MantisBT - Zandronum
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0003721Zandronum[All Projects] Suggestionpublic2019-10-06 16:292019-10-14 08:26
Filystea 
 
highfeaturealways
newreopened 
4.0-beta 
 
0003721: General problem of lack of popularity of zandronum and doom in general.

Seems zandronum is not very well known.
In general if someone knows about *modern* ( hate this word ) doom,
they will talk about zdoom or doomworld.
Both mostly tied to single player.
While zdoom is needed since as I was told it was decided zandronum will be tied to it. it's popularity is not needed. It should not be more popular since single player has no advantage above multiplayer. Doomworld is complete cancer and it would be best if it simply died. But fuck it.

Now to main point. there is no advertisement. No talk. Nothing. People won't come if they don't know you exist.
I think it's better if zandronum will be very popular even with extremely bad reputation than simply not known.

The last sentence is in gasp of hand in my opinion. It's possible with an effort of 2-3 years.
open your eyes.
No tags attached.
Issue History
2019-10-06 16:29FilysteaNew Issue
2019-10-06 16:51AOSPStatusnew => closed
2019-10-06 16:51AOSPResolutionopen => invalid
2019-10-06 18:31FilysteaNote Added: 0021057
2019-10-06 18:31FilysteaStatusclosed => feedback
2019-10-06 18:31FilysteaResolutioninvalid => reopened
2019-10-07 06:19eagleNote Added: 0021058
2019-10-07 07:29eagleNote Edited: 0021058bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=21058#r12878
2019-10-07 18:09WubTheCaptainNote Added: 0021059
2019-10-07 18:21WubTheCaptainNote Added: 0021060
2019-10-07 19:58FilysteaNote Added: 0021061
2019-10-07 19:58FilysteaStatusfeedback => new
2019-10-08 06:04WubTheCaptainNote Added: 0021062
2019-10-08 14:00FusedNote Added: 0021063
2019-10-08 14:03FusedNote Edited: 0021063bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=21063#r12880
2019-10-08 14:04FusedNote Edited: 0021063bug_revision_view_page.php?bugnote_id=21063#r12881
2019-10-08 14:43AOSPNote Added: 0021064
2019-10-08 14:43AOSPStatusnew => closed
2019-10-08 14:43AOSPResolutionreopened => invalid
2019-10-08 16:31FilysteaNote Added: 0021065
2019-10-08 16:31FilysteaStatusclosed => feedback
2019-10-08 16:31FilysteaResolutioninvalid => reopened
2019-10-08 18:11FilysteaNote Added: 0021066
2019-10-08 18:11FilysteaStatusfeedback => new
2019-10-10 18:06IvanNote Added: 0021067
2019-10-13 06:22FilysteaNote Added: 0021068
2019-10-14 08:26IvanNote Added: 0021071

Notes
(0021057)
Filystea   
2019-10-06 18:31   
Don't close.
It is a deep problem of this community. next thing will be samaho stepping down and zero development. No new blood nothing.
(0021058)
eagle   
2019-10-07 06:19   
(edited on: 2019-10-07 07:29)
community has degraded, shit talk and gnawing around, adequate developers have left the project, active admins are engaged in banning and blacklisting people and servers. everything goes to hell.

(0021059)
WubTheCaptain   
2019-10-07 18:09   
AOSP, don't close without notes. Thanks.
(0021060)
WubTheCaptain   
2019-10-07 18:21   
Quote
Seems zandronum is not very well known.

Quote
Now to main point. there is no advertisement. No talk. Nothing. People won't come if they don't know you exist.

Retention rates may also play a role. I have friends who know Zandronum, but they just don't stick around. They played few games with me and dropped out.
Reasons may include:
  • Player dissatisfaction in master server bans (both eagle's friend and Filystea, AFAIK) and the non-developer community
  • Lack of (active) developer community, specifically in Zandronum (while SRB2 may have it)
  • Old GZDoom engine version with bugs
  • The game is just old enough that people have lost interest, like other older games from id Software

So why do people leave? It's something we may not understand well enough, in the short few years I've seen.
People that do play still often have lower-end computers, from what I've heard in chats on Doom 2 game servers.
(0021061)
Filystea   
2019-10-07 19:58   
One reason is. Somehow a lot of mods ( with huge work ) tend to get completely overlooked. We have some popular top mods not going to discuss good or bad. And rest is just forgoten. There is very little work done to collect them and have it sorted. In the end we have complete mess.

Open master server imho does not play any role in dissatisfaction here. Thou it does literally nothing good being open with ip's and can cause harm but this is master server administration problem not my.

Zdoom must stay so discussing it has no sens. If zandronum had strong developer team maybe they could drop it.

I had my mates play doom, one of them said he very rarely plays it on his own,

"The game is just old enough that people have lost interest, like other older games from id Software" Finally this -> no the problem is the new player will probably end up playing some crappy shitty mods. And also won't see huge advantages. Like hundreds of wads to play, maps. Possible mods - good mods modifications. indie games are usually shitty graphic but good game play. Doom has it.

Honestly why I somehow stopped a bit doing my mod for doom is because literally all zandronum tickets get ignored now. They are supposed to meet up every week to have a talk and so what. Nothing comes out of it.

But really the advertisement is the biggest problem. to show where to look to check out doom and show the possibilities. I think most people get discouraged by the general chaos and mess.
(0021062)
WubTheCaptain   
2019-10-08 06:04   
Doomworld and its Cacowards are still a thing. Doomworld forums in particular seem to have daily activity; the front page lists many subforums with posts from "minutes ago".
If people "end up playing some crappy shitty mods", whose fault is it? Is it an issue in Zandronum, the community interaction, the WADs themselves, availability of servers, or Doomseeker?
I'll tell you my three biggest reasons for lack of desire to mod for Zandronum:
  1. The lack of engine features available in latest GZDoom, particularly portals (akin to Antichamber). I can tolerate with hacks like 3D floors to workaround engine limitations, though they also don't always play smoothly with portals (players getting briefly stuck, lighting not working properly on the other side of the portal, etc).
  2. Copyright: the (un)availability of large amounts of free art & code, and more importantly developer collaboration under free licenses (Freedoom is the closest one and not finished), in a community environment that has accepted to itself ripping stuff from non-free and unauthorized sources liberally.
  3. SLADE's degrading performance and sometimes crashing, the only WAD/PK3 and map editor on GNU/Linux.

Add a fourth reason to this: It's hard for Europeans like me to get into communities and commit with my personal data to them, without clear privacy statements and data protections. In a way, this also applies to server operators and possibly gameserver hosting providers.
I can't help much with Zandronum's engine programming, unfortunately.
(0021063)
Fused   
2019-10-08 14:00   
(edited on: 2019-10-08 14:04)
Zandronum isn't popular because its not relevant at all. The devs chose to stick to zdoom, and it is one of the reasons this engine is years behind on features. People want new features and Zdoom now supplies it to them. If you don't get new features you will be just another old port like Odamex.

This is still a project which developers volunteer to maintain, but if you give yourself such a big problem of maintining connection with Zdoom, you lose motivation quickly. And you really don't want to bother spending free time on something you're not forced to maintain. I certainly wouln't.

I said it before and I'll say it again, cut this connection with Zdoom. Or just keep this up and Zdoom will eventually have proper client/server netcode, meaning Zandronum will be truly dead.

I already lost my motivation to develop anything for a port that doesn't want to develop itself, but I still come on rarely to see if a sensible answer was finally announced. But until then, I expect no improvement in anything, really.

(0021064)
AOSP   
2019-10-08 14:43   
This issue is not fitting for the tracker. The tracker is for issues with the Zandronum source port itself, not the community. Issues with the community should be discussed on the forum, where the community actually dwells.

I'm closing this ticket as invalid again. Go discuss this issue where it's actually appropriate.
(0021065)
Filystea   
2019-10-08 16:31   
I am not done. Stop closing it. This is very big issue. Since it has impact on port development.
(0021066)
Filystea   
2019-10-08 18:11   
Ok slowly, this will be very long.

First about mods. There are good mods. But there are also bad mods. It's not bad that there are bad ones. But there is big mess. And new player coming is not guided to check out the good ones. He has high chance to get discouraged.

problems with mods:
-there are old bugs in most functions, not only in zandronum but also in zdoom. Zdoom sometimes fixes fast but sometimes they will say that it's old and mods can depend on the bug. This is sick and completely puts me off. I am punished becuase some idiot decided he will use the bug as default game behavior.
-zandronum has even more bugs and the fixing them like never happens most times.
-reporting is sick ( i need to actually report the bug in two places ).

What I think about what Wub said:
You can make good mod with only features Zandronum has. Or you could if they would work. But it seems most stuff is never tested not only on zandronum but also on zdoom. We pay price for this.
When it comes to credits I go with fuck them but if you want to credit stuff in doom you will lose lots of time on tbh something usless.
Slades works fine on linux. it crashes thou sometimes - yes. But it does not affect so much modding.
And last wub modding sentance about privacy. No idea what you mena you do not need to mod under your name.
I just wrote in my mod that Filystyn made it.

Later on i will write my answer to what Fused said.
(0021067)
Ivan   
2019-10-10 18:06   
Discuss this in the forums where there's a higher chance a broader audience will see this. You're literally doing the opposite of your goal here.
(0021068)
Filystea   
2019-10-13 06:22   
Fist thing, I am banned on forums so not going to make account per post to say something and get banned. Not happening asshats.

Going back to what Fused said:
"Zandronum isn't popular because its not relevant at all. The devs chose to stick to zdoom, and it is one of the reasons this engine is years behind on features."

Features is one thing but the problem is features do not get tested. As I said lot's of decorate functions are broken in zdoom and in zandronum. It puts off mod developers.

" People want new features and Zdoom now supplies it to them. If you don't get new features you will be just another old port like Odamex."

Still not about features - yeah important but. You can't just add things without thinking how to make them work properly and easy to *add new things to them*.
The worst thing is that there is nearly zero development like nothing happens from year now I guess.

"This is still a project which developers volunteer to maintain, but if you give yourself such a big problem of maintining connection with Zdoom, you lose motivation quickly. And you really don't want to bother spending free time on something you're not forced to maintain. I certainly wouln't."

Yeah i guess this is true. Second thing you are kind of force to accept what ever fucked up decision zdoom decides to put in it's code.

I said it before and I'll say it again, cut this connection with Zdoom. Or just keep this up and Zdoom will eventually have proper client/server netcode, meaning Zandronum will be truly dead.

I was told here no because there is not much developers to do that. I thought recently that the best thing could be done someone would fork zandronum code, move it to git and would let people help him. I can code in C and I am quite good at it so could give a hand but never to zandronum. And also I am 100% they would never want my help ;-) ( too many quarrels in the past + my bad reputation ).

"I already lost my motivation to develop anything for a port that doesn't want to develop itself,"

If you are talking about moding - same here,

"but I still come on rarely to see if a sensible answer was finally announced. But until then, I expect no improvement in anything, really."

huehue - k baby.
(0021071)
Ivan   
2019-10-14 08:26   
No wonder you got banned from the forums.