Let's Talk

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
Jenova
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RE: Let's Talk

#81

Post by Jenova » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:17 pm

I didn't edit my first post. I (along with probably everybody else in this thread) only realized what Mobius did after Metal and co. explained. Mobius originally had told me some stupid story, which basically downplayed what he did. Notice the time difference between the two posts. I was going to go back and edit it but seeing as how a bunch of people have quoted the post I figured it really wouldn't matter.
Last edited by Jenova on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#82

Post by Tenchu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:29 pm

Decay wrote: "Sheltering"
Spak. That's what the core issue of this thread is. You shelter the biggest assholes in Multiplayer Doom. This has been proven time and time again.
It's funny because the spak crew hasn't been involved with anything drama-related in a long time. Seriously, what was the most recent thing we did? All we do anymore is play League, scrim on Doom sometimes and just have fun. There has been absolutely zero interest in stirring up drama around here in ages. Go find another group to pin your problems on.

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RE: Let's Talk

#83

Post by Cyber' » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:03 pm

It could be worse.
Totally not the zdaemon administration. Their ban
lists are all hidden.
Last edited by Cyber' on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Let's Talk

#84

Post by Jenova » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:14 pm

Decay wrote: @Jenova's latest post

I stand by my opinion you just did a flip flop.

@infurnus' post
"Do I think staff is conspiring against people"
Yes, I do. Leaks and other logs have demonstrated even those willing to reform are still pulling shady moves. At this point, I don't trust any of the head staff, nor a majority of the lesser staff.

"If I don't believe these things"
I never said I don't believe them. I just don't make a personal issue out of it.

"progress"
Actually I rescind this, I don't believe anything of real substance will be done. I think this is mostly a charade at this point.

"youtube isn't our website"
See "about the youtube video

@Metal's post
"Bad cop"
No, people just think you're a terrible cop. Lots of people don't trust you.

"Mobius' ban"
I haven't seen the picture so I don't no, but again I don't condone the actions. However, it has just shown that you made the wrong moves, and was poorly executed. This is not the first occasion, hence why people think you are incompetent.

"Things are untrue"
Maybe you should talk to a broader player base, otherwise I think this is just ignoring the problem. How can you say one minute that things are untrue but then previously say you know people don't like you?

"mods contradict me"
This isn't an imaginary issue. You picked some good tokens though.

"people are going to pick people who do what they want"
I didn't realize unbiased, unemotional, fair treatment was a terrible thing to want.

"Respect"
We can respect you as a person, but disrespect your actions/decisions, which is what is happening.

"Sheltering"
Spak. That's what the core issue of this thread is. You shelter the biggest assholes in Multiplayer Doom. This has been proven time and time again.

"I'm level headed, unbanning blue's crew is proof"
No that's community pressure. If you weren't pressured they would be banned to this day.



In a quasi summary, though the thread shouldn't be locked, but I doubt I'm going to post here again, I should've expected the results that have happened. People can say what they want, but in reality, nothing is going to change. People flip flop, backstab, lie through their teeth, and pretend to support causes they silently undermine. Most people are going to take this post as a way to cheaply cop-out of doing anything. If you are sincere about any reforms, I encourage you to continue dialogue.
Lol, what a joke post. The reason people flip-flop is because new crap comes up. A court finds someone innocent, then later new evidence shows up proving that he is guilty. Am I supposed to stick to believing that the offender is innocent? Your opinion in inherently flawed and after reading your post history, you are pretty much the most passive-aggressive person on these forums and I'm surprise you aren't actually banned.

Who is the staff conspiring against? You? Maybe you shouldn't make stupid topics based on speculation and nonsense if you actually want people to agree with you.

Regarding Metal's ban, it wasn't a wrong move per say, she just didn't want to bring attention to the fact. She even gave you a good long post (which you decided to ignore, or simply cannot read) explaining why she did what she did. Maybe it could have been done better, but it wasn't a really big deal.

Your post about Spak is the best. "Spak is the core issue of the post". Here is the TC, folks:


[23:58] <04@ThesisSoldier> this isn't about spak
[23:58] <04@ThesisSoldier> it's about methods and policies
[23:58] <Hypnotoad> yeah i didnt mean the OP in general
[23:58] <Hypnotoad> just that bit
[23:58] <04@ThesisSoldier> you're reading too deep somehow
[23:58] <04@ThesisSoldier> i specifically did not single out a person or group for that reason

I don't think the Spak crew are giant assholes, or at least haven't seen them do anything extreme as of recent. I don't really talk to them that often (not as much as I used to anyways) but they seem like some dudes who just want to play some games. Obviously they joke around often, but their jokes are not as tasteless as what Mobius did.

As per your advice, please do not post anymore in this thread. By posting in this topic, you have managed to convince a large amount of people that you actually have no idea of what you're talking about.
Last edited by Jenova on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#85

Post by Tenchu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:55 pm

Decay wrote: Spak. That's what the core issue of this thread is.
Jenova wrote: [23:58] <04@ThesisSoldier> this isn't about spak
Hahaha, this is too good.

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RE: Let's Talk

#86

Post by RedShirt » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:27 am

Cyber needs to stop sheltering me!!! But seriously, for the most part we sit on Teamspeak and play League or wow or whatever other game we're in to at the moment. Every now and again TM will scrim or I'll play with pro. I would actually like to hear how the core problem here is Spak. If anything the problem here is people still go around and spam "free so and so" because their friend got banned for a viable reason. This whole thread is full of non sense.
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RE: Let's Talk

#87

Post by Torvald » Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:11 am

Since Decay has managed to try and affix Spak to the current issue once again, I feel the need to protest concern for the recent allegations that have been presented before us. If I may inquire: What exactly has Spak done recently that would earn us the title of being "the biggest assholes" in doom? Indulge me, because most of us seldom play doom these days albeit for the occasional scrim with other clans such as R or VGL. Has someone been aliasing as me and instigating trouble behind my back? because that would be an issue requiring some attention.

I honestly feel like we're being used as a scapegoat to divert attention away from the original topic at hand. I was under the impression this thread started out with a discussion regarding 'faulty administration overreacting to a "harmless" prank'. So far I've witnessed multiple claims that "people" feel a certain way about staff, but I have yet to see any actual names listed here. It all sounds like a bunch of fraudulent statements with no real backing evidence to support the claims that were made.

I'm all for discussion about subjects like this within reason, but so far I'm not really seeing anything here worth while other than mass statements with little to no affirmation behind them.


So please, leave us out of it. We aren't doing anything.
Last edited by Torvald on Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Let's Talk

#88

Post by Watermelon » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:11 am

Metal wrote: I honestly feel people think I'm a bad admin because I come off as the "bad cop". As it stands now, infurnus mainly focuses on the forums themselves, Cyber negotiates and talks to people and I make the harsh decisions. This has gained a bad reputation for me and I knew it would, but I was willing to take this position because I enjoy the port a lot and wanted to contribute my time to it.
I am personally all for people who make the harsh decisions, but the problem is there is zero standardization and it's basically which admin you get on what day. If someone does something bad an Cyber is there, he will probably just slap them and tell them if they screw up again they're in deeper trouble, but if you were there you'd would press the red circular 'destroy' button then and there. Among the staff there needs to be rules for standardization.
I don't have a problem with harsh admins, as long as it follows a shared set of rules and everyone is equal. Is it possible if more solid rules can be forced out rather than ambiguous rules? The problem is 'catch-me-all' rules can be interpreted too loosely, like "Don't be an ass" etc; good catch-me-all's IMO are ones like "anything to threaten network security results in a g-line" because it's specific enough to cover cases that are serious enough to warrant nuking the offending person.


I'll use this same example because I understand how it does look and I do know that it is giving me a lot of heat right now so maybe I'll just come out with it so people know why the "emotional" part came in. I didn't want to go into great detail and I still won't because it's my own business. But basically, the picture he posted was meant to be very private for a reason, and I'm more ticked at the fact that it got out. I was very very sick at that point of my life (several years ago) and when Mobius posted it, questioning my gender, I'm sure you can understand, as a human being, it would be upsetting. I didn't want anyone to know this much about it and I still don't. I didn't want to gline him right then and there because I knew it would stir trouble, but I was talking to infurnus about it and we decided it might be best to do so when everything was quiet so it wouldn't create an uproar.

This wasn't so much an "emotional" ban as it was "We've warned this guy about his behavior, and he just disregards it"
I personally feel bad such a picture got out -- Mobius did prevent anyone from seeing it within 2-3 minutes of it being posted by moving the database. I didn't see it but when I came back he had just removed the pictures. Not even I saw it and I was there most of the time. Hopefully that puts your mind at ease a bit.

Since it's something that keeps coming up, is there an ETA on when his ban gets lifted? This way the community can see what punishment was given for the action.


People feel that you are just hanging on to power for the sake of it, and want change. You know people don’t like you as an admin, maybe this is an indicator of something. Personally I believe most of the dislike directed toward you is because of your role. But there is a reason these reform threads crop up once in a while, and a lot of it has to do with your actions, unfortunately.
As I stated at the beginning, people want someone who is going to do what they want. And they want someone who is going to listen to everyone and please every single person. This is not going to happen. You are not going to get justified bans 100% of the time.

People say in this thread they want consistency. They want bans to be all equal and that there are people still roaming around who should be banned and there are people we are "sheltering". Who? We do not know. The idea of us favoring people and being more harsh on some people rather than others has been thrown around but I see no PM's being sent to me about this.

Using an example in this thread (since Mobius is the hot topic), when I hung around with Spak, I remember on TS when you, myself, Redshirt, and a few other Spak members were on and Redshirt said "hey we should make all our avatars Mobius' face".
Your response was that it was a stupid idea, but they went and did it anyways and got warned for it. Now they got what would be considered a reasonable warning, but it definitely wasn't a ban. No one knows if Mobius would have found this offensive, and he could have been just as upset. In this case, he got an insane (if not perm? no one knows) g-line for the image, but these other guys have on multiple occasions used his face.

Not only that, but SpakCTF has a secret level called MOBI01 which uses a photoshopped face of Mobius in an obviously attempt-at-being-offensive way. Since this has been hosted on the master multiple times, does that mean that the authors responsible for this are going to be master banned like Mobius got g-lined?



Respect goes both ways. If you respect me, I respect you. And for the most part, I've made sure that I send respect out before receiving it. In other words, I try to be understanding and considerate when it comes to people speaking to me on here, or talking about me. I'm more level headed than people think. If I wasn't, blue and crew will still be banned for the youtube comments. So would a lot of other people. So please, don't go by what you hear, talk to me, I'm usually pretty nice :P
I personally don't have any problems with you as a person. I also personally think a lot of your stern actions come from all the stuff you've dealt with IRL, and the dumbasses that did things that went from internet -> IRL. From this I think you also dislike a lot of bullying; which people can support. Possibly if you care enough (sadly I don't at this point) would be to funnel any kind of energy into writing a ton of refined rules on IRC and running them by the community before implementation.
Last edited by Watermelon on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#89

Post by Jenova » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:27 am

I think Water's post did a good job explaining the warning discrepancy at hand. Obviously the admins can not be on top of everything all the time, however, those two posts should entail the same level of warning.

http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3525
http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3524

(the two posts in question)

Could we know who issued the warning, as well as who split the posts from the topic?

If more people provided examples, this topic could go places!
Last edited by Jenova on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#90

Post by legion » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:32 am

both of those posts gained warnings for the posters involved
both of them were punished similarly

the warns in my opinion were warranted and completely fair
Last edited by legion on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Let's Talk

#91

Post by infurnus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:36 am

legion wrote: both of them were punished similarly
This is slightly disingenuous; I'll clarify that I gave the warns for both.

edd had a 60% warn level after his post, and Reach Term had a 50% warn level after his post. I'll be transparent and also state that edd's higher warn was partially from other split posts that were not previously warned, basically giving him %50 in one go. Reach Term got 30% added to their previous warn level, making it +50% for edd, and +30% and Reach Term. [EDIT: I've reworded this for clarification]
If this is deemed unfair, then I guess I understand where you're coming from
Last edited by infurnus on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#92

Post by Metal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:43 am

Watermelon wrote:I am personally all for people who make the harsh decisions, but the problem is there is zero standardization and it's basically which admin you get on what day. If someone does something bad an Cyber is there, he will probably just slap them and tell them if they screw up again they're in deeper trouble, but if you were there you'd would press the red circular 'destroy' button then and there. Among the staff there needs to be rules for standardization.
I don't have a problem with harsh admins, as long as it follows a shared set of rules and everyone is equal. Is it possible if more solid rules can be forced out rather than ambiguous rules? The problem is 'catch-me-all' rules can be interpreted too loosely, like "Don't be an ass" etc; good catch-me-all's IMO are ones like "anything to threaten network security results in a g-line" because it's specific enough to cover cases that are serious enough to warrant nuking the offending person.
This is a difficult one, for the simple reason that we're all different admins with different beliefs and standards. I really see where you're coming from and I can see how it is an issue right now. I can speak for the admins when I say we're inconstant. The rules probably need to be defined to a much finer point. The only problem that arises is that some punishments are different based on whatever issue arises. Things are pretty much dealt with on a case to case basis right now and you're right when you say that it depends on the admin you get. It's very hard to get that happy medium though with different opinions on how things are handled within the staff. Cyber may say "Eh, let's just give him one last warning but next time, ban" while I say "He knows better, we should set a temp ban on him so he knows we're not bluffing and his actions aren't acceptable". Sometimes it's even the other way around. What it comes down to is that we need more hivemind when it comes to administrating the community. So in this case, I can agree with you.
I personally feel bad such a picture got out -- Mobius did prevent anyone from seeing it within 2-3 minutes of it being posted by moving the database. I didn't see it but when I came back he had just removed the pictures. Not even I saw it and I was there most of the time. Hopefully that puts your mind at ease a bit.

Since it's something that keeps coming up, is there an ETA on when his ban gets lifted? This way the community can see what punishment was given for the action.
There currently is no ETA on the time for his ban. I'll be discussing this with the rest of the staff and will set a time on it when we reach a decision.

Using an example in this thread (since Mobius is the hot topic), when I hung around with Spak, I remember on TS when you, myself, Redshirt, and a few other Spak members were on and Redshirt said "hey we should make all our avatars Mobius' face".
Your response was that it was a stupid idea, but they went and did it anyways and got warned for it. Now they got what would be considered a reasonable warning, but it definitely wasn't a ban. No one knows if Mobius would have found this offensive, and he could have been just as upset. In this case, he got an insane (if not perm? no one knows) g-line for the image, but these other guys have on multiple occasions used his face.

Not only that, but SpakCTF has a secret level called MOBI01 which uses a photoshopped face of Mobius in an obviously attempt-at-being-offensive way. Since this has been hosted on the master multiple times, does that mean that the authors responsible for this are going to be master banned like Mobius got g-lined?
I personally had no clue about the picture of mobius on SpakCTF. If it was hosted on the master server, the punishment for such things is to ban the server IP itself from hosting. There's already some IP's on that list that have used porn, offensive server names or really graphic, uh....furry stuff.
I personally don't have any problems with you as a person. I also personally think a lot of your stern actions come from all the stuff you've dealt with IRL, and the dumbasses that did things that went from internet -> IRL. From this I think you also dislike a lot of bullying; which people can support. Possibly if you care enough (sadly I don't at this point) would be to funnel any kind of energy into writing a ton of refined rules on IRC and running them by the community before implementation.
As I had stated earlier on in this post, that's what I was thinking. But it just loops back around to what admin you get on what day, etc.

I'll sit down when I have a day off and redefine the rules a bit more to be more flexible.
Last edited by Metal on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Let's Talk

#93

Post by mifu » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:20 pm

Ok, time to post my opinion, Ive only got a few points as others have either hit the nail on the head or as being an aussie irc op, I can not comment on some.

First I need to get something of my chest.

I do not know why Spak was dragged into this nor the fact that Spak got some blame. As a matter in fact I have not seen spak around in ages until their group got mentioned in this very thread, and sure I may not seem active but it does not mean I know whats up in my opinion (bear in mind, feel free to contest this).

If people do feel if we are letting people get away with things and providing "protection" or simply favoring a particular group then we do need to know, and we will talk about it.

Now, onward with my opinions regarding one main thing.

As an IRC op, I do notice the different punishments for different people, mainly on IRC. So when Metal gets time to redefine the rules I will be around to help her to get some ideas.

What I would like to know is "scope". Scope is important seeing as if bans are different for some people. When we talk about scope of how to make bans equal, are we talking about that all punishments are the same on all services? ex: Trolling on IRC is like trolling on the forums, it earns you a x month/s ban regardless where you do it and happens to every user who commits the rule break regardless? or is it service local. For example on irc, trolling earns you x month ban but on the forums it could be different?

Note that each service may have different rules like In game, it would be the server owners choice if they want to ban you from their server etc, all that common stuff.

For now, that's all I got. Will post more once I finish scanning though this thread.

Also keep in mind, if there is feedback regarding IRC related things. Let the IRC Ops know or post in here, which ever one is easier for you :)
Last edited by mifu on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Let's Talk

#94

Post by one_Two » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:35 pm

Metal wrote:
I personally had no clue about the picture of mobius on SpakCTF. If it was hosted on the master server, the punishment for such things is to ban the server IP itself from hosting. There's already some IP's on that list that have used porn, offensive server names or really graphic, uh....furry stuff.

Looking at the master server policy it doesn't say anything about offensive content hosted on the server itself, only the name or what the dl site is. Cos I'd have thought having porn in a wad would've been alright (unless I'm not understanding this).

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RE: Let's Talk

#95

Post by Metal » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:06 pm

one_Two wrote:
Metal wrote:
I personally had no clue about the picture of mobius on SpakCTF. If it was hosted on the master server, the punishment for such things is to ban the server IP itself from hosting. There's already some IP's on that list that have used porn, offensive server names or really graphic, uh....furry stuff.

Looking at the master server policy it doesn't say anything about offensive content hosted on the server itself, only the name or what the dl site is. Cos I'd have thought having porn in a wad would've been alright (unless I'm not understanding this).
89.138.*.*:[IS]Grandvoid - Server Impersonation (Not real Grandvoid) - 89.138.1.243
98.194.88.162:Server spam with inappropriate names
//37.153.1.44:botspam <- promised he won't do it again, but keep watch -HW
65.32.220.57:[TX]Grandvoid impersonation
23.29.8.13:Shadowfox/Shadowcat/Cybercat/etc banned user hosting servers
67.244.154.20:Inappropriate server name
66.20.38.107:Inappropriate server name
173.32.191.10:Inappropriate server name 11/4/12
98.163.233.96:Inappropriate server name 11/4/12
173.88.37.193:"B's Awesome Megaman Server of Death"; LMS server filled with bots, apparently made to troll MM8BDM players?
46.4.170.*:"Forgotten Warriors" (Capodecima's proxy domain, retrieved from Watermelon) - 46.4.170.250 - Feb 6th 2013
187.127.26.54:Brazillian server impersonating BE
70.53.30.*:Offensive server name - 70.53.30.92 - March 31st 2013
172.8.81.99:Impersonating servers/Full of bots - March 13th 2013
99.20.213.*:Racial slur as server name - 99.20.213.207 - April 6th 2013
174.44.189.*:Racial slur as server name - 174.44.189.242 - April 7th 2013
173.81.45.*:[US] -->Grandvoid--> Duel32 (Server impersonation (pussylover)) - 173.81.45.36 - April 19th 2013
75.164.218.*:Racial slur as server name - 75.164.218.39 - April 25th 2013
70.77.73.37:Inappropriate server name - "Shitcunt" July 1st 2013
190.119.40.101:Impersonating BE
5.39.2.*:Non-temporary bot server - 5.39.2.84 - July 6th 2013
85.180.47.*:Hosting wads that heavily alter client settings (baronofvr) - 85.180.47.245 - July 22nd 2013
76.65.123.*:Racial slur as server name - September 9th 2013 - 76.65.123.21

Hmm, you're right. I think I was thinking back from ST. The only ones on there now are offensive server names...So if the case came up where a picture of mobius was in a wad, I wouldn't have known regardless since it was never reported because it's not against any rules. I don't even know if it CAN be a rule, given the fact that it's up to the server host to deal with that sort of thing (I think).
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RE: Let's Talk

#96

Post by Ænima » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:10 pm

Metal wrote: I personally had no clue about the picture of mobius on SpakCTF. If it was hosted on the master server, the punishment for such things is to ban the server IP itself from hosting. There's already some IP's on that list that have used porn, offensive server names or really graphic, uh....furry stuff.
... Does SMHQ count?
Metal wrote:

Code: Select all

85.180.47.*:Hosting wads that heavily alter client settings (baronofvr)
I'm gonna guess it was UACMN? lol
Metal wrote: So if the case came up where a picture of mobius was in a wad, I wouldn't have known regardless since it was never reported because it's not against any rules. I don't even know if it CAN be a rule, given the fact that it's up to the server host to deal with that sort of thing (I think).
While I'm against censorship of wads, I think that maliciously putting somebody's picture in your mod (especially if you shooped it) is a really dick move, even if that person deserves it. Like, if someone used my face in a map as a joke or something, I'd be fine with that. But if they if they photoshopped a bunch of dicks in my mouth, then I might have a problem with that.

But before making the brash move of banning an IP from hosting because of a slanderous picture (whether the host knew it was there or not), an attempt should be made to contact the wad author and ask him to remove the pic, but only if the subject himself has a problem with it.
Last edited by Ænima on Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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infurnus
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RE: Let's Talk

#97

Post by infurnus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:12 pm

Since this topic has taken tons of twists & turns in terms of subjects and topics, etc., I have taken the liberty of making a more specific staff reform thread: http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3555

This thread seems to have run its course for the most part. For now, I'm locking this thread, but know that our community is free to talk to us and make a new thread.

If you have more things to say please use the new thread.

Locked