shoot something while they wait in an empty server for more players), and they should be available to server hosts.
If there are other reasons for not allowing bots on permanent servers, let me know. I personally would like to use 1 bot on every DM server I host.
Thanks
RE: Bots in permanent servers
Huh? I'm pretty sure you're totally allowed to have bots in your own server. Just don't bloat a server with 64 bots just to get attention. People have done that before. :p
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- Tiger
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
The policy has not really changed, but don't quote me either as I could be wrong. Last I heard and read about this rule, it is to prevent the gameserver from being on the 'top' of the list and to avoid useless clutter, but it is true that both IDE and Doomseeker can easily filter such gameservers (ignore them or do not treat bots as players). Additionally, the bots used in this engine does not really take extra bandwidth, but merely CPU cycles and additional RAM from the host system.jwaffe wrote: Lately I've seen some bots in what I think are permanent servers, and I was wondering if there has been any changes in the policy about bots; both doomseeker and IDE support "bots are not players", so I don't really understand the problem that servers with even 64 bots cause -- do they use extra network traffic? How much extra?
I fully agree with this statement, and that was my whole reasoning behind Armada and Sentinel's Playground for having bots in the Gameservers. It is NOT to advertise the gameservers so they appear at the _top_ of the gameserver browser list from either IDE or Doomseeker or the like, but to help start a game going. In my past, I have experienced waiting in a gameserver for almost 30 minutes waiting for just someone to connect, but once someone does connect most of the time they will ragequit later on or the waiting game is just not worth it. Adding bots to the game shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't be treated as such as it is only a feature. The only way around this, is to modify the source code to where the bots count in the gameserver is never given or always set to zero.jwaffe wrote: In my opinion bots are a valuable engine feature for helping people start great DM games (so they can shoot something while they wait in an empty server for more players), and they should be available to server hosts.
Personally, I don't see a problem and I wouldn't mind if there was some exception to the rule, not _every_ host is going to do go out of their way and clutter the master server with superfluous gameservers.
From what I have heard from MiFU, which he asked The Toxic Avenger, even adding '1' bot - breaks the rules entirely. That is if I remember correctly.Ænima wrote: Huh? I'm pretty sure you're totally allowed to have bots in your own server. Just don't bloat a server with 64 bots just to get attention. People have done that before. :p
EDIT: Replied to AEnima
EDIT^2: Revision update
Last edited by Tiger on Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
I meant if I applied it to like 50 servers lol. I think it is fine, if it's one server or a small amount. If more then the amount i said, it will piss people off.Tiger wrote:The policy has not really changed, but don't quote me either as I could be wrong. Last I heard and read about this rule, it is to prevent the gameserver from being on the 'top' of the list and to avoid useless clutter, but it is true that both IDE and Doomseeker can easily filter such gameservers (ignore them or do not treat bots as players). Additionally, the bots used in this engine does not really take extra bandwidth, but merely CPU cycles and additional RAM from the host system.jwaffe wrote: Lately I've seen some bots in what I think are permanent servers, and I was wondering if there has been any changes in the policy about bots; both doomseeker and IDE support "bots are not players", so I don't really understand the problem that servers with even 64 bots cause -- do they use extra network traffic? How much extra?
I fully agree with this statement, and that was my whole reasoning behind Armada and Sentinel's Playground for having bots in the Gameservers. It is NOT to advertise the gameservers so they appear at the _top_ of the gameserver browser list from either IDE or Doomseeker or the like, but to help start a game going. In my past, I have experienced waiting in a gameserver for almost 30 minutes waiting for just someone to connect, but once someone does connect most of the time they will ragequit later on or the waiting game is just not worth it. Adding bots to the game shouldn't be a problem and shouldn't be treated as such as it is only a feature. The only way around this, is to modify the source code to where the bots count in the gameserver is never given or always set to zero.jwaffe wrote: In my opinion bots are a valuable engine feature for helping people start great DM games (so they can shoot something while they wait in an empty server for more players), and they should be available to server hosts.
Personally, I don't see a problem and I wouldn't mind if there was some exception to the rule, not _every_ host is going to do go out of their way and clutter the master server with superfluous gameservers.
From what I have heard from MiFU, which he asked The Toxic Avenger, even adding '1' bot - breaks the rules entirely. That is if I remember correctly.Ænima wrote: Huh? I'm pretty sure you're totally allowed to have bots in your own server. Just don't bloat a server with 64 bots just to get attention. People have done that before. :p
EDIT: Replied to AEnima
EDIT^2: Revision update
Last edited by mifu on Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
I thought it was just any bot in any gameserver, I might have miss understood.mifu wrote: I meant if I applied it to like 50 servers lol. I think it is fine, if it's one server or a small amount. If more then the amount i said, it will piss people off.
If you are still not allowed to host bots in your game server for whatever reason, just follow my suggestions above, that is unless something better comes across before you start editing the source directly. Also, support temporary bots in Zandronum, adjacent to what ZDaemon has currently implemented on their port.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Really? I thinked they were more cpu eater than cs 1.6 bots, at least I remember I couldn't play skulltag with more than 5 on a pentium 3 1GHz :s (vanilla dm)Tiger wrote:Additionally, the bots used in this engine does not really take extra bandwidth, but merely CPU cycles and additional RAM from the host system.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Am pretty sure the rule is about those stupid servers with 32 bots shown on top of server's list all time.
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Nothing to see here
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Nothing to see here
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
The rule applies to servers that host 31/32 bots in their server, which means that the server has no reason to exist except to float and hog bandwidth. If you're using a server with 10 bots, as long as the purpose involves gameplay, that's fine.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Understood, so it won't be a problem if I add one bot to the fastdm, Ultimate Doom DM, (increasing player count to 5 to compensate), Greenwar DM, and MSPD DM servers?
That's 5 servers with one bot each.
That's 5 servers with one bot each.
RE: Bots in permanent servers
That would probably be fine.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Having an Automatic Bot Adding/Removal system would be useful for those servers who just house 1 bot just to get things going, rather than hiding them all together.
You Join, a bot (or few) joins. 1-3 more players join, a bot (or few) leaves.
You Join, a bot (or few) joins. 1-3 more players join, a bot (or few) leaves.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
I made an (ALPHA) wad that did that a while ago if anybody's interested.
If 1 player joins an empty server, a bot joins the game
If more than one player is in the server, all bots leave
If no players are in the server, all bots leave.
http://www.ifocserv.net/ftp/Random/AutoBot_alpha1.pk3
If 1 player joins an empty server, a bot joins the game
If more than one player is in the server, all bots leave
If no players are in the server, all bots leave.
http://www.ifocserv.net/ftp/Random/AutoBot_alpha1.pk3
Last edited by jwaffe on Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Having bots is one thing, hosting Hellspawn Armada cluster is another.
I believe such servers should be master-ignored, since because of these servers' location people rarely play there and they just pollute the list:
Anyway, I heard Konar6 is working on temporary bots, i.e. like in ZD that only join after you've connected. That should fix the issue for legit bot usage and add freedom to master-ignore everyone abusing bots to advertise their servers.
I believe such servers should be master-ignored, since because of these servers' location people rarely play there and they just pollute the list:
Anyway, I heard Konar6 is working on temporary bots, i.e. like in ZD that only join after you've connected. That should fix the issue for legit bot usage and add freedom to master-ignore everyone abusing bots to advertise their servers.
Last edited by ZZYZX on Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
And yet you can filter out bots from the Player Sorting list in both IDE and DoomSeeker.....
Anyway, if you got a problem with it, come talk to us in #armada about it.
Anyway, if you got a problem with it, come talk to us in #armada about it.
Last edited by Dark-Assassin on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Circunei Z wrote: Having bots is one thing, hosting Hellspawn Armada cluster is another.
I believe such servers should be master-ignored, since because of these servers' location people rarely play there and they just pollute the list:
My opinion still has not changed. Additionally, Armada has its peak in activity. I no longer keep track of the game servers anymore, but the last time I worked on the Armada gameserver cluster, they were fairly active -- since you decided to complain about the gameserver general activity. Activity aside, my opinion as stated before - is not - about polluting the gameserver list, but allowing competitive games to easily start instead of - well, nothing at all. Furthermore, as already mentioned before, you can easily set your gameserver browser to not treat bots as players. With having that setting enabled, that pretty much solves your complaint.
RE: Bots in permanent servers
I'm not sure whether treating bots as players is off by default in all browsers, but in case it isn't (it wasn't in past, and not everyone uses the latest versions of programs), I can see the problem for users that don't know about such option and who are therefore forced to "filter" the bots with their own eyes only.
Anyway, if you genuinely don't want to spam the server list, but merely want to ease up starting games, here is what you all need.
I am able to provide Windows and Linux 32/64bit binaries on request.
Anyway, if you genuinely don't want to spam the server list, but merely want to ease up starting games, here is what you all need.
I am able to provide Windows and Linux 32/64bit binaries on request.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
You should submit that to the devs.
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
It kinda already is - Torr Samaho watches my fork, in fact he implemented my stuff before. Though I'm not sure if the code quality of this patch is on par with Zandronum's expectations.
Either way, my server patch works right now and is fully compatible with 1.2 clients.
Either way, my server patch works right now and is fully compatible with 1.2 clients.
Ijon Tichy wrote:I like how your first responses to concerns being raised was to start insulting people, accusing random people on the Internet of being Shadowfox, and digging up irrelevant shit from the past. It really inspires confidence in me that you guys are level-headed and rational folks.
<BlueCool> you guys IQ is the same as my IP, Dynamic
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RE: Bots in permanent servers
Very nice work, Konar6! By chance, how does your implementation fairs with the NoBotNodes declared in the (Z)MAPINFO lump and SkullTag's Campaign lump?
RE: Bots in permanent servers
That functionality is unchanged. If bot nodes are disabled in mapinfo, no bots will be available.
Ijon Tichy wrote:I like how your first responses to concerns being raised was to start insulting people, accusing random people on the Internet of being Shadowfox, and digging up irrelevant shit from the past. It really inspires confidence in me that you guys are level-headed and rational folks.
<BlueCool> you guys IQ is the same as my IP, Dynamic