Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

Off-topic chat. Real talk.

Weapon RNG or No weapon RNG

Keeping the RNG for weapons
15
50%
Removing the RNG for weapons
15
50%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#41

Post by Mobius » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am
I am contrarian every post
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#42

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:12 am

Here you all go. All vanilla speeds, spreads but improved RNG and damage.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#43

Post by Doomkid » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:26 am

Sweet, this is going to go well with pro duel in my skins folder [/stolen joke]
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#44

Post by Zakken » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am

Mobius wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am
I reduce others' statements to memetic garbage to make myself look intelligent
My stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"

That's hardly an opinion that only I have, and the majority of voters stand against RNG as well, so I guess that makes us all contrarians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#45

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:29 am

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:50 am
Doomkid wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:09 am
But aren't spawnkill chains a matter of luck as well? You can get lucky and get a bunch in a row or be unlucky and never get them, just depends on the luck of each round. How is it different from RNG in that sense? It's still luck having a big influence on the outcome of the game.
Exactly. As I said, can of worms. If you wanna start working on removing RNG elements from the game, you can't discriminate between damage tables, bullet/pellet spreads, spawns, etc., if you really want to achieve that goal. Sticking to a middle ground of sorts will only leave both purists and anti-RNG players unhappy.
The thing what you all seem to misunderstand is that removing weapon rng barely changes anything gameplay related. It only improves the competitivity of this game albeit slightly. As I've stated numerous times before weapon rng doesn't really add anything to the game. Whether you keep it in or remove it, you won't feel any change to the usual gameplay. Removing other rng factors like how spawns are generated will without a doubt make Doom even more competitive, it will also significantly change the gameplay. Which way more people (myself included) will be against.

Since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over, I'll explain for the last time what my point is with this thread. The reason why I'm pro-removing weapon RNG is because it doesn't add anything to the game. It's just a flaw in this game, that easily can be fixed without anyone even noticing it.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#46

Post by Doomkid » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:08 am

And we've all made our cases and points as well. I don't think RNG makes the game "non competitive" for the reasons I've already stated. It's a matter we all seem to disagree on, it's always been a divisive topic. I'm guessing this is why it hasn't been implemented in dmflag form as well - No one ever agrees what is and is not worth changing. I feel like the best course of action is to just use/make whatever mods suit your tastes and if you really want people to play using it, start a server with it, otherwise very few will want to host it themselves for (insert reasons X Y and Z here). I don't mean this in a negative way or anything but it's a topic that's been discussed quite a lot over the years and the results are always the same.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#47

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am

Doomkid wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:08 am
And we've all made our cases and points as well. I don't think RNG makes the game "non competitive" for the reasons I've already stated. It's a matter we all seem to disagree on, it's always been a divisive topic. I'm guessing this is why it hasn't been implemented in dmflag form as well - No one ever agrees what is and is not worth changing. I feel like the best course of action is to just use/make whatever mods suit your tastes and if you really want people to play using it, start a server with it, otherwise very few will want to host it themselves for (insert reasons X Y and Z here). I don't mean this in a negative way or anything but it's a topic that's been discussed quite a lot over the years and the results are always the same.
Obviously the game is still competitive with RNG, just less competitive than how it would be without rng. I'll host a server with the rng patch Rust gave and hopefully attract some people with it. So we can properly "test" if it works out or not. Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#48

Post by Fused » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:26 pm

Galactus wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am
Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.
And what should it default to? The median of whatever the random supplies? Would this cvar only be valid with stock Doom 2 weapons or just every random damage value actors supply?

I'm totally in for this, but I feel like the result should be discussed.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#49

Post by Galactus » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:10 pm

Fused wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:26 pm
Galactus wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:56 am
Though maybe the best way of going would be to make no rng a toggleable CVAR.
And what should it default to? The median of whatever the random supplies? Would this cvar only be valid with stock Doom 2 weapons or just every random damage value actors supply?

I'm totally in for this, but I feel like the result should be discussed.
I don't really know how CVAR's work aside from the fact that they're toggleable. But yeah the median would be the best to set the damage too.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#50

Post by Mobius » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:21 pm

Zakken wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:17 am
Mobius wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:40 am
I reduce others' statements to memetic garbage to make myself look intelligent
My stance this whole thread has been that of being against RNG, but restated that changing weapon RNG alone wouldn't provide significant change to anything, and that there would still be other RNG factors to take care of (in which case, I'd consider the effort -> payoff worth to be very unsatisfying). If one is going to get their hands dirty changing the game, they shouldn't half-ass it and instead go all-in with squashing all elements of randomness the game has to offer, because changing only a select few things will lead to anti-RNG types (myself included) questioning "ok, but why didn't you change this one RNG element though?"

That's hardly an opinion that only I have, and the majority of voters stand against RNG as well, so I guess that makes us all contrarians. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No-RNG will change the game significantly depending on the values you give to each pellet/projectile because now you have fixed damage. That means if we go by plasma balls maximum damage output of 40 per projectile then 3 shots will kill a player instantly in a very short stream. 4 shots with green armor and blue armor. You'll have to now "balance" the values assigned to each ball so they do not just crush a player on specific duel maps, and plasma projectiles are faster than Doommarine's speed at 875 Map Units Per Second (I don't know how many "clickclacks" that is). Rockets don't travel that fast ( 700 MUPS) which are slower than Doommarine with SR40. The firing rate of Plasma is greater than rockets. This isn't including hitscan weaponry at max values with sg doing 105 with all pallets hitting and ssg doing 300.

And if you want to fix all RNG that includes weapon patterns for hitscan too. You're going to get hyper-air tight death weapons that are glorified sniper rifles depending on the pattern you select. This is why I suggested to just tighten the ridiculous RNG ranges so it isn't like 4 to 40 or some such stupid shit like that. The game's spawning RNG is a small price to pay if it means the weapon RNG is fixed a bit. Now it means players get super punished for an error but don't need to worry about a weapon failing on them in the same shooting ranges of an opponent.

And in general: why not just add a check that diminishes the chance of repeated values from occurring in a succession. So a player doesn't get seeded to the same spawn location after a set number of times. This will probably fix the ungodly chance of ending up in the same location on repeat when fighting someone. The game shouldn't be completely redone where it isn't anything resembling the original play but subtle changes that can incorporate future updates at a later time with a better foundation for it.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#51

Post by Empyre » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:52 pm

How about (for example) instead of rolling a 4-sided die and multiplying that by 10, we take 10 4-sided dice and add them up? The result will have the same range of possible values, but it will be very heavily weighted to the middle.

If you are going to have fixed damage, it should be the average (mean) value of the random damage, not the max or min.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#52

Post by Lollipop » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:10 pm

Regarding random spawns, what about this?:
When killed by someone, spawn at a spawn point that is some minimum distance away from the killer.

That way it is still random, which means that neither player really knows where the killed player respawns, but the player won't spawn right next to his killer.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#53

Post by Mobius » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:01 pm

Lollipop wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:10 pm
Regarding random spawns, what about this?:
When killed by someone, spawn at a spawn point that is some minimum distance away from the killer.

That way it is still random, which means that neither player really knows where the killed player respawns, but the player won't spawn right next to his killer.
SV_SpawnFarthest
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#54

Post by Lollipop » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pm

Did you even bother to actually read what I wrote? SV_SpawnFarthest is deterministic, and I suggest randomly choosing between spawn points at a minimum distance from the killer to mitigate the determinism. A middle ground meant to preserve the element of randomness without getting spawnkilled a dozen times in a row.

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#55

Post by Mobius » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:39 pm

Lollipop wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:34 pm
Did you even bother to actually read what I wrote? SV_SpawnFarthest is deterministic, and I suggest randomly choosing between spawn points at a minimum distance from the killer to mitigate the determinism. A middle ground meant to preserve the element of randomness without getting spawnkilled a dozen times in a row.
Chill. SV_Spawnfarthest sounds exactly as you described earlier. You said "minimum distance" and the avoidance of spawn fragging. That's what spawnfarthest does.
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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#56

Post by Combinebobnt » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:35 am

spawnfarthest is maximum distance

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Re: Weapon RNG vs No Weapon RNG

#57

Post by Galactus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:39 pm

It's literally in the name, lol.

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