[FINAL] Abandoned Misery - A DM Map

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
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Tiger
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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 [Morgenstern]

#21

Post by Tiger » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:46 am

I am a bit more clear-minded now
Torr Samaho wrote: Ok, let's try to find out why we are apparently not understanding each other. To get started let me first make sure that I did not misinterpret your statements. What you wrote so far to me clearly sounded as if you had no absolutely intention to support Zandronum 1.2.2 or Zandronum 2.0 in its current form with your project. Is this correct or did I misinterpret your statements?
The only real issue is just the Jumping Pad issues, the only fix - is to use a 'z-height' check via ACS. This alone is a horrible solution and severely limited (two players enter that sector at the same time, the script will not execute properly), with this idea I prefer to not dare implement at all costs -- I know this will be fixed later on within the main engine regardless, so I am not concerned at this moment. So you're right, any missing features that Zandronum\SkullTag has in difference with GZDoom (or ZDoom, depending), I wont really deal with work-around (and risk creating new bugs) unless I absolutely positively have too supply a Patch WAD fix for a dedicated port.
So, I have no intention to support Zandronum 1.2.2 nor Zandronum 2.0 - in its current state. They must first be compatible with the project. Though, even with this being a Deathmatch project, I highly doubt that this project is exactly 'locked' to one port as the fundamental aspects and rules (or standards, if you wish to go that far) of Deathmatch is no-where close to Cooperative gamemode ;).

I do apologize for my hasty - attitude. I have been working on this project since 2007 and I have currently 37 maps in the Reject directory, that should tell you enough as to how much time I put into this project and how I treat it. -- This is almost like a Duke Nukem Forever project!!
Again, I am sorry.
Spoiler: Reject Dir (Open)

Code: Select all

    Directory: C:\Users\Nicholas\SVN Projects\TGRDM3\Trunk\Maps\RejectedMaps


Mode                LastWriteTime     Length Name
----                -------------     ------ ----
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42   13583378 Blood_Stone.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     508696 Cave.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     293208 Dark_Stone.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    8392042 Demon_Paradise.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42   12352676 Direful.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    1458006 Fire_Angel.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    1519654 HELP01.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    1638191 Ice_Breaker.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      93012 Indthus.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     161291 Kaleidoscopical.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     365556 MAP01.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     876696 MAP02.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     101533 MAP03.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     470356 MAP04.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    1052144 MAP05.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     179793 MAP06.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      42028 MAP07.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      85942 MAP08.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     319680 MAP09.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     565372 MAP10.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     278940 MAP11.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     108677 MAP12.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     629673 MAP13.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     238413 MAP14.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     482742 MAP15.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     185523 MAP16.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     135010 MAP17.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     537240 MAP18.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      35375 MAP19.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      35702 MAP20.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      43873 MAP21.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     253559 MAP22.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42      47054 MAP23.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     307716 MAP24.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     592369 MAP26.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42     230648 MAP27.wad
-a---     25.March.2014     20:42    1468046 MAP28.wad
agaures wrote: This could also be achieved easier if you just lowered the 3d floor a little bit so the player wouldn't be walking onto it but falling onto it.
This would break the expectations within the deathmatch game and layout design. Think of this: You have little to no time to find the jumping pad to go across the other platform, you can:
  • A: Jump off the platform and hope to god you're going to hit the jumping pad. If you miss, you could loss a Frag (or is this just from Quake? I don't exactly remember)
  • B: Slowly move to the other platform by foot. This might seem nice, but only if you don't have another player chasing you down with a BFG 10k.
I would honestly like to slope that 3D Object uppwards a bit, but I don't fully remember if that bug has been addressed yet from ZDoom. I'll experiment with it later on.
Ninjamander wrote: I don't think you should give up for some misunderstanding.
I never said I would stop this project over a forum thread. I am already planning on Dependencies, and I just did a revision newsflash (which I will mirror on this thread, here very soon)
phpBB [video]
The [video] tag is deprecated, please use the [media] tag
Torr Samaho wrote: So, to me it looks like this thread should go to the General Chat subforum.
As long as this entire topic will be treated as a 'project' thread and not generalized thread, I'll be okay with that now. I am unsure about the policies when TGRDM3 and Zandronum are compatible with each other, - meaning I am not sure if the topic is forever lost in General forum or if it gets re-transferred to Projects. By chance, is there any clarity on this?
Here is even more screenshot updates (up to revision 670). In addition, I have begun planning on the Dependencies. More news on this later...
Anyone is free to share some input on the dependencies and the general developments.


IMAGES ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE!
Last edited by Tiger on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#22

Post by agaures » Fri Jul 18, 2014 4:34 am

Well i didn't say you had to move the jumppads a whole room down. I was just meaning by 8 mapunits at least.
<agaures> I'm guessing you haven't played many doom mods before huh? :p
<Zuplin> i have played master of puppets zombies doom center and a couple more
<agaures> so not many
<Zuplin> i thought that was everything

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#23

Post by Torr Samaho » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:45 pm

Tiger wrote: As long as this entire topic will be treated as a 'project' thread and not generalized thread, I'll be okay with that now. I am unsure about the policies when TGRDM3 and Zandronum are compatible with each other, - meaning I am not sure if the topic is forever lost in General forum or if it gets re-transferred to Projects. By chance, is there any clarity on this?
If it's compatible with Zandronum it surely can be in the Zandronum project forum. Even if you just plan to make it compatible with Zandronum in the foreseeable future (i.e. with 1.2.2 or 2.0), the Zandronum project forum is the right place for this thread. Just as long as you have no plans to make it compatible with Zandronum in the foreseeable future, it does not fit into the Zandronum project forum.

BTW: Regarding the jump pads, I'm not sure which technical aspect you are exactly referring to. Is it a mechanism that didn't exist in GZDoom 1.5.0 yet or is it just a GZDoom 1.5.0 bug?

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#24

Post by Tiger » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:58 am

Here's another round of screenshot updates (up to revision 984). Getting close to finishing this map....

IMAGES ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE!

More screenshots are available at the Development blog!
Last edited by Tiger on Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#25

Post by Tiger » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:09 am

Decay wrote: May I inquire as to why there are so many rejects given the (assumed) low amount of play testing? You may have accidentally rejected some potentially great maps.
You would be right about the maps not being well-tested, but that's not the main reason why I rejected the older maps. I particularly didn't like the map layout style; most maps didn't flow right, didn't follow the Deathmatch standards (as I can remember from Deathz0r's tutorial), too much 'boxy' syndrome going on, and generally - I thought I could do better. Some maps within the reject pile were created for a short time and would eventually be thrown out of the main project, while some actually had time spent on them with details and item placements, but – again same fate. There is two maps I am very fond of: Blood Stone (TGRDM210), and Direful (TGRDM211), but - they are only good by a visual sense and nothing more. You can find these two maps in the Glory Beta Build (2010). Do note, that you'll have to use the Console as the MAPINFO was not properly setup, also - you'll need SkullTag's resources as TGRDM3 was targeting SkullTag at that time. These two maps are prime examples of bad flow, boxy syndrome, and just – boring after awhile, hardly worth really playing at all. Despite that I originally wanted to keep some of the maps for ‘software renderer’ friendly, they were still thrown out - but for another reason. I’ll stop with the history, as I am already making a wall of text here….

In addition, the maps I have now are better built than what previously existed. I am personally very happy with the maps that have so far created (and remade) in the recent developments. They feel so much better and should follow with the Deathmatch standards, - taking what was once boring and dull during the small gameplay testing, to something more lively. Though, as the newer maps have not yet been played tested (from their skeleton form), I can only assume they will play in the proper setting. The maps that are designed now follow a new creation process. Previously, I would sketch the maps on a normal sheet of paper and immediately put the idea on Doom Builder (2). This leaves so many problems and flaws when putting a draft into the editor; heights, widths, room size, etc. I had followed this from the very start of 2005 through – 2011. Now, I changed my entire process into a lengthy process: Draft the map (art paper), put the draft into graphing paper with a fixed scale (using 128x128 in TGRDM3’s latest maps), and then finally – put the entire image into grid paper. With this process, I am able to easily put maps into the editor with little to no mistakes, and I try to play the maps in my head to see what needs to be done or if the map is just - - terrible from the start. Yes, this takes days, but – so far this process is working in my opinion. I don’t think I have rejected any maps recently – omitting the older maps. Thus, with the recent maps I have today, I am confident with them and I think everyone will enjoy them, but we’ll see the final results later.
Torr Samaho wrote: BTW: Regarding the jump pads, I'm not sure which technical aspect you are exactly referring to. Is it a mechanism that didn't exist in GZDoom 1.5.0 yet or is it just a GZDoom 1.5.0 bug?
After checking the ZDoom build history, they work perfectly fine in build 2.6.0. and here's the old bug report: bug report about this. The Jumping Pads works by using Sector THING 'Actor Hits Floor' execution. The 3D Object Jumping Pads also uses this, but the THING's are moved to the Dummy sector references and not 'in' the actual map layout as expected with the normal 2.5D design. Hopefully that made sense?

I have to reference from ZDoom, as I can't find any builds or version history from GZDoom. Hopefully this is enough information you are looking for?
agaures wrote: Well i didn't say you had to move the jumppads a whole room down. I was just meaning by 8 mapunits at least.
I don't think we're talking about the same Jumping Pad. Are we talking about these?
Spoiler: Jumping Pad; using 3D Objects and Slopped 3D Objects (Open)
Image
Moving or even resizing these will accomplish nothing, they must be fixed to follow with the normal FLOOR\CEILING 2.5D design with no 3D Objects in order to work with (G)ZDoom 2.5.0
Last edited by Tiger on Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#26

Post by agaures » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:37 am

Tiger wrote: I don't think we're talking about the same Jumping Pad. Are we talking about these?
Yes. Just see what moving them down a few mapunits does.
Last edited by agaures on Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
<agaures> I'm guessing you haven't played many doom mods before huh? :p
<Zuplin> i have played master of puppets zombies doom center and a couple more
<agaures> so not many
<Zuplin> i thought that was everything

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#27

Post by Torr Samaho » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:22 pm

Tiger wrote: After checking the ZDoom build history, they work perfectly fine in build 2.6.0. and here's the old bug report: bug report about this. The Jumping Pads works by using Sector THING 'Actor Hits Floor' execution. The 3D Object Jumping Pads also uses this, but the THING's are moved to the Dummy sector references and not 'in' the actual map layout as expected with the normal 2.5D design. Hopefully that made sense?
Is there a small example map that allows to test this? Unfortunately, the map from the bug report is not available anymore.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#28

Post by Tiger » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:06 pm

Torr Samaho wrote: Is there a small example map that allows to test this? Unfortunately, the map from the bug report is not available anymore.
I'll get back to this later; I am going to be away for a couple of days.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#29

Post by Tiger » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:28 am

Torr Samaho wrote: Is there a small example map that allows to test this? Unfortunately, the map from the bug report is not available anymore.
I am having massive withdrawals right now as I cant really work with my project right now as - I don't have my workstation fully present.... So, I decided to create a simple demonstration PWAD with my tablet.

The format I used for this demonstration is UDMF. Additionally, I included the .dbs file that was generated with GZDoom Builder revision 1987, merely for referencing and inspecting the map if desired -- only trying to help the best I can. The map displays a total of three 3D Object jumping pads: 2 slopped, 1 flat. All of the jumping pads will Thrust Thing by Z-Height and Thrust Thing by a given angle (64 or 192).

Hopefully this helps

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#30

Post by Torr Samaho » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:47 pm

Tiger wrote: The format I used for this demonstration is UDMF. Additionally, I included the .dbs file that was generated with GZDoom Builder revision 1987, merely for referencing and inspecting the map if desired -- only trying to help the best I can. The map displays a total of three 3D Object jumping pads: 2 slopped, 1 flat. All of the jumping pads will Thrust Thing by Z-Height and Thrust Thing by a given angle (64 or 192).
Thanks! From some quick testing it seems that the two sloped pads work fine in Zandronum, but the flat one is not triggered if you walk onto it, right? This 2.0 beta build contains some additional backported ZDoom fixes that should fix the issue. When you get a chance, can you check whether this fixes the problems for you?

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#31

Post by Tiger » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:11 pm

Torr Samaho wrote:When you get a chance, can you check whether this fixes the problems for you?
Sure! It'll probably be several days before I can finally test the provided build, but I'll let you know once I test it out.

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#32

Post by Tiger » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:32 am

I'll try out the testing build either later today or tomorrow, just an fyi -- I have not forgotten but have been busy and had to deal with certain unwanted pests...

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[FINAL] RE: [WIP] TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#33

Post by Tiger » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:03 am

Torr Samaho wrote: This 2.0 beta build contains some additional backported ZDoom fixes that should fix the issue. When you get a chance, can you check whether this fixes the problems for you?


This build works perfectly with the latest revision in TGRDM3 (r992). The map currently has two 3D Object jumping pads, flat and slopped, which both work perfectly fine with the provided build.

Not sure if this is a known issue or the fact that I am using an older .ini file (zan 1.2.2 ini), the HUD's colouring seems a bit off...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#34

Post by Torr Samaho » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:49 pm

Tiger wrote: This build works perfectly with the latest revision in TGRDM3 (r992). The map currently has two 3D Object jumping pads, flat and slopped, which both work perfectly fine with the provided build.
Great! In this case, your mod should be compatible with 2.0 now.
Tiger wrote: Not sure if this is a known issue or the fact that I am using an older .ini file (zan 1.2.2 ini), the HUD's colouring seems a bit off...
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
I don't remember a problem like this. Can you open a ticket on the tracker and attach a minimal example wad?

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#35

Post by Tiger » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:35 pm

Torr Samaho wrote: Great! In this case, your mod should be compatible with 2.0 now.
Great! Thank you for your help! I'll eventually get around to compacting the texture database into an archive algorithm that is compatible with ZDoom 2.5.0.

Torr Samaho wrote: I don't remember a problem like this. Can you open a ticket on the tracker and attach a minimal example wad?
Whenever I get around to it and do a 'proper' test. I think it is merely a conflict with the .ini as I didn't use a new config file.

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#36

Post by Tiger » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:53 am

Within a couple of days, I will be uploading a new revision of the 'Abandoned Misery' map for gameplay testing. Thus, everyone will be able to test out the latest map revision and share feedback.

I will post more information later on....

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#37

Post by Tiger » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:32 am

I have uploaded a preview of Abandoned Misery (revision 1008), do remember to grab the latest texture package. Everyone is free to take a peak at it and send feedback of the map. As the map currently has no items\weapons, the map can not really be played as is without needed additional resources. For those that want to test out the map by themselves or with friends, I would recommend on using Zandronum 2.0 [140723-1716] and enable the buckshot modifier until the map contains items and weapons.

Enjoy!

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#38

Post by Tiger » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:38 am

Abandoned Misery Preview 2 is now available (revision 1033) for everyone to try and share feedback.

I think it is time for me to start working on the outside areas now....
Spoiler: Screenshots resized to 720p for convenience (Open)
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Spoiler: Screenshots resized to 720p for convenience (Open)
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Last edited by Tiger on Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#39

Post by Tiger » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:28 am

I have recently uploaded Abandoned Misery revision 1047; this revision merely contains lighting and a few other minor changes. I have tested this map with GZDoom 2.0.01 beta build and immediately noticed how generally smooth the map plays - even with the dynamic lighting and expensive features that ultimately put GZDoom 1.8.6 and previous version to its knees.
I hope others enjoy the changes thus far! As always, share feedback and feel free to test drive this map.
Spoiler: Revision 1047 Screenshots (720p) (Open)
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More screenshots available here

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[FINAL] RE: TGRDM3 - A Deathmatch Project

#40

Post by Tiger » Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:50 am

As of revision 1054 (includes: r1051), I have officially broke compatibility with Zandronum 2.0 [ZDoom 2.5.0] -- There is specific ZMAPINFO settings from ZDoom [2.6.0 -> 2.7.1] that are not yet available in ZDoom 2.5.0.

The forum moderators are free to transition this entire topic to 'offtopic', as this project is no longer compatible with Zandronum.

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