Complex Master Of Puppets

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
User avatar
Monsterovich
Forum Regular
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:46 pm

Complex Master Of Puppets

#1

Post by Monsterovich » Mon May 18, 2015 9:51 pm

Image
Remember that Master of Puppets mod where you controlled monsters? This unofficial modification for Complex Doom can make you can feel what it's like to be a Complex Doom monster! Also, this mod fixes all the bugs in original Master of Puppets by replacing all the code.


Mod cvars:

Code: Select all

mop_pistolstart - sets pistol start mode: (default 0)
0 - carry weapons and ammo from the previous level
1 - take away all weapons and ammo and give pistol
2 - take away all weapons and ammo and give shotgun

mop_noautoconfig (default 0)
0 - autoconfigure some server cvars for best gameplay (no f12, no coop info, no suicide, etc...)
1 - don't change any server cvars unless absoultely needed, only use this when you know what you're doing

mop_showicons (clientside cvar, default 1) 
0 - do not show icons on the screen
1 - show icons (they will appear on the next hud update)

mop_livescalingpercentage (default 100)
determines how many lives marines should have on the every map (in percents).

mop_extralivepoints (default 100, 0 to disable)
allows marines to get more lives for killing puppet masters. For example: 50 points is a 50 / 100 = 0.5 of real monster difficulty that marines need to reach. Killing five shotgun zombies (every has 0.1) with that value will give marines one more life.

mop_respawnprotection (default 5)
makes marines invincible for n seconds on every respawn

mop_possfrags_bosses (default 3, -1 to disable bosses, 0 to allow boss controlling anytime)
determines the amount of puppet master frags required for using bosses (cyberdemons, masterminds)

Screenshots:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

Download!:
Normal edition (for Doom maps only):
http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... 5d2-r1.pk3
http://static.[bad site]/wads/comple ... c2-r12.pk3

Boom edition (for all maps, fixes non-working switches on Boom maps but has worse exit scripts than normal edition):
http://www.[bad site]/download?file= ... upport.pk3
http://static.[bad site]/wads/comple ... upport.pk3


We are working here:
https://github.com/Korshun/complexmop
Last edited by Monsterovich on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fr blood
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 973
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: France

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#2

Post by fr blood » Tue May 19, 2015 8:13 am

Good luck with that mode, a very good idea.
ImageImage

User avatar
Daedalus
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:25 am
Location: UK

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#3

Post by Daedalus » Tue May 19, 2015 8:45 am

Fun idea, good luck with the balancing though.

Vanilla MoP was terribly balanced as standard, can't see it working too well with CD but again, good luck!

N30N
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:18 am
Location: Lithuania

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#4

Post by N30N » Tue May 19, 2015 12:31 pm

This is actually pretty fun, and suprisingly it seems balanced somehow...

(Though i haven't tried marine yet so that might be the reason. :P)
Ką?

User avatar
-Jes-
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Void Zone

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#5

Post by -Jes- » Tue May 19, 2015 1:35 pm

Cacodemon wrote:Vanilla MoP was terribly balanced as standard
And yet, as stupid easy it was to be marine, you'd always people going 'omg nerf monsters'.

User avatar
Monsterovich
Forum Regular
Posts: 342
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:46 pm

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#6

Post by Monsterovich » Tue May 19, 2015 4:44 pm

-Jes- wrote:
Cacodemon wrote:Vanilla MoP was terribly balanced as standard
And yet, as stupid easy it was to be marine, you'd always people going 'omg nerf monsters'.
Original MoP gameplay was like:

Code: Select all

if (MarinesGotBFG)
    MarinesWin();
else
    PuppetsWin();
Last edited by Monsterovich on Tue May 19, 2015 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

N30N
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:18 am
Location: Lithuania

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#7

Post by N30N » Wed May 20, 2015 12:20 pm

MOP's balance:

Make everything overpowered,
that way everything will balance itself!
Ką?

Untitled
Forum Regular
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: it is a mystery

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#8

Post by Untitled » Wed May 20, 2015 12:41 pm

Monsterovich wrote:
-Jes- wrote:
Cacodemon wrote:Vanilla MoP was terribly balanced as standard
And yet, as stupid easy it was to be marine, you'd always people going 'omg nerf monsters'.
This is probably because:
-There's Marine Friendly Fire (big wtf for me here - there's no marine friendly fire on any survival server I know of period).
-One bad marine could cost you a disproportionate amount of lives.
-There's no Monster Friendly Fire (Actually this was my big wtf - why the hell is there no monster friendly fire when, you know, Monster Infighting exists).
-If a map has both a teleporter and a Cyberdemon, then the teleport will be spawn-camped, which will almost always be at least a few marines lost right there.
-Can't confirm, but I'm pretty sure Abaddons and Cacolanterns are way worse than ordinary Cacodemons.

Basically, what you've done is give the monsters a huge buff, both in monster types AND in monster AI (since players generally smarter than monsters), and gave the marines...almost nothing. We're almost no more powerful than in ordinary Survival servers.
Last edited by Untitled on Wed May 20, 2015 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm in despair! The fact someone would give me the title 'Forum Regular' has left me in despair!"
Spoiler: Me in a nutshell (Open)
<Untitled> this is a terrible idea
<Untitled> lets do it anyway

<Untitled> Depends
<Untitled> What kind of wad error is "Address not Mapped to Object (Signal 11)"?

<Untitled> So today I found out that stupidity is nested fractally
<Untitled> There is no lower bound
Projects:
SamsaraHold http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3053

HexaDoken
Forum Regular
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:27 am
Location: Void. Russian Void.

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#9

Post by HexaDoken » Wed May 20, 2015 1:04 pm

Untitled wrote: -There's Marine Friendly Fire (big wtf for me here - there's no marine friendly fire on any survival server I know of period).
This is because of an implementation difficulty. MoP works via morphs primarily, if my memory serves me right - this means that every player-controlled monster is essentially counted a player by the game engine. This means that if teamdamage was off, marines do no damage to player-controlled monsters, and vice versa. You could simulate teamdamage immunity with damagetypes but that creates another problem - if marines were immune to their own rockets... they would be immune to their own rockets, being able to fire point-blank and get nothing. The choice was between players being unable to do any teamdamage normally but able to kill each other with rockets - or to just force teamdamage on whenever.

That being said, I've no real idea why monsters don't get teamdamage. Anti-griefing? Maybe?
Untitled wrote: -One bad marine could cost you a disproportionate amount of lives.
Do per-player live system, perhaps with a possibility of donating lives to other players. Sort of like Stronghold but a little differently implemented code-wise.
Untitled wrote:-If a map has both a teleporter and a Cyberdemon, then the teleport will be spawn-camped, which will almost always be at least a few marines lost right there.
...Make players invincible for a short time after teleporting...? I'm hazy on how exactly this will work and what wonderful complications it could raise, but this could possibly shut down a lot of tele-camp strategies.
Untitled wrote:Basically, what you've done is give the monsters a huge buff, both in monster types AND in monster AI (since players generally smarter than monsters), and gave the marines...almost nothing. We're almost no more powerful than in ordinary Survival servers.
Wrong. In MoP, it's not uncommon to see above 50 life pool. In ordinary survival, marines generally have an absolutely glorious life amount of exactly 1 per player. This is kind of a difference.

User avatar
-Jes-
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Void Zone

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#10

Post by -Jes- » Wed May 20, 2015 2:08 pm

Not to mention that said marine teamdamage, at least in the last jmod version, was roughly at a meager 10-20%!
Monster teamdamage was still partially there, as cyberdemons could hurt anyone, and anyone else could still hurt ai monsters. And given how there was no way to tell between ai and players, yeah..

Don't forget that practically anything spammable on the monster side was given overheating functionality, and that player handling the archvile was (again in jmod) nerfed into fucking oblivion!

Oh, and repeat teamkiller marines lost their best weapons PERMANENTLY, and if they continued despite that, they turned into helpless pigs that AWARDED LIVES WHEN KILLED BY FELLOW MARINES!

And no, the higher tier cacos weren't worse.
Last edited by -Jes- on Wed May 20, 2015 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Untitled
Forum Regular
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: it is a mystery

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#11

Post by Untitled » Wed May 20, 2015 8:58 pm

-Jes- wrote: Not to mention that said marine teamdamage, at least in the last jmod version, was roughly at a meager 10-20%!
Monster teamdamage was still partially there, as cyberdemons could hurt anyone, and anyone else could still hurt ai monsters. And given how there was no way to tell between ai and players, yeah..
Admittedly, I wasn't being perfectly clear - I was thinking about why players feel as if this mod is in the monster's favor - it feels that way, but I'm not saying it is.

I've learned that mods can be balanced while feeling unbalanced, and that mods can be unbalanced while feeling balanced.
-Jes- wrote: Don't forget that practically anything spammable on the monster side was given overheating functionality, and that player handling the archvile was (again in jmod) nerfed into fucking oblivion!
I didn't say spam was the problem - I said that teleports are - in teleports, you are exactly in one spot - as long as the players don't enter at a frequent enough rate to overheat (which isn't terribly common unless the teleport is right at the start), you can camp the marines as they teleport in, since one rocket can kill.
-Jes- wrote: Oh, and repeat teamkiller marines lost their best weapons PERMANENTLY, and if they continued despite that, they turned into helpless pigs that AWARDED LIVES WHEN KILLED BY FELLOW MARINES!
I'm not talking about teamkilling - that's a thing, but the main issue is that one bad player could cost, say, out of a lifepool of, say, 35 marines, if he dies because he's bad, can cost 15 of those marines.

Monsters can't get ruined by a single bad player in the same way.
-Jes- wrote: And no, the higher tier cacos weren't worse.
I'd say a cacodemon-tier monster with 1200 health and a fireball that both travels faster and does more damage is significantly worse than a cacodemon with 400 health - especially if, say, it's a tyson-styled map.

Actually, tyson-style maps just generally suck for marines - player-controlled pinkies are much MUCH harder to get in melee with than ordinary monsters.
"I'm in despair! The fact someone would give me the title 'Forum Regular' has left me in despair!"
Spoiler: Me in a nutshell (Open)
<Untitled> this is a terrible idea
<Untitled> lets do it anyway

<Untitled> Depends
<Untitled> What kind of wad error is "Address not Mapped to Object (Signal 11)"?

<Untitled> So today I found out that stupidity is nested fractally
<Untitled> There is no lower bound
Projects:
SamsaraHold http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3053

User avatar
-Jes-
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Void Zone

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#12

Post by -Jes- » Wed May 20, 2015 10:26 pm

Untitled wrote: I didn't say spam was the problem - I said that teleports are - in teleports, you are exactly in one spot - as long as the players don't enter at a frequent enough rate to overheat (which isn't terribly common unless the teleport is right at the start), you can camp the marines as they teleport in, since one rocket can kill.
Except far from all maps use teleporters the same way or to the same effect, and simply DETECTING teleportation through ACS is hardly an easy and flawless act in the first place.

While cybs being playable wasn't exactly perfect (in fact it was horribly flawed), it was nevertheless what people - yes, marines too - wanted. The only real 'fix' for this issue would be a dedicated mapset. Several were announced, none were made.
Untitled wrote: I'm not talking about teamkilling - that's a thing, but the main issue is that one bad player could cost, say, out of a lifepool of, say, 35 marines, if he dies because he's bad, can cost 15 of those marines.
Monsters can't get ruined by a single bad player in the same way.
Wrong. Any w+m1 noob can completely throw a map in favor of marines (and people often TROLLED by doing just that) typically by moving monsters out of their best position (fatsos out in open, vile in close range OR IN FRONT OF CYBS, barons singlefiling through doors).
Traps that were often meant to be hard could easily be empty by the time some SSG-feeding idiot had deprived the trap of all it's natural resources.

Nevermind the dozen times some noob hops into a cyberdemon and then completely fails at that little thing called prediction - free kill marines, come and get it. There's no such thing as balancing a mod around 'being bad'. Only making everything suck.
Untitled wrote:I'd say a cacodemon-tier monster with 1200 health and a fireball that both travels faster and does more damage is significantly worse than a cacodemon with 400 health - especially if, say, it's a tyson-styled map.
While I agree the health hike was entirely undeserving, the fast projectile was the higher tier caco's only saving grace. The regular caco? As ZDW puts it, "meatshield". And guess who wants to play one of those...

The only really 'OP' high tiers around were the hectebus, SSG guy,d ouble chaingunner and the imp shade thing.
The first couldn't be nerfed without making it exactly the same as fatso in the first place (and removing it, like removing all functionality from everything ever, is recipe for disappointment), the second was broken PRO-MARINE for most of it's existence and then nerfed several times, the third was given a harsh overheat functionality, and the last was kept by a narrow vote.
Untitled wrote:Actually, tyson-style maps just generally suck for marines
Stop playing MoP with tyson maps then. They do not fit with the rest of doom's pacing, never have, never will.

And pinkies were already worthless against anyone with an SSG or better. (Vulcan anyone? btw Monsterovich you forgot that one in your IF. And the grenade alt. And the railgun. And the 10k.)

In the end, the only real way to balance MoP is to make monsters unplayable.
Last edited by -Jes- on Wed May 20, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Untitled
Forum Regular
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: it is a mystery

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#13

Post by Untitled » Wed May 20, 2015 10:55 pm

-Jes- wrote:
Untitled wrote: I'm not talking about teamkilling - that's a thing, but the main issue is that one bad player could cost, say, out of a lifepool of, say, 35 marines, if he dies because he's bad, can cost 15 of those marines.
Monsters can't get ruined by a single bad player in the same way.
Wrong. Any w+m1 noob can completely throw a map in favor of marines (and people often TROLLED by doing just that) typically by moving monsters out of their best position (fatsos out in open, vile in close range OR IN FRONT OF CYBS, barons singlefiling through doors).
Traps that were often meant to be hard could easily be empty by the time some SSG-feeding idiot had deprived the trap of all it's natural resources.
Yes, but that's much less likely to be done accidentally - and if someone is deliberately doing that, it's considered good nature to start a kick vote.

Or, picture it this way: Deliberately throwing your team to defeat is a punishable offense for many games. Bad playing is not, and bad puppets are much less bad for the team than bad marines are.
-Jes- wrote: Nevermind the dozen times some noob hops into a cyberdemon and then completely fails at that little thing called prediction - free kill marines, come and get it. There's no such thing as balancing a mod around 'being bad'. Only making everything suck.
Yes, but the thing is that Cyberdemon probably wasn't going to predict players if it wasn't being control anyway - even a bad player is better than the monster AI, because at least it's not as predictable.

But really, any of the issues come down to this:

If both sides play reasonably well, the game tends to balance out nicely.

If both sides play badly, puppets win.

But, honestly, I'm not going to argue with you further on balance; as it is your mod, and really, I'm kind of an annoying nitpicker in many respects. I'd rather not continue this line of thought, and I'd rather just end it peacefully here.

So, on an unrelated note, I thought of something that may be cool:
A system to make it so that rather than the puppets just arbitrarily winning if the marine count hits zero, I think it would be really cool if the game disallows players from further spawning - turns them into a ghost or something, only truly losing when every marine is dead. This way, at the very least, the last couple players can go on one last epic rampage if they're good at not dying - rather than "whoops somebody else died you lose". I personally really like games where a few good players can carry a bad team - if only because I'm one of the bad ones, usually. Plus, it means that defeat for the marines feels a lot less arbitrary - you actually see every marine die, rather than "you lose despite there still being marines out".
Last edited by Untitled on Wed May 20, 2015 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm in despair! The fact someone would give me the title 'Forum Regular' has left me in despair!"
Spoiler: Me in a nutshell (Open)
<Untitled> this is a terrible idea
<Untitled> lets do it anyway

<Untitled> Depends
<Untitled> What kind of wad error is "Address not Mapped to Object (Signal 11)"?

<Untitled> So today I found out that stupidity is nested fractally
<Untitled> There is no lower bound
Projects:
SamsaraHold http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3053

User avatar
TehRealSalt
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:13 pm

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#14

Post by TehRealSalt » Wed May 20, 2015 11:37 pm

Untitled wrote:So, on an unrelated note, I thought of something that may be cool:
A system to make it so that rather than the puppets just arbitrarily winning if the marine count hits zero, I think it would be really cool if the game disallows players from further spawning - turns them into a ghost or something, only truly losing when every marine is dead. This way, at the very least, the last couple players can go on one last epic rampage if they're good at not dying - rather than "whoops somebody else died you lose". I personally really like games where a few good players can carry a bad team - if only because I'm one of the bad ones, usually. Plus, it means that defeat for the marines feels a lot less arbitrary - you actually see every marine die, rather than "you lose despite there still being marines out".
This. I'm not sure if it would solve everything, but I'm thinking this might solve a couple of the problems with Marines.
[quote=Private IRC Dialog]<ExtremeBurrito> eat gas homo[/quote]

User avatar
-Jes-
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Void Zone

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#15

Post by -Jes- » Thu May 21, 2015 3:10 am

With the (relatively) new numlives functions in ACS, you could probably make a system that evenly (or unevenly if you prefer) distributes the lives among the various players.

Of course this comes with it's own can of worms...

User avatar
ForrestMarkX
Forum Regular
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:04 am
Location: Texas

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#16

Post by ForrestMarkX » Thu May 21, 2015 6:01 am

TehRealSalt wrote:
Untitled wrote:So, on an unrelated note, I thought of something that may be cool:
A system to make it so that rather than the puppets just arbitrarily winning if the marine count hits zero, I think it would be really cool if the game disallows players from further spawning - turns them into a ghost or something, only truly losing when every marine is dead. This way, at the very least, the last couple players can go on one last epic rampage if they're good at not dying - rather than "whoops somebody else died you lose". I personally really like games where a few good players can carry a bad team - if only because I'm one of the bad ones, usually. Plus, it means that defeat for the marines feels a lot less arbitrary - you actually see every marine die, rather than "you lose despite there still being marines out".
This. I'm not sure if it would solve everything, but I'm thinking this might solve a couple of the problems with Marines.
A neat way this could be done is a script that checks how many marine lives are left and have the gamemode set to survival with 1 life, if the marines lives are not 0 force the lives to stay at 1 life until it's 0 then allow them to die normaly
Image[url=steam://friends/add/'.76561197997881512.']Image[/url]

User avatar
fr blood
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 973
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: France

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#17

Post by fr blood » Thu May 21, 2015 10:31 am

Sorry to say that, but for me a complex doom with 90+ lives isn't complex doom, whatever the amount of monster is, there shall be a limit of lifes, in complex doom current servers we go 1 ONLY 1, and here 90+ for some maps ? Huh ?

EDIT: and don't say that it wouldn't be balanced, just play as puppet, and wait for marines to have some QSG/Demon Tech Rifle, and you'll see if they are complaining.
Last edited by fr blood on Thu May 21, 2015 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
ImageImage

Untitled
Forum Regular
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:41 pm
Location: it is a mystery

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#18

Post by Untitled » Thu May 21, 2015 3:19 pm

fr blood wrote: Sorry to say that, but for me a complex doom with 90+ lives isn't complex doom, whatever the amount of monster is, there shall be a limit of lifes, in complex doom current servers we go 1 ONLY 1, and here 90+ for some maps ? Huh ?

EDIT: and don't say that it wouldn't be balanced, just play as puppet, and wait for marines to have some QSG/Demon Tech Rifle, and you'll see if they are complaining.
wat

It's not 90 lives for each player - it's 90 lives as a shared pool between players.

The life scaling is a good thing - it means that puppet masters can actually lose easy maps, and that they don't win every hard map.

puppet masters would literally win every round on remotely difficult maps, and win every round where there's only 4-6 players.

Hell, on hard maps puppet masters would win by AFKing
Last edited by Untitled on Thu May 21, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm in despair! The fact someone would give me the title 'Forum Regular' has left me in despair!"
Spoiler: Me in a nutshell (Open)
<Untitled> this is a terrible idea
<Untitled> lets do it anyway

<Untitled> Depends
<Untitled> What kind of wad error is "Address not Mapped to Object (Signal 11)"?

<Untitled> So today I found out that stupidity is nested fractally
<Untitled> There is no lower bound
Projects:
SamsaraHold http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3053

HexaDoken
Forum Regular
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:27 am
Location: Void. Russian Void.

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#19

Post by HexaDoken » Thu May 21, 2015 6:23 pm

I like how people fail to understand the balance equation of mop from both sides now.

Keep in mind that while you do have a staggeringly larger amount of lives to deal with the map now, this is greatly offset by the fact that the monster side now has an actual mastermind behind it and thus is not a mindless horde of pushovers awkwardly trying to gut you, but a semblance of a somewhat well coordinated army with several individual monsters popping out every so often that are perfectly capable of soloing players.

Well, in theory, at least. If puppeteers are not idiots, that is.

User avatar
-Jes-
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Posts: 972
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 am
Location: Void Zone

RE: Complex Master Of Puppets

#20

Post by -Jes- » Thu May 21, 2015 8:19 pm

HexaDoken wrote:If puppeteers are not idiots, that is.
And thus we come to the crux of balancing a mod like this. Granted, while the additional weapons, levelling system and higher tier randomized monsters of original mop only created more problems than they solved, the simple fact is that in order to not be a complete detriment to either side, the players have to actually be even remotely competent.

If any of you have set foot in a regular survival or coop server these past few years (especially the ones such as complex and rga2), you'll see that even in the doom community, that's a pipedream.

And while I am optimistic that Monsterovich is up to the task of 'balancing' this crazy ass mod concept, I just can't help the feeling that Complex's already tenuous balance is more than the concept can handle.

Post Reply