[split] I'm Out

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Metal
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[split] I'm Out

#1

Post by Metal » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:27 am

ibm5155 wrote: I bet one cookie the next one will be infurnus :lol:

ok now being serious, why many people're going out from their positions? :O
slowly doom is dying
Just for transparency, I'll go ahead and just let the cat out of the bag. I won't mention any names and make this as limited as possible. Person A went to B and complained about staff. Person B really has not much to do with staff so agreed with person A to do something about it, without hearing the other side of the story. Person A and B apparently come into contact with C, D, E and F behind the staffs back and made all kinds of plans and never made any attempt to go to any staff members with their problems. Staff members blind sided by weird out of the blue requests that haven't been mentioned in a long time, while instead of person A trying to meet with staff in the first place, staff had to find out from person F about it all.

Confusing? It's not really. It's a circle jerk back there, you don't want to be a part of it. More coming soon to a Zantheatre near you!

Edit: There's more to it, but will not go into further detail until everything is ironed out.
Last edited by Metal on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: I'm Out

#2

Post by Dusk » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:20 pm

Metal wrote: I won't mention any names and make this as limited as possible. Person A went to B and complained about staff. Person B really has not much to do with staff so agreed with person A to do something about it, without hearing the other side of the story. Person A and B apparently come into contact with C, D, E and F behind the staffs back and made all kinds of plans and never made any attempt to go to any staff members with their problems. Staff members blind sided by weird out of the blue requests that haven't been mentioned in a long time, while instead of person A trying to meet with staff in the first place, staff had to find out from person F about it all.
Alright. I was just fine with being diplomatic with you over the discussions and all, yet after everything you go out of the way to denigrate us? Well, dear community, let me share the actual story, in the fullest of all forms, right here:

There's no "Person A" here, instead it was the three of us who contacted Torr initially about our concerns. These are not new concerns, you and your staff had been behaving inconsistently judgement appeared to be based on personal vendettas and emotions and whatnot instead of attempting to be objective or, hell, open to both sides of any story given. And I would like to emphatize that all we did was voice concerns, we did not blackmail or threaten anyone. We did not do anything against the rules or anything to harm anyone for that matter. Unless disagreeing is considered a bad thing.

Not only that but you did not seem to exactly be on top of your issues either. Not able to warn people because "you could not find the warn button". Unable to keep some cheater banned because you were too lazy to whitelist people who were caught in range or getting around it somehow. Konar6 had this neat system for whitelisting people for the longest of times and you never thought of implementing it for the masterserver whitelist? Or the countless of times there was some troublemaker in #zandronum and you were debating in #stmods what the fuck to do about for half an hour before coming to the slightest of actions. Or making threads and threads worth of clearly cut rules (when in fact common sense covers by far most of these rules) which were not even being applied consistently, so you get the worst of both worlds, strict, subjectively applied rules. Or going about demoting/removing your staff without any prior discussion and instating members like WaTaKiD without anyone even having the slightest clue that he even was made staff in the first place. It did not exactly seem like your team was rolling around very smoothy. No offense to WaTaKiD, I think he's got great potential to be an excellent masterserver admin.

As a result of this all was a massive rift between staff and community which kind of left both sides feeling bitter towards each other and assuming the worst of each other. "it's always some mxu or a3 conspiracy". Does that sound familiar? Or the other side accusing staff of covering spak's ass up when they were causing shitstorms around here. I'm still not certain this was not the case, either. And it seemed infurnus was caught in this as well despite actively trying to make things better. Not to mention the fact that you appeared to catch backlash no matter what you did? While it's no lie that trying to change things always will piss someone off, I have no doubt a lot of conflicts were caused by this painful separation between the staff and community. I think I discussed about this #stmods at one point and gave some ideas to ease things up, but to no avail. And this dissonance is why I figured to stop coming to #stmods and also why HeavenWraith resigned and his thread subsequently caught Torr Samaho's attention.

So we all met in private to discuss things and while doing so, yes, we did try to come up with a properly working system for staff to work with. No, we were not demanding anything, we were thinking about suggestions about how to improve things with staff considering you were struggling with community PR like that (note the rift I already mentioned). Torr came up with that separation of powers idea and he figured to post it on the staff forums. Personally, I thought the system was unnecessarily complex. A properly structured and communicating staff team would easily be able to deal with whatever without needing any complex setups. As for "him never hearing the other side of the story", we had enough logs to clearly state the issue exactly how it was. So he got both sides of the story at the same time.

Over time we also discussed with Vicious Pariah and Wartorn (who are the very hosts and thus still staff) and eventually figured to bring our concerns to infurnus, which we did, in fact, so don't go around spreading FUD that we did not talk to any staff members, as a matter of fact we talked with one of the very administrators. During our meet-up, infurnus contacted you about our concerns, I'm not sure exactly what he said but then all of the sudden you resign and, well, better off that way. So we meet up with the rest of #stmods to discuss things further, essentially ditch the separation of powers idea and come up with the current leadership idea. Ruin and Qent were not present to the meeting simply because they were not around at the time and everybody else was. Which brings us to the present day.

So yes, very shady business indeed. Yes, we did discuss in private (because well, this kinda stuff is usually discussed in private). But nobody of us demanded anything. You resigned by yourself in what I figure was a fit of emotional distress (which further reinforces that you are not fit for staff position, nevermind administratorship..) and now you're bitter that you did so and try to make your way back in. You're actively flaming us for doing what we figured was the best for the community.

I don't know about everybody else here but let me ask you this: what kind of administrator ragequits lead adminship in a fit of emotion, only to try to get back in, in order to what I presume is to feel important. I'd say, a particularly selfish one who cannot seem to be able to make rational decisions. If you really seem to think you're so untouchable and that us voicing concerns to other people automatically makes us "backstabbers", I can only say having you off your gold-plated throne will only make things better for the community. Good riddance.
Last edited by Dusk on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: I'm Out

#3

Post by HeavenWraith » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:36 pm

In reply to Metal's post: dusk has outlined the timeline the same way I did to you yesterday in our private conversation, which lasted for at least 2 hours. However, after reading your post, I can only conclude that whatever I said apparently held no value and had no effect, despite me asking several times if you had any more questions (pardon me if I got something wrong, it was a really late hour for me). Seeing how my efforts were fruitless, it really discourages me to get over myself and tolerate your passive-aggressiveness, nevermind trying to work out things, because I don't have limitless patience (you're not the only one who has the privilege to snap). I can understand being upset about how this all happened (and I can only be sorry for various flaws in the execution), but this is above the threshold, which leads to a question - at this point, are you trying to come up with something constructive or have you just come to increase that animosity and discomfort inbetween staff and community members (which is counter-productive no matter how you look at it)?
Last edited by HeavenWraith on Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: I'm Out

#4

Post by Metal » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:32 pm

Alright. I was just fine with being diplomatic with you over the discussions and all, yet after everything you go out of the way to denigrate us? Well, dear community, let me share the actual story, in the fullest of all forms, right here:

There's no "Person A" here, instead it was the three of us who contacted Torr initially about our concerns. These are not new concerns, you and your staff had been behaving inconsistently judgement appeared to be based on personal vendettas and emotions and whatnot instead of attempting to be objective or, hell, open to both sides of any story given. And I would like to emphatize that all we did was voice concerns, we did not blackmail or threaten anyone. We did not do anything against the rules or anything to harm anyone for that matter. Unless disagreeing is considered a bad thing.
Wrong. There was person A, and fuck it, that person A was HW. Who initially went to Torr himself (I have logs of him saying that it was him and Torr initially.) "WE think your staff has been behaving inconsistently" Is probably what you meant to say. It was who? you, Dynamo, HW and...VP? Anyone else in your justice league? I'm pretty sure VP didn't really chime in on a whole lot. You didn't even just 'voice' concerns, you went over everyone's head (In staff) and decided to take it upon yourself to bug Torr about it. Torr had already had plans for the staff to begin with, which was to level out power among the staff. He voiced this not too long ago.
Not only that but you did not seem to exactly be on top of your issues either. Not able to warn people because "you could not find the warn button".
This was a glitch or bug on the forums. How is this not being on top of all the issues if it was in the process of being fixed?
Unable to keep some cheater banned because you were too lazy to whitelist people who were caught in range or getting around it somehow.
Let's review with this "developer" on what makes it difficult to ban people. Oh yes, IP banning! Why don't you go back to your corner and fix that. Lazy? Hardly, I did a lot here, and I whitelisted everyone who came in. I also don't have 24 hours in the day to spend on this port. Unless you wanna pay me to do it. If it's so bad, do it yourself.
Konar6 had this neat system for whitelisting people for the longest of times and you never thought of implementing it for the masterserver whitelist?
Who would do that? No one else thought of the idea. No one else even brought it to my attention. Until you, right now. This is why you come to me about issues, not Torr. Christ.
Or the countless of times there was some troublemaker in #zandronum and you were debating in #stmods what the fuck to do about for half an hour before coming to the slightest of actions. Or making threads and threads worth of clearly cut rules (when in fact common sense covers by far most of these rules) which were not even being applied consistently, so you get the worst of both worlds, strict, subjectively applied rules. Or going about demoting/removing your staff without any prior discussion and instating members like WaTaKiD without anyone even having the slightest clue that he even was made staff in the first place. It did not exactly seem like your team was rolling around very smoothy. No offense to WaTaKiD, I think he's got great potential to be an excellent masterserver admin.
We wanted to make sure we made the right decisions on bans, and sometimes people had questions about it and yeah, that's why there was a channel there for that. You know, staff discussion. but hell, you wouldn't know anything about that. You expect all the staff to be robotic. A whole unit working as one complete work of perfection. You're out of your mind if you think that is ever going to happen.

WaTaKid, I seen potential in. He was working IRC pretty well as well as having an unbiased opinion on everyone. Probably didn't think of that, did you? Nah, you just see the bad before you try and see the good in anything. The staff was actually perfectly fine before I stepped down as well. I just came down because I knew people like you were bothering Torr with this nonsense. But it's nice that after I finally step down, you make a point to come to me NOW about your issues...Instead of you know, holding it back and blowing up about it. But hey, what do I know!

As a result of this all was a massive rift between staff and community which kind of left both sides feeling bitter towards each other and assuming the worst of each other. "it's always some mxu or a3 conspiracy". Does that sound familiar? Or the other side accusing staff of covering spak's ass up when they were causing shitstorms around here. I'm still not certain this was not the case, either. And it seemed infurnus was caught in this as well despite actively trying to make things better. Not to mention the fact that you appeared to catch backlash no matter what you did? While it's no lie that trying to change things always will piss someone off, I have no doubt a lot of conflicts were caused by this painful separation between the staff and community. I think I discussed about this #stmods at one point and gave some ideas to ease things up, but to no avail. And this dissonance is why I figured to stop coming to #stmods and also why HeavenWraith resigned and his thread subsequently caught Torr Samaho's attention.
What massive rift...I see a few edgy people here and there, but the whole community seems to mind their bees wax and play the game. small handful of people out of the 200+ active members that play, and you guys think you speak for them all. You don't. Yep, MXU and A3 sound familiar because they are constantly annoyed with staff. Maybe if your friends stopped acting like retards around here you wouldn't have anything to complain about. I've seen maybe 3 or 4 people accuse us of 'covering spaks ass'. I never see spak on IRC, very rarely the forums, and yep, I hung out with them on TS. Oh christ, watch out, Metal, Cyber and Ruin hanging out with spak! They MUST be giving them special treatment. What a retarded thing to think.

Anyway, there was nothing huge between staff and the community. Just people who got warned and couldn't handle it making staff reform threads, people getting banned who break the rules constantly, and other people complaining that their friends got banned.

So we all met in private to discuss things and while doing so, yes, we did try to come up with a properly working system for staff to work with. No, we were not demanding anything, we were thinking about suggestions about how to improve things with staff considering you were struggling with community PR like that (note the rift I already mentioned). Torr came up with that separation of powers idea and he figured to post it on the staff forums. Personally, I thought the system was unnecessarily complex. A properly structured and communicating staff team would easily be able to deal with whatever without needing any complex setups. As for "him never hearing the other side of the story", we had enough logs to clearly state the issue exactly how it was. So he got both sides of the story at the same time.
Torr had previously mentioned the separation of powers before. He even mentioned a group of people who could neutrally make decisions on the staff or something of the sort. Hopefully it's not you guys.
Over time we also discussed with Vicious Pariah and Wartorn (who are the very hosts and thus still staff) and eventually figured to bring our concerns to infurnus, which we did, in fact, so don't go around spreading FUD that we did not talk to any staff members, as a matter of fact we talked with one of the very administrators. During our meet-up, infurnus contacted you about our concerns, I'm not sure exactly what he said but then all of the sudden you resign and, well, better off that way. So we meet up with the rest of #stmods to discuss things further, essentially ditch the separation of powers idea and come up with the current leadership idea. Ruin and Qent were not present to the meeting simply because they were not around at the time and everybody else was. Which brings us to the present day.
:)

I like how this small group of people who mean fuck all, decide what's good for staff. I'm glad I left. I'd rather people who have a completely unbiased opinion and less of a bitching factor to decide what happens. But hey, you guys call the shots now! That's probably what you wanted anyway, right?

So yes, very shady business indeed. Yes, we did discuss in private (because well, this kinda stuff is usually discussed in private). But nobody of us demanded anything. You resigned by yourself in what I figure was a fit of emotional distress (which further reinforces that you are not fit for staff position, nevermind administratorship..) and now you're bitter that you did so and try to make your way back in. You're actively flaming us for doing what we figured was the best for the community.

I don't know about everybody else here but let me ask you this: what kind of administrator ragequits lead adminship in a fit of emotion, only to try to get back in, in order to what I presume is to feel important. I'd say, a particularly selfish one who cannot seem to be able to make rational decisions. If you really seem to think you're so untouchable and that us voicing concerns to other people automatically makes us "backstabbers", I can only say having you off your gold-plated throne will only make things better for the community. Good riddance.
I'll bite. Cause you know what? I just don't care anymore. It's people like you who make it not even worth it anymore. So here goes:

You went over mine, infurnus and Ruins head to complain to Torr that staff are shitty, pretty much the idea here. We had no idea that there were these big bad issues because nobody came to us. Rather yet, you never spoke to me about it, Dusk. You had problems with me and never ever once tried to PM me about it. Even with my countless "You guys can talk to me, don't bite" efforts. This is all on you and your 'group'. You went behind our backs to get what you wanted because you thought I wouldn't listen. You ASSUMED I wouldn't. And now here we are because of your disregard for the fact that I am, human, Ruin is human, Infurnus is human. Because we made a few small mistakes (Yep, small), you took it upon yourself to try and fix things yourself. You didn't fix it, because now it's worse than it was.

Now here's the kicker. "what I figure was a fit of emotional distress (which further reinforces that you are not fit for staff position, nevermind administratorship..)and now you're bitter that you did so and try to make your way back in." May I ask what level of psychology you're taking? Honestly, are you able to presume that based on how I talk online? Again, with the rumors and yes, fud. Also, what? Where am I trying to make my way back in? What the hell, I've clearly stated many times on this forum and even on IRC when people have asked "Metal are you coming back" "Not to be an admin". ??? ? Where are you getting this information?
what kind of administrator ragequits lead adminship in a fit of emotion, only to try to get back in, in order to what I presume is to feel important.
Again, with the assumptions. I didn't quit in a fit of emotion, I actually have a log of it, and if infurnus doesn't mind, I'd love to share how calm everything was when it happened. You're delusional as hell if you think that I'm some crazy bitch flailing my limbs, quitting in a fit of rage and then begging to get back in.

I think we really know who the sick one is here. Please, keep your rumors and bullcrap to yourself and your group. I'm not up to hearing it.
Last edited by Metal on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: I'm Out

#5

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:43 pm

Why can't we have nice things

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RE: I'm Out

#6

Post by Zakken » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:48 pm

While the arguments here are good (watching Metal get fully aggressive is a particularly entertaining view, too), some of you guys' behavior here is nothing short of despicable. How can you possibly call yourselves "contributors", (ex) community representatives, if the bunch of you are going to pick on somebody in a bullying fashion with the excuse of him being part of the "minority"? How childish. The "damn son, you got told" and "THESE CRYBABIES NEED TO STOP COMPLAINING" posts aren't constructive in any way, so enjoy my reports.
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RE: I'm Out

#7

Post by mr fiat » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:59 pm

jeebus what a wall of text, can we get the tl;dr version?

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RE: I'm Out

#8

Post by Cyber' » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:15 pm

To be fair soul, the reality of it all is that 3/4 of the community doesn't give a care while the majority who do care have caused trouble at least once, thus explaining why we're here right now. Catastrophe below is a fine example.

Simply waiting for one or the other to repost so the opposite can nitpick it, you're here for that too.

The forums are no different, just less moderated. The irc network has no changes, and the master server was limited to cheaters only. You have to literally attack another person directly to get in trouble here.

Telling ya, go Kilgore and everything is solved.
Last edited by Cyber' on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: I'm Out

#9

Post by Catastrophe » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:16 pm

Decentralizing power? It's about time. As you can see by this thread, nobody should ever have as much power as metal did.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: I'm Out

#10

Post by Slim » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:25 pm

ibm5155 wrote: Jesus, alot of big texts, what did I created? I'm gonna kill myself...
(ok ok no suicide jokes or I'll get banned...)
We all know what happened to Sgt. BANANER... And it wasn't even originally on this forum...
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RE: I'm Out

#11

Post by Zap610 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:27 pm

Friendly PSA: If Zandronum falls into chaos, then Carnbarn has won. Don't let the Carnbarn win, don't let Zandronum fall into chaos.

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RE: I'm Out

#12

Post by Metal » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:15 pm

Catastrophe wrote: Decentralizing power? It's about time. As you can see by this thread, nobody should ever have as much power as metal did.
You know what? You can't even argue with this. About 3 or 4 years ago or more, it was fine. I could handle everything that was going on and what-not. But since the community grew, it became harder to manage everything at once as one person. I don't think this is fit for just any one person, the whole thing should be (and will be) spread out among a few people to soften the blow.

I don't think it's all that wise for one person to take all the shots.
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RE: I'm Out

#13

Post by Zakken » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:16 pm

Cyber wrote: To be fair soul, the reality of it all is that 3/4 of the community doesn't give a care while the majority who do care have caused trouble at least once, thus explaining why we're here right now. Catastrophe below is a fine example.
Unless you're Mr. Cheater who went out of his way to crash this port's services (OFTC's ST channel in the past) and does nothing but whore attention and act hypocritically, I don't think somebody's complaints should be ignored simply because they don't have a clean slate. Contrary to what a few people here strongly believe, it's not like said majority just wants to watch Zandronum crash and burn.
Cyber wrote:Simply waiting for one or the other to repost so the opposite can nitpick it, you're here for that too.
I wasn't nitpicking. That would imply I individually replied to each and every post I felt like. Instead, I chose to address the intended crowd generally.
Cyber wrote:The forums are no different, just less moderated.
I tend to disagree with this. I noticed things have gotten more liberal, but that doesn't necessarily mean moderators are slacking off. Or at least, I hope that's not the case.
Last edited by Zakken on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: I'm Out

#14

Post by Cyber' » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:25 pm

Soul:
The second one ya quoted wasn't towards you, was a reference towards what the two here are gonna do to each others posts. Sorry for the miscommunication there.

As for the other two, you bring up a valid opinion on both, perhaps we can talk on it when i get off if work.
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RE: I'm Out

#15

Post by Catastrophe » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:37 pm

To be fair soul, the reality of it all is that 3/4 of the community doesn't give a care while the majority who do care have caused trouble at least once, thus explaining why we're here right now. Catastrophe below is a fine example.
<PRO>Mauler would like a word with you.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: [split] I'm Out

#16

Post by infurnus » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:45 pm

I'm splitting this from the original thread, if you want to continue discussing this stay on topic, general staff stuff can be posted in the staff reform thread if it doesn't quite fit here.

I haven't read 100% of everything quite yet so I apologize if anything slipped through.

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RE: [split] I'm Out

#17

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:39 am

Wow, some of you need to calm down and lower the anger levels. It's rivaling the combined power of capo, deww and konar. Relax, you'll live longer. 8)

Anyway, I only have one minor thing to address.

[quote=Metal]You went over mine, infurnus and Ruins head to complain to Torr that staff are shitty. . .[/quote]
I've spoken with Torr via PM a few times about the staff in the past. I'm quite positive others have done the same (whether or not they step forward is up to them). It is definitely safe to say that Torr had enough of the PM's/emails being sent to him concerning the staff and quite honestly he most likely reached the melting point with regards to the staff complaints. Therefore, don't give Kuchi all of the credit because others played a part (albeit a minor one) in the events that lead up to this outcome. Call it whatever you want (or as you said in irc "PPL CRYING TO DADDY TORR WAAH", but at the end of the day for the majority of it's tenure, the staff you led was simply shitty.

Also since you don't care anymore, would you mind filling everyone on your A3 conspiracy theory? I'd like to know the details because I find it quite comical how hardly anyone in this clan even plays the game anymore, yet somehow we are still tied to staff drama and back room dealings. I'd like to see your, as capo refers to it, 'proofs'. Where are your proofs? I don't think you have proofs to back up your grand conspiracy theory.

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RE: [split] I'm Out

#18

Post by Metal » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:53 am

It's nice of you to also go to Torr instead of myself, where all the issues seem to come from. Thanks! "The staff you led was simply shitty" in your opinion, not everyones.

Anyway, where are you seeing all this "A3 conspiracy" shit?

Edit: A word.
Last edited by Metal on Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner

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Cyber'
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RE: [split] I'm Out

#19

Post by Cyber' » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:56 am

That's dusk's fault on that one, he mentioned A3 vs spak thus making it a topic of discussion by bringing it up Rust.
(only reason I'm replying is simply because that era involved me)
EDIT: I see all of you bees hovering around me....don't make me go all kung fu on you!
Last edited by Cyber' on Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: [split] I'm Out

#20

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:19 am

<Metal> Give me some examples of where you're seeing A3 conspiracies
<Metal> Or that I implied there were any

[quote=Metal][quote=Dusk]"it's always some mxu or a3 conspiracy". Does that sound familiar?[/quote]
Yep, MXU and A3 sound familiar because they are constantly annoyed with staff. [/quote]

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