[FINAL] [DM] Morgenstern - Released!

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
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Tiger
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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern NOW WITH A FRICKIN' BETA! {WIP}

#21

Post by Tiger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:33 am

Since the last beta release, there has been innumerous changes within the project - which most came from the feedback that everyone has provided. I would like to give everyone a new modern beta build for everyone to test and share thoughts on its current state.

Some changes:
  • Jumping pads no longer adds momentum towards the player.
  • Added Smooth Weapons
  • High-Def sounds
  • High-Res sprites [for some items]
  • Pretty jump pads
  • Pretty torches
  • Maps are now atmospheric
  • Generalized bug-fixes

Spoiler: Engine Bugs and Reported Issues (Open)
I might have to raise the requirements to GZDoom 2.2 and GZDoom 1.10, but I am not exactly quite sure yet.

I hope everyone enjoys this new beta build :smile:

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#22

Post by Decay » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:25 am

question 1: Is it still a stupidly fat download exceeding 120mb? Edit: No, apparently it's over 200 mb now! that's insane, have fun with no players.
question 2: Is it really so hard to make a simple and easy to find download for people? edit: Apparently that's too hard too! Even better is the screenshot below. Well done.

Image

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#23

Post by Tiger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:41 am

Tiger wrote: I don't know where you got 'TGRDM3-master.zip' from, but that isn't the provided beta.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#24

Post by Marcaek » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:00 am

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#25

Post by Catastrophe » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:04 am

Have you removed the songs you aren't using yet?

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#26

Post by Catastrophe » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:18 am

wtf did you do to map14? its unplayable http://i.imgur.com/V5P1rgt.png had to task manager out


is there any particular reason why u need to add this much detail??? http://i.imgur.com/FBW1G4p.png no on in their right mind will ever leave the main base..... wtf are you thinking???


are u really forcing ppl to swim this far for a rocketlauncer http://i.imgur.com/ifdspRX.jpg when there already is one in the base??? http://i.imgur.com/Kn1Ai8q.png

the amount wrong in this wad is just.... incomprehensible idk if i should even bother giving feedback there is almost no logic that was put into this map..... idk what to say
Last edited by Catastrophe on Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#27

Post by Decay » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:41 am

Dude I have been going through a bunch of screenshots with people who have downloaded this wad.

For someone who LOVES linking deathzor's guide, maybe you should've read and/or followed that guide, because I can't tell if this is a jokewad or not. Terrible, terrible, I guarantee you NOBODY will play this more than once. If they even play it once! You are so misguided and stubborn it's unbelievable, I mean yea make what you want but also take the criticism. Increasing requirements is probably the most retarded thing I've read all day. You can't even run these maps because of pointless "detail" (very loosely stated). You really need to reconsider what you're doing here.

CombinebobNT gave the best feedback, "This wad is like, 'Everything that could go wrong, did.'" Well done.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#28

Post by Combinebobnt » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:16 am

Wow ppl quoting me when I'm trying to be nice, too late tho cuz troublemaker number 2 starting stuff as usual. That quote is true though.

Ok Tiger I've been keeping half an eye on this project and I'm going to give you some advice that will hurt but you REALLY need it. Prepare yourself and set aside your emotions for a moment: The problem with this project isn't taking criticism or anything like that, you've been fairly receptive and that's good. The real problem is at the core of planning and executing a project, which to be honest, is at an F+ rating here. You have a 100+ mb wad with maps bigger than some in boomtown.wad, have no good reason for not working in Zandronum 2.0 (fog actors with unnecessary +ACTORFLAGS, dumb detail stuff, and pointless hud editions are not good reasons to keep your wad unplayable without beta versions or other ports. GZDoom is NOT a multiplayer port), targets quake-like gameplay without solid foundation (trying to establish a new standard is tough bro), is generally laggy due to overdetail, playtested with bots instead of players, unclear development and releases (look at all the above posts questioning download links and beta version crap), expecting ordinary players to download off of github (so what if it isn't hard to use? provide a direct download ALWAYS. deathmatch is a gamemode where you need more players, and stupid easy = more players), and possibly a questionable map quality as LAST (I didn't play any of the maps so I can't comment.)

So yes, "Everything that could go wrong, did.'" What to do? You can do whatever you want. You could make 64 maps in the same style and release a 666 mb wad and it doesn't matter. This is MUTLIplayer. The 'I can do whatever I want and you can accept it or leave' mentality does not work for multiplayer unlike how it might fly in the zdoom forums or whatever. Why? Because if nobody accepts it, you get 0 net players. Deathmatch requires 2+ players for a game (not bots either). Even if people are straight up wrong about a project's direction or something trivial, they still contribute to a lack of playercount: Who is the real winner if you never give in sometimes?

Here is my most recommended plan for you to continue with a multiplayer mapping career. You don't have to follow it exactly or at all, but that's honestly not my problem. My post is this long because I'm here to help.
  • Fix any immediate game-breaking bugs and remove unnecessary filesize bloat. Aeons of Death is in the 100's of mb's because it has shit tons of stuff. This project is just 16 maps, no excuse.
  • Counter-intuitively STOP work on this project after that, and release what you have as a final version. Some things are just not worth saving, a tough lesson to learn. Then again, I read you deleted 31 maps before or something, so you should be able to cope with this step.
  • Play a little bit of deathmatch with players (not bots!) to know what the hell you are mapping for in the first place. #deathmatch will be happy to help you play some games. You can look at other wads to see how they are good and whatever, but I'm sure you know that already.
  • After a little bit of play time, then it is time to START SMALL. No more big projects allowed. Map numbers should not reach double digits.
  • You need to make small projects and reach a CONSISTENT decent quality to them. Imitation is not a vice here, it is encouraged. You can be inspired by pretend vanilla or try a lazarus 3 or whatever. Don't get caught up in a cobweb of management, detail, or 'new' crap, and just keep it simple, please! Hell you can even try speedmapping. Speedmapping forces you to consider and implement what makes maps good and to cut everything excess and dumb detail. This may help or hurt you. You won't know until you try.
  • Make packs like these until they start becoming good. This is where criticism from the community comes into play. Small packs keep you from investing too much time into a shitty project; if it sucks, quit and make something better!
  • After you are consistently making good stuff, that's when you try for a big project like this with 'new radical quake gameplay' and crazy crap.
I hope this post helps you and you seriously consider what I wrote. Remember, you can't chase a dream if you don't know how to run first.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#29

Post by Tiger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:55 am

I think the biggest problem is - that I am not elaborating as to what I have planned. But could you exactly blame me for it? You could say yes and maybe you're right. But for so long in development hell with this project, I get excited that its moving along closer to its final release.
Combinebobnt wrote: have no good reason for not working in Zandronum 2.0 (
I believe I ran into UDMF issues before the assets rolled in; Zandronum's engine is ancient compared to the latest developments with (G)ZDoom. If I were to focus on specifically Zandronum 2.x, I would have to ultimately drop UDMF for Hexen. In turn, then I would have manually align and resize textures as-well as work around UDMF only features specifically - which I will not do. Zandronum 3.x engine look promising and getting close to - what this project needs.

Combinebobnt wrote:(look at all the above posts questioning download links and beta version crap), expecting ordinary players to download off of github
No. The download has never moved from the original topic. If I left the download buried in posts, then its merely just that - buried. No one is going to be willing to dig through posts for a download link when it could be already there in the front page. Moverover, I don't understand why people are assuming that they should compile it themselves for an announced beta, rather pointless direction. The filesysetm used on the project's GitHub does NOT follow ZDoom's archive standards -- the build that I provided does follow the standard. My next phases in development is the wiki, so compiling will finally be feasible for users who wish too.
Combinebobnt wrote:Fix any immediate game-breaking bugs and remove unnecessary filesize bloat. Aeons of Death is in the 100's of mb's because it has shit tons of stuff. This project is just 16 maps, no excuse.
This will be done and already has been planned (since 2013 when the texture format was standardized in the project, to be a little precise). I am not going to bother wasting my time on filtering on each beta release -- wasting a few days work to make a filtered build is not worth it. I could possibly (and still debating) on doing REGEX and push it through the compiler, but - this could take weeks to finally get something stable. The priority for this complaint is low, there's still other parts of this project that needs more attention.
Combinebobnt wrote:Play a little bit of deathmatch with players (not bots!) to know what the hell you are mapping for in the first place.
The lack of testers that I need for this project - does in fact hurt, and I would love to have testers provide as much feedback as possible. However, with the current maps - its long past. However, when I and if I create more maps for this project, I will need testers again.
Combinebobnt wrote:After a little bit of play time, then it is time to START SMALL. No more big projects allowed. Map numbers should not reach double digits.
Would you like to see smaller maps as opposed to the current stock set? How many players should be focused? If 8, I could see what I can do. Luckily, I have plenty of grid paper :biggrin:
Catastrophe wrote:is there any particular reason why u need to add this much detail??? http://i.imgur.com/FBW1G4p.png no on in their right mind will ever leave the main base..... wtf are you thinking???
You are precisely correct! That map (MAP15) and MAP14 are reject maps; ie. WHAT NOT TODO. You might be asking yourself "WHY THE FUCKING HELL DID YOU INCLUDE IT THEN IN THE FIRST PLACE?!", that is because I will re-centralize the maps to a hub. Thus, maps such as those will be categorized and optional.
MAP14, MAP15, and MAP16 were maps that I - I guess finding my style; finding a balance of what works and what doesn't. MAP16's layout doesn't feel 'exactly' like a DM map, but that is merely my view.


Thanks for the feedback everyone!

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#30

Post by Dynamo » Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:36 pm

Tiger wrote:I believe I ran into UDMF issues before the assets rolled in; Zandronum's engine is ancient compared to the latest developments with (G)ZDoom. If I were to focus on specifically Zandronum 2.x, I would have to ultimately drop UDMF for Hexen. In turn, then I would have manually align and resize textures as-well as work around UDMF only features specifically - which I will not do. Zandronum 3.x engine look promising and getting close to - what this project needs.
Err..... uhhhhhhhhhhh. What? I am 99.999999999999999% positive Zandronum 2.0 supports UDMF perfectly fine (I've played UDMF maps on it), in fact, I believe UDMF has been fully supported for a long, long time, even in relatively ancient versions of skulltag. What the hell are you on about?

Tiger wrote:As I use primarily GZDoom
This is without a doubt the most disappointing statement one could come up with when it comes to this thread. The sole fact you acknowledge this, without even the slightest hint of embarassment, makes me truly wonder why you would even consider making a DM wad. You are testing a MULTIPLAYER WAD INTENDED FOR ZANDRONUM with gzdoom. Then you act surprised when people point out bugs and flaws that you weren't aware of, and you also complain about the lack of testers when evidently, it is you in the first place who is incapable of properly testing this project.

I would highly advise to stop making deathmatch packs. Sorry to say but evidently you don't know how to develop one. Refurbish it for coop or something as it may have potential there.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#31

Post by Catastrophe » Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:50 pm

This will be done and already has been planned (since 2013 when the texture format was standardized in the project, to be a little precise). I am not going to bother wasting my time on filtering on each beta release -- wasting a few days work to make a filtered build is not worth it. I could possibly (and still debating) on doing REGEX and push it through the compiler, but - this could take weeks to finally get something stable. The priority for this complaint is low, there's still other parts of this project that needs more attention.
Is it really that hard to just remove songs you aren't using?

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#32

Post by Decay » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:07 pm

Honestly, at this point anything said to Tiger is a waste of text, and even more honestly anything said for this project is a waste of time and text too. Nobody will play it, Tiger thinks you guys are retarded, and all advice is worthless. Good game.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#33

Post by Tiger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:43 pm

Dynamo wrote:Err..... uhhhhhhhhhhh. What? I am 99.999999999999999% positive Zandronum 2.0 supports UDMF perfectly fine (I've played UDMF maps on it), in fact, I believe UDMF has been fully supported for a long, long time, even in relatively ancient versions of skulltag. What the hell are you on about?
You might be right about Zandronum 2.0 support with UDMF, looking at some old posts and notes - the chief complaint was with Zandronum 1.x series when it came to UDMF and missing map geometry. However, it looks like Zandronum 2.x is not possible anyways due the Player Starts on 3D Floors and assets. Following up with Abandoned Misery thread
I apologize if I provided incorrect information about Zandronum 2.x's UDMF support, though do keep in mind I can't fully test every map with said engine.

EDIT [5April2016]
Correction; Zandronum (including SkullTag) does indeed have issues with UDMF Which this project also requires.



Here is a small - yet old - image of Abandoned Misery using Zandronum 1.x
thumbnail
Dynamo wrote:You are testing a MULTIPLAYER WAD INTENDED FOR ZANDRONUM with gzdoom.
Incorrect. GZDoom is the main target, which its derivatives also get support - if the child-ports are modernized. Zandronum falls right into the spectrum, which again - the next major version looks very promising and I am looking forward to its final release -- I have tried to intentionally hold off adding new features so TGRDM3 will stay compatible with Zandronum 3.0.
Dynamo wrote:you also complain about the lack of testers when evidently, it is you in the first place who is incapable of properly testing this project.
I am not really complaining, but acknowledging that it is indeed a problem.

Catastrophe wrote:Is it really that hard to just remove songs you aren't using?
To address the issue efficiently, the music files are not the only data that takes up a lot of space. Unused textures would be the second heavy hitter in wasteful space, with that - I would need to use REGEX to filter out what is needed from the unused textures. The music files would merely have to go through this exact method as-well.

Decay wrote:Honestly, at this point anything said to Tiger is a waste of text, and even more honestly anything said for this project is a waste of time and text too. Nobody will play it, Tiger thinks you guys are retarded, and all advice is worthless. Good game.
Thanks for your help and negative feedback that doesn't with making this project better. I'll keep this for all to see through-out my generalized careers, and I'll give you full credit! :)



EDIT: (5 April. 2016)
Added note that Zandronum\SkullTag doesn't fully support UDMF at the fullest yet as some claim it to be.
Last edited by Tiger on Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#34

Post by Decay » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:56 pm

If you knew how to actually comprehend english, you would see that others and myself did nothing but try to help until you made a series of bad judgements that disinclined us to provide better feedback. Get fucked, and enjoy having nobody play this wad.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#35

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:57 pm

Cut it out, all of you.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#36

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:13 pm

Hmm, I'm not so sure Decay. I briefly went through his latest wad and I noticed he did listen to some of the feedback. He got rid of the fall damage and fixed most of his jump pads. Some of the later maps attempt to have a different look as opposed to everything being Quake1. I think I saw a few smaller maps instead of the large Single Player type maps as well.

Keep in mind whenever someone gives feedback on a product, they aren't entitled to anything. An author/creator can either ignore, listen or pick and choose said feedback. That's how it is and that's how it always will be. Whatever path he decides to travel in regards to his project development will route to the appropriate outcome.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - HONEY, I SHRUNK DM3 Beta {WIP}

#37

Post by Tiger » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:27 pm

Image
Good news, everyone!

I have just published a new beta build!

Some changes: >> DOWNLOAD <<

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - HONEY, I SHRUNK DM3 Beta {WIP}

#38

Post by Catastrophe » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:59 pm

24 MBs, thank you tiger. Will be checking this out soon.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - HONEY, I SHRUNK DM3 Beta {WIP}

#39

Post by Tiger » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:40 pm

Catastrophe wrote:24 MBs, thank you tiger.
I hope this works for everyone. There's really not much more that I can do about the size of the main package as I hit a limit.

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[FINAL] Re: [DM] Morgenstern - Atmospheric Beta {WIP}

#40

Post by Tiger » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:48 am

Ru5tK1ng wrote:[...]and fixed most of his jump pads. [...]
Thanks to Torr Samaho and Graf Zahl, I think the next build that I will release sometime tomorrow should correct the jumping pads once and for all - I hope. So far, this script seems to hold just fine. Though, I would highly encourage testing to be sure that the jumping pad are actually working as intended.

Also, I think very soon I can officially drop (TESTED) from Zandronum 3.0 ;)

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