Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
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Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
I don't intend to discuss reasons for banning, neither to ask for unbanning me. I understand your position and I would like to talk a little about the ban system.
I don't understand one thing: are you trying to show off your power and influence over other players with master-bans, or are you trying to make the game better by driving off cheaters, trolls and other scum?
If first, then I've wasted my time writing this and you may read no further.
Or, if you answer is the latter, I have a few propositions for you:
1) Specify ban's ending date and banner's nickname in "Emergency master banlist" thread
2) You should use Nickname Control to manage control over players, (I'll explain why below)
3) And don't meddle with players's affairs that much. Let them handle their own business by themselves. And if anyone finds himself uncomfortable while playing, he should use server-ban instead of master-ban. Because master-ban should be used only in critical situations, not just because someone said a few bad words to someone.
So, why am I against master-bans? Because they've not enough positive effect.
When I first downloaded Skulltag, my IP was already banned. I was confused, since I didn't even start playing. But it was easier for me to change my IP than finding out why my IP was banned and asking to get it unbanned.
And now:
178.120.*.*:Utsuho - Clan impseronation/Trolling - 178.120.226.67 - Nov 20th 2012
178.121.9.*:Utsuho Reiuji - Ban evasion - 178.121.9.90 - Dec 7th 2012
Yeah, I'm banned. So what? Do you really think that I can't access Zandronum?
Are you going to ban all "Player"s now? Didn't you think that there may be other people that use the same IP as mine? I know such people personally. But even if you ban all 178.*.*.* branch, you won't get rid of me. I can easily acquire an IP from another branch without using proxy or vpn (even though I also could use them).
In the end you'd get only an extra-wide ip ban list, but I'd still be around. I just like Doom that much. Let's be honest here: the only thing that you can do to me - restrict my authorisation. In other words, control my nickname. It doesn't matter if you'll do that with account systems or anyhow else, because I always can overcome this sort of control by entering as a new player. And if I couldn't even do that - I doubt that it would be possible for real new players to join. Then again, I have an advantage over them, because complicated registration systems usually scare newbies off. That's why I proposed that second proposition. The main difference between accounts and nickname control would be that the latter doesn't gather unnecessary IP data from players.
Let's look at the situation from the other view.
93.77.*.*:Dmitry - Crashing servers. 93.77.114.102 - December 13th 2012
I know this person. He uses a dynamic IP on 93.77.*.* branch, as well as a good person nicknamed Cyrus, who didn't do anything bad, but got banned too. And I even can prove that those two are not the same person. But here's the problem: you can't ban one of them by IP without banning the other one. And those two aren't the only example.
What to do? I said that already. Maybe it's not the most effective solution, but master-ban is even worse. Account system isn't going to do well too, since we can't be sure that 93.77.*.* branch is used only by those two. If you want to get rid of someone on a certain server, use server-ban.
So, are you going to persist on unnecessary master-bans, pray to account system, or think this over a little bit?
At least I've been frank with you.
I don't understand one thing: are you trying to show off your power and influence over other players with master-bans, or are you trying to make the game better by driving off cheaters, trolls and other scum?
If first, then I've wasted my time writing this and you may read no further.
Or, if you answer is the latter, I have a few propositions for you:
1) Specify ban's ending date and banner's nickname in "Emergency master banlist" thread
2) You should use Nickname Control to manage control over players, (I'll explain why below)
3) And don't meddle with players's affairs that much. Let them handle their own business by themselves. And if anyone finds himself uncomfortable while playing, he should use server-ban instead of master-ban. Because master-ban should be used only in critical situations, not just because someone said a few bad words to someone.
So, why am I against master-bans? Because they've not enough positive effect.
When I first downloaded Skulltag, my IP was already banned. I was confused, since I didn't even start playing. But it was easier for me to change my IP than finding out why my IP was banned and asking to get it unbanned.
And now:
178.120.*.*:Utsuho - Clan impseronation/Trolling - 178.120.226.67 - Nov 20th 2012
178.121.9.*:Utsuho Reiuji - Ban evasion - 178.121.9.90 - Dec 7th 2012
Yeah, I'm banned. So what? Do you really think that I can't access Zandronum?
Are you going to ban all "Player"s now? Didn't you think that there may be other people that use the same IP as mine? I know such people personally. But even if you ban all 178.*.*.* branch, you won't get rid of me. I can easily acquire an IP from another branch without using proxy or vpn (even though I also could use them).
In the end you'd get only an extra-wide ip ban list, but I'd still be around. I just like Doom that much. Let's be honest here: the only thing that you can do to me - restrict my authorisation. In other words, control my nickname. It doesn't matter if you'll do that with account systems or anyhow else, because I always can overcome this sort of control by entering as a new player. And if I couldn't even do that - I doubt that it would be possible for real new players to join. Then again, I have an advantage over them, because complicated registration systems usually scare newbies off. That's why I proposed that second proposition. The main difference between accounts and nickname control would be that the latter doesn't gather unnecessary IP data from players.
Let's look at the situation from the other view.
93.77.*.*:Dmitry - Crashing servers. 93.77.114.102 - December 13th 2012
I know this person. He uses a dynamic IP on 93.77.*.* branch, as well as a good person nicknamed Cyrus, who didn't do anything bad, but got banned too. And I even can prove that those two are not the same person. But here's the problem: you can't ban one of them by IP without banning the other one. And those two aren't the only example.
What to do? I said that already. Maybe it's not the most effective solution, but master-ban is even worse. Account system isn't going to do well too, since we can't be sure that 93.77.*.* branch is used only by those two. If you want to get rid of someone on a certain server, use server-ban.
So, are you going to persist on unnecessary master-bans, pray to account system, or think this over a little bit?
At least I've been frank with you.
- HeavenWraith
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
We have been aware of this problem for quite some, we have contemplated numerous possible methods to restrict access without relying on IPs. That being said, everything identification method discussed was either very easy to spoof or very hard to implement. I can't really see your suggestions working because... well, they won't solve anything. Also, you forgot whitelisting, though that doesn't really change the fact that banning by IPs is still very very bad. One can only hope for IPv6 to come soon....
[18:55] <Decay> if you're upset, it is your obligation to make someone else upset
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
We masterban people to rid the community of people who are breaking the rules.Utsuho Reiuji wrote: I don't understand one thing: are you trying to show off your power and influence over other players with master-bans, or are you trying to make the game better by driving off cheaters, trolls and other scum?
All our bans correspond with the rules seen here:
http://zandronum.com/forum/announcements.php?aid=17
Some dates aren't specified yet. The only dates that are put on there, are the dates they were banned. Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.1) Specify ban's ending date and banner's nickname in "Emergency master banlist" thread
This is already followed. People usually use server bans for minor things and don't meddle with server hosts unless absolutely unnecessary. There are rules for hosting as well.3) And don't meddle with players's affairs that much. Let them handle their own business by themselves. And if anyone finds himself uncomfortable while playing, he should use server-ban instead of master-ban. Because master-ban should be used only in critical situations, not just because someone said a few bad words to someone.
So, why am I against master-bans? Because they've not enough positive effect.
http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=774
Right there. Master bans have kept MANY cheaters out of the Zandronum picture. While there are people we have trouble banning, that doesn't mean we should let them roam free, you included. Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return. Our only current way to ban people who break the rules is by IP. That is not something completely decided by staff, but the devs as well.
If you're caught, the IP you're playing with will be banned and your ban will extend 3 months for each evasion. Thanks for reporting yourself.Are you going to ban all "Player"s now? Didn't you think that there may be other people that use the same IP as mine? I know such people personally. But even if you ban all 178.*.*.* branch, you won't get rid of me. I can easily acquire an IP from another branch without using proxy or vpn (even though I also could use them).
Server bans use the same method as the master server...How would this accomplish anything different if a user is a widespread problem?use server-ban.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
What is prevents you from doing this?Metal wrote: Some dates aren't specified yet
I meant, nickname of banner's, person who setting this ban.Metal wrote: Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.
Do not you think that those who know how to inject cheats in Zandronum engine, should know what to do in case of being caught?Metal wrote: Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return.
This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.
Where I said that I evade master-ban second time? My PC has broken, I cant turn it on. Now I'm using my old laptop, which too weak for running Zandronum. So I went in ZDaemon.
Trust the word or demand the proof?
But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
Last edited by Utsuho Reiuji on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- HeavenWraith
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
First of all, we usually masterban users based on server host or player reports (seldom on original research). Second, I myself am one of Grandvoid administrators, and I'm sometimes personally involved in researching/discussing cases that end up in masterbans (or global GV bans). We (master server admins) wouldn't be doing if this if we were not familiar with the situation at hand. And last point - you base your assumptions on a few isolated cases. Don't think some people can take that for granted.Utsuho Reiuji wrote: This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
Like I said, whitelisting.Utsuho Reiuji wrote: But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
[18:55] <Decay> if you're upset, it is your obligation to make someone else upset
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
I think you totally missed the point when Metal said The server bans use the same method as the master server.Utsuho Reiuji wrote:This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.
Other details
Both of those use IP bans which is a problem for both Server admins and the master. A server cluster can accidentally ban innocents without knowing. Could you propose another solution?
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
Can't really understand what the hell you're saying or trying to say but I'll try.Utsuho Reiuji wrote:What is prevents you from doing this?Metal wrote: Some dates aren't specified yetI meant, nickname of banner's, person who setting this ban.Metal wrote: Nicknames are already in the master list and the emergency master list.Do not you think that those who know how to inject cheats in Zandronum engine, should know what to do in case of being caught?Metal wrote: Lots of cheaters have been faced with the master ban and haven't been able to return.Metal wrote: Thanks for reporting yourself.
...
Server bans use the same method as the master server...
We stopped putting the names of the admins who ban people on the master list as well as dates to be released so people would be more inclined to join the #staff channel over bans rather than bugging people via PM about it.
Not all people who cheat know how to evade bans. We've had many people come into the #staff channel and say they're banned and "I never cheated! It was my friend/brother/aunt/uncle/long lost alien half step sister". Then proceed to claim they can't get past the ban.
The first sentence I don't understand. I play very often. You are naive to think that I don't alias in-game. I have my own reasons for doing so. Just because you don't see me, doesn't mean I'm not there...But how would you see me in game if you're banned and now claim you're not ban evading? Hmm?This incompetence show a big difference between you and server's administrations (server host). they are approximately know who is playing on their servers, unlike you.
Metal, don't tell me that you playing often. I have never seen you in game.
Where I said that I evade master-ban second time? My PC has broken, I cant turn it on. Now I'm using my old laptop, which too weak for running Zandronum. So I went in ZDaemon.
Trust the word or demand the proof?
But most important question for me remains unanswered. What you will to do with Dmitry and Cyrus?
"Where I said that I evade master-ban second time?" You just did.
As for those two people you are asking about, they remained banned until further notice and we whitelist anyone who has been caught in their range, which so far, is nobody.
Last edited by Metal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
How it can help, if these two using dynamic IP in same range?HeavenWraith wrote: Like I said, whitelisting.
In case of server-ban, I can come to the server, where I know adminmifu wrote: I think you totally missed the point when Metal said The server bans use the same method as the master server.
In case of master-ban, I can't do nothing in except ban evasion. (or leaving in ZD)
I suppose you know, that if you're not familiar with the administration, you may be banned by any ridiculous reason. and it's not only my own opinion.
In except nickname control? you may set password on all servers. you may set registration system with binding by phone number or passport data. but better to upgrade engine protection.mifu wrote: Could you propose another solution?
In other words, I have no effective solution too. I tryed to found solution, which should be not so aggressive against players. and if I find one more - I'll let you know
I didn't played until 20th nov? Hmm?Metal wrote:But how would you see me in game if you're banned and now claim you're not ban evading? Hmm?
Can't you see the difference between the possibilities and actions?Metal wrote: "Where I said that I evade master-ban second time?" You just did.
In case with dynamic IP in same 93.77.*.* branch?Metal wrote: As for those two people you are asking about, they remained banned until further notice and we whitelist anyone who has been caught in their range, which so far, is nobody.
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
Utsuho Reiuji wrote: I didn't played until 20th nov? Hmm?
178.121.9.*:Utsuho Reiuji - Ban evasion - 178.121.9.90 - Dec 7th 2012
...People are not going to give out that sort of information willingly online.In except nickname control? you may set password on all servers. you may set registration system with binding by phone number or passport data. but better to upgrade engine protection.
In other words, I have no effective solution too. I tryed to found solution, which should be not so aggressive against players. and if I find one more - I'll let you know
Last edited by Metal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
RE: Master Policy Reforms
Utsuho does have a point though.
The only reason account systems work with other games is because you have to PAY for them. Not often comes a ban evader because if you ban evade you have to make a whole new account AND buy the game again.
Zandronum has no such qualms, it will be impossible to detect the difference between new accounts and ban evading attempts if an account system is put in place, there is no system which will prevent people from accessing the servers with a simple VPN.
The only reason account systems work with other games is because you have to PAY for them. Not often comes a ban evader because if you ban evade you have to make a whole new account AND buy the game again.
Zandronum has no such qualms, it will be impossible to detect the difference between new accounts and ban evading attempts if an account system is put in place, there is no system which will prevent people from accessing the servers with a simple VPN.
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
Ah, this I can understand. But yes, I thought about this ever since the account system was brought up...How will we know who is genuine and who is creating accounts to ban evade. Even under a completely new IP we would never know.Llewellyn wrote: Utsuho does have a point though.
The only reason account systems work with other games is because you have to PAY for them. Not often comes a ban evader because if you ban evade you have to make a whole new account AND buy the game again.
Zandronum has no such qualms, it will be impossible to detect the difference between new accounts and ban evading attempts if an account system is put in place, there is no system which will prevent people from accessing the servers with a simple VPN.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
RE: Master Policy Reforms
The best way to deal with these people is through Hardware IP.
Cyber: was chased by cowboys
Nautilus: Cowboys? more like a buncha kids chasing a fucking ice cream truck
BEST.EVER.UnixAssassin wrote: The definition of cheating is not this: Using an aim assisting tool in a game
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RE: Master Policy Reforms
Llewellyn, I like it. I support your idea. In this case, we can at least hope for a fair investigation.
It's simply. We are evading bans - you are earning money.
Do you need to know this?Metal wrote: How will we know who is genuine and who is creating accounts to ban evade. Even under a completely new IP we would never know.
It's simply. We are evading bans - you are earning money.
RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
How do you earn money on Doom? That's what I'm wondering.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
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RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
IDL Doomer Dollars.Ivan wrote: How do you earn money on Doom? That's what I'm wondering.
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RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
Yeah, very funny!
What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
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RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
What does any of this have to do with money...I don't make any money off this.
<EazyDI>harrased me
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
<EazyDI>and called me a dinner
<EazyDI>n*****
<EazyDI>lmao not dinner
RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
I'd say licensing is why there can be no money for account creation here. This game is still a property of ID software :PUtsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!
What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===
RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
Well we can argue that we're charging money for use of our privatized service, independent of what IWAD is being played.Ivan wrote:I'd say licensing is why there can be no money for account creation here. This game is still a property of ID software :PUtsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!
What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
... But that's still a dumb idea. Zandronum should never involve real money of any sort. This is a *free* community. Any payments involved should be small donations to help pay for hosting the forums/master server.
Speaking of which, who hosts/pays for the master server?
Doom64: Unabsolved: New weapons, monsters, and gameplay features for coop !
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Doom64: Unabsolved: New weapons, monsters, and gameplay features for coop !
ZandroSkins: a pack made by our community
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RE: Ban discussion [split from Master Policy Reforms]
You got to be kidding... ZDaemon User Registration was one of the problems for ZDaemon. No one likes to be forced to use a singular name, no one likes to be forced log in. Also this has nothing to do on how getting banned as Pre-1.09 ZDaemon, you could alias and still ban evaded. Also what prevents making paying accounts?Utsuho Reiuji wrote: Yeah, very funny!
What you should to do first for playing ZDaemon? Right, log-in with your accout.
What is prevents you from making here same thing with paying accounts here?
Webmoney will be acceptable option for me.
Oh I don't know:
* Lack of userbase that warrants such a system like World Of Warcraft and League Of Legend.
* It'll make players of all sorts to leave the port.(as do any games/forums/communities that were free for a long time now suddenly turn into paying cash cows)
* Not to mention the legal problems with id and the Zdanro 's admin team as they are profiting off their game; it doesn't matter who runs the game server, the master server or the port. If you are making people pay to play on a game that you don't own, you're going to get sued. Esp. when you're making large amounts of money off it.
I'm reading what you're proposing in your other posts and I can't take you seriously.... not at all. You're asking information that only the totalitarianism government in George Orwell's 1984 would be getting. You have a serious lack of understanding to right of privacy, info-technology and even the minor politics of running a community. Please, stop giving ideas... we don't need them nor do we want them.
Last edited by Reach Term on Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.