Zandronum

the general consensus I gleaned from player attitudes ranged from: "nothing changed" to "substantially worse"

personally: I don't think it is working as intended. perhaps it is a server thing, although when I played 3.0 it felt much better. shots that hit 100% on 3.0 are not nearly as reliable on 3.1

I haven't noticed a difference except for the servers becoming utter crap once a certain point of the night has been reached

but the new uncapped framerate mouse support makes me cream my diapers soggy... too bad I don't use uncapped

i thought they didnt fix the buffer yet aka nothing actually happened...

idk what all the rush for 'zan 1.4' was then... they wanted this gametic unlagged... oops?

https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365
https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p110365

I'll be the first one to pop the bubble that says "nothing changed" and state that this is the worst Zandro version by far.
It may be friendly towards low-pingers, sure, but the unlagged mechanic that was in 2.1 just seems to not exist anymore - I drop shots 80% of the time and that hinders me greatly as a mainly defensive player.

I've been playing Doom for over 10 years so I am confident in my ability to aim at a target correctly. It makes absolutely no sense in how I shoot someone while moving and they're directly in front of me, but the bullets spread all over to the left wall. On older Zandro versions I have never, not once, had this issue, not even with over 250 ping.

It's not even about being rusty - The port sucks. I really hate how I have to drag my team down because of the port screwing up my abilities.

Moti wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:24 am

I'll be the first one to pop the bubble that says "nothing changed" and state that this is the worst Zandro version by far.
It may be friendly towards low-pingers, sure, but the unlagged mechanic that was in 2.1 just seems to not exist anymore - I drop shots 80% of the time and that hinders me greatly as a mainly defensive player.

I've been playing Doom for over 10 years so I am confident in my ability to aim at a target correctly. It makes absolutely no sense in how I shoot someone while moving and they're directly in front of me, but the bullets spread all over to the left wall. On older Zandro versions I have never, not once, had this issue, not even with over 250 ping.

It's not even about being rusty - The port sucks. I really hate how I have to drag my team down because of the port screwing up my abilities.

Don't blame the port, blame the person. You know who to blame I hope.

Literally the exact same as 3.0 on NJ. The only difference is that it's hosted by a delusional person.

To be honest I haven't played 3.0 that much because it came out during a long inactivity I had, so I honestly don't know how much it compares to 3.1.
I've been comparing it to 2.1 in my previous post.

I've had a more positive experience, but I'm not sure if it's the server or the port, if it's the port then 3.1 is by far the best for me, but if it's the server then it's probably going to be "nothing changed".

The better question is, was 2.1.2 better than 3.0 and 3.1 after all? Man i coulda swore i said to use 2.1.2 but oh well, maybe next time the league can use 4.0

3 things to note:

1. The version used in GDA won't be changed mid-season (for better or worse);
2. Not everybody will have the same gameplay experience in any multiplayer Doom port. Some players have different network settings. Some players have lower ping than others. Some players have different hardware that might cause input lag issues. Some players have different operating systems. Some players use third-party software that might conflict with the game to some capacity. All of these things can turn a port that works perfectly fine for one person into an inconsistent mess for somebody else. It shouldn't be like this, but such is the way that ZDoom-based ports operate. Ralphis, Alt_Stab, Rude etc. love Odamex, while Denzoa and Avc hate it. Edd loves 3.0, while Water and I loathe it. OurHero, Caution and I like 3.1 over 3.0, but Moti doesn't. Razgriz likes 2.1.2, but GhostKiller doesn't. In the end, there is ZERO consensus on which environment is the best one. I made the call that felt best for me and for most active players;
3. The placebo effect is still definitely a thing, and I don't doubt it's skewed the opinions of some players.

So with that, we're left with 3 options, from highest to lowest priority:

1. Utilise a newer build of 3.1 alpha when next season hits, which is the original plan;
2. Roll all the way back to 2.1.2, a time when people complained about the port less in general;
3. Wait until 3.1 is released proper before hosting another season, which I would not recommend because having nothing to look forward to in Doom sucks.

The consensus is easy, it's whichever is the most widely accepted and stable version is the best to use...2.1.2 > 3.0 = 3.1 math clan on top

Razgriz likes 2.1.2, but GhostKiller doesn't.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but KS was shitting all over 3.0 and 3.1 in discord so I wouldn't seriously use his opinions to counter Raz's here considering he evidently doesn't like any Zan version.

Galactus wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:34 am

Literally the exact same as 3.0 on NJ. The only difference is that it's hosted by a delusional person.

Be careful about comparing 3.0 and 3.1 using my servers as a baseline. FUNCRUSHER uses a patched 3.0 binary that has many of the 3.1 netcode fixes patched in. I'm also running a Vanilla 3.0 and 2.1.2 duel server if you're actually curious about 1:1 comparisons.

Zakken wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:29 pm

1. The version used in GDA won't be changed mid-season (for better or worse)

Why not? This seems like a pretentiously stubborn stance to take, no offense, especially when plenty of people seem to have issues. We're all players here, and from what I gather the people that seem to be benefiting from this the most are at the top of GDA hierarchy, which is probably why it won't change.

After having participated in at least three different GDA priv sessions, I can confidently say this is the worst experience I've ever had in online multiplayer Doom, across about 12 years of play. I don't use third-party anything, and run only Zandronum when I play Zandronum. At the advice of people I've fiddled with network settings and other random shit to see if anything changes, but it only seems to get worse or nothing happens at all. I do not have near as many problems in 3.0. I'm not sure wtf happened from 0 to 1, but it's not pleasant.

The fact that it's being used in a tournament setting, apparently on a whim, against the advice of several vet players is even more mind boggling. And it's an alpha, too, as I understand it. I can't get it on the official Zan website. I had to download it from Discord. That alone should disqualify it from eligibility for 'official' competitive play - the developer of the port hasn't even publicly released it. Never heard of experimental *anything* being used for tourneys. Holy memes, Batman.

Note that this is all taken at face value, and based entirely on my own experiences with 3.0 VS 3.1 as well as words from other peoples' mouths/fingers.

TL;DR - 3.1 is balls, don't use alphas for tournaments, someone needs to pull their heads out of their asses, this is why Doom is dead and I won't be joining GDA next season.

Raddok wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

Why not? This seems like a pretentiously stubborn stance to take, no offense, especially when plenty of people seem to have issues. We're all players here, and from what I gather the people that seem to be benefiting from this the most are at the top of GDA hierarchy, which is probably why it won't change.

After having participated in at least three different GDA priv sessions, I can confidently say this is the worst experience I've ever had in online multiplayer Doom, across about 12 years of play. I don't use third-party anything, and run only Zandronum when I play Zandronum. At the advice of people I've fiddled with network settings and other random shit to see if anything changes, but it only seems to get worse or nothing happens at all. I do not have near as many problems in 3.0. I'm not sure wtf happened from 0 to 1, but it's not pleasant.

The fact that it's being used in a tournament setting, apparently on a whim, against the advice of several vet players is even more mind boggling. And it's an alpha, too, as I understand it. I can't get it on the official Zan website. I had to download it from Discord. That alone should disqualify it from eligibility for 'official' competitive play - the developer of the port hasn't even publicly released it. Never heard of experimental *anything* being used for tourneys. Holy memes, Batman.

Note that this is all taken at face value, and based entirely on my own experiences with 3.0 VS 3.1 as well as words from other peoples' mouths/fingers.

Drop the hostile act, will you?

The main reason why we're not changing versions is that we'd rather not give people any reason to try to invalidate matches that already happened previously. Nothing even close to what you suggested.

The change to 3.1 was approved by most of the people who signed up at the time it was implemented. It also convinced some important players to sign up afterwards as well. You should stop pretending you know more about the circumstances of the change than the team who actually consulted the community and made decisions based on that feedback. Alpha builds also aren't too much of a hassle to set up, given how many players are using it these days, so why does it matter?

Raddok wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

TL;DR - 3.1 is balls, don't use alphas for tournaments, someone needs to pull their heads out of their asses, this is why Doom is dead and I won't be joining GDA next season.

rofl Who even are you? Maybe if you were a name I recognised, your tough guy act would have some effect. :/

EDIT: Ah, so you're IceyKiller. You've still no grounds putting up a needlessly intimidating demeanour -- that just makes your entire post even more ridiculous than it already is.

AlexMax wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:03 am

Be careful about comparing 3.0 and 3.1 using my servers as a baseline. FUNCRUSHER uses a patched 3.0 binary that has many of the 3.1 netcode fixes patched in. I'm also running a Vanilla 3.0 and 2.1.2 duel server if you're actually curious about 1:1 comparisons.

I used NJ as an example because it's hosted with the patch, basically from my perspective 3.0 with the patch = 3.1.

Zakken wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:42 am

Words.

You're getting pretty adhom about this. I'm pointing out facts based on what I've seen and heard - nothing more. How is that hostile? How is that being a tough guy? Don't undermine my words by attaching useless adjectives to them.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you offered an update to 3.1 as an incentive to join the league, but without actually making sure people really wanted it. Does that sound about right? Was there any extensive testing beforehand? Did you bother to run a ton of privs in 3.1 to see if it was better / worse for most? Or did you simply say, "Hey, we're going into 3.1, sign up because it's *probably* better!"

Seems to me like you were desperate for player count, so you held an update to 3.1 hostage, which convinced more people to sign up. With only 6 teams even after the fact, I guess I can understand that. But it's a little deceptive, don't you think?

Raddok wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 pm

I'm pointing out facts based on what I've seen and heard - nothing more.

No. You're making malicious conjecture, which prompted the kind of response you got.

Raddok wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 pm

How is that hostile? How is that being a tough guy?

Listen to yourself:

Raddok wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

Why not? This seems like a pretentiously stubborn stance to take, no offense

Raddok wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

Never heard of experimental *anything* being used for tourneys. Holy memes, Batman.

Raddok wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am

someone needs to pull their heads out of their asses, this is why Doom is dead

Raddok wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 pm

So correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you offered an update to 3.1 as an incentive to join the league, but without actually making sure people really wanted it. Does that sound about right? Was there any extensive testing beforehand? Did you bother to run a ton of privs in 3.1 to see if it was better / worse for most?

If you gave my previous post a proper read, you would've already known that's not how it went at all. Granted, we didn't expect the port to be awfully inconsistent (because even previous versions, good or bad, were at least consistent in how they functioned) so yes, we could have tested more, but we WERE confident that 3.1 would've been an improvement based on the data we got. No probably's there.

Raddok wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:28 pm

Seems to me like you were desperate for player count, so you held an update to 3.1 hostage, which convinced more people to sign up.

First of all, it's perfectly normal to be somewhat "desperate" to have more players if you're organising tournaments for anything at all. Successful tournaments don't come with organisers being nonchalant about how many people will show up. THAT's a fact. Second of all, what the hell is this with "holding 3.1 hostage"? I'm not forcing anybody to sign-up. Everybody had the freedom not to sign up if they weren't comfortable with the switch to 3.1. Deceiving would mean I lied about the version being used, or hid the information about 3.1 until after sign-ups ended -- we did none of those things. So I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop pushing your lunatic "the admins are evil and they're trying to kill Doom!" drivel.