Hosting projects

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Theshooter7
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RE: Hosting projects

#21

Post by Theshooter7 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:45 am

Qent wrote: Replacing actors via an add-on is allowed (and what Doom modding is based on!). People might think you're a jerk if your replacements stray too far from the original design (or they might think you're a genius; who knows?), but they can't prevent you.
This. I can't recall too well at the moment, but I was almost certain Lightman's mod (intentionally or unintentionally) modified the base pk3 with his additional content (as I recall seeing it hosted standalone on a server or two before, without the base mod being loaded).

As for copying code, I personally don't care a whole lot. In fact, I could probably even encourage it, seeing as WDI's Decorate is a bit of a hackish mess in a few places, so I can't blame someone for taking functioning code and making changes to it (in an addon of course) to ensure that it will work correctly. And of course, the ACS source files are free to use whenever and however, as long as credit is given.
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Xenaero
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RE: Hosting projects

#22

Post by Xenaero » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:17 am

I think this is going to cause a lot of headaches with specific terminology and loopholes if you intend to actually enforce this.

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RE: Hosting projects

#23

Post by Metal » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:17 pm

Xenaero wrote: I think this is going to cause a lot of headaches with specific terminology and loopholes if you intend to actually enforce this.
Could you elaborate on some of the loop holes that may occur so we can fix that problem before it becomes apparent?
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Ænima
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RE: Hosting projects

#24

Post by Ænima » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:30 pm

What loophole is there in "do not edit and reupload someone else's work without their permission"?


I mean it's been in the /idgames readme template since like ... forever ...
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Xenaero
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RE: Hosting projects

#25

Post by Xenaero » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 pm

Well, let's start with the main post. First it's said "Hosting users projects is fine but in no way, shape or form should you edit, tamper or add things into the main PK3/Wad file a user has released." then it is said "You may host the file with add-ons, but you may NOT edit the wad without the authors permission.", which implies that while you may not go into the main file and make your own split of it, there's nothing here that prevents someone from making a modification file to overlay on top of the modification to change it how they want. If you think about the recent BE incident that caused things to explode then the same effect is achieved without even touching the base modification.

Coincidentally, you have the line that you may not edit the wad without the author's permission, is this permissable to addon files with the intent to modify the base file without actually editing the file itself? I could go on further down the rabbit hole but you get the point.

Additionally, you have to worry about enforcing this, which will essentially come down to opinionated judgement and that's always a fun little gray area around these parts.

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RE: Hosting projects

#26

Post by Cruduxy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:25 pm

The file at the incident you talk about wasn't similar.. they edited the file of the main author and released their version under a new name.. like effectively saying we fully did this and it isn't an addon.. it wasn't even hosted with wdi.
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Metal
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RE: Hosting projects

#27

Post by Metal » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:24 am

Xenaero wrote: Well, let's start with the main post. First it's said "Hosting users projects is fine but in no way, shape or form should you edit, tamper or add things into the main PK3/Wad file a user has released." then it is said "You may host the file with add-ons, but you may NOT edit the wad without the authors permission.", which implies that while you may not go into the main file and make your own split of it, there's nothing here that prevents someone from making a modification file to overlay on top of the modification to change it how they want. If you think about the recent BE incident that caused things to explode then the same effect is achieved without even touching the base modification.

Coincidentally, you have the line that you may not edit the wad without the author's permission, is this permissable to addon files with the intent to modify the base file without actually editing the file itself? I could go on further down the rabbit hole but you get the point.

Additionally, you have to worry about enforcing this, which will essentially come down to opinionated judgement and that's always a fun little gray area around these parts.
Understand the concern and the loophole, but how would you word a rule to counter all these loopholes? If you have a suggestion, I'm listening.
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RE: Hosting projects

#28

Post by ibm5155 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:13 am

on:So only mods with modded files with no permition´ll get an advice?
then what should be the basic admin server advice?(like i enter on the server and it prints "welcome to x server, warning you could get banned is hack ,...")...

off (maybe):I miss something about grandvoid? does it died,require more money, nuclear problem,..? (Not talking bad about iddqd and be server but on grandvoid i got the lowest ping betwheen this ones :s)
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RE: Hosting projects

#29

Post by ZzZombo » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:00 am

RIP GV 2010.7.18 - 2013.2.12 || GV is gone. || GV is gone. || GV is gone. || GV is gone. || GV murió. || tons of people keep asking where it wen

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RE: Hosting projects

#30

Post by CuddlyZebesian » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:45 am

I find this silly in its own right.

I mean I can understand plagiarism a wee bit and whatnot, but as I'm reading this thread I hear "copyright" and "illegal infringment."

Look, the copyright issue doesn't exist. First of all, you're coding on an engine that is copyrighted by id, using their player actors as well, edited or not. Claiming copyright on a mod (using that word veeeeery strongly here) is inert, ineffective, blablabla, you just can't do it. Now if it's a "dun take credit for other people's stuff" rule, then that's understandable, but the way it's worded in the thread is like there's a threat of lawsuit, which would get you laughed out of the lawyer's office. Not to mention id would have your ass on a plate with garnishes and a red wine...and light salad....and a dessert.

Anyway, yea, mod probably dug from code from the original WDI, which is the reason why it IS an addon, not to mention the fact that even the WDI creator took from the original doom 2 wad in one way or another. To even consider flipping over someone else wanting to add some stuff that is completely harmless is overexaggerating the issue, and when it comes down to it, unless the mod actually exploits Zandronum or is completely rule breaking (a porn wad for instance) it really is unnecessary to crack down and start swinging the hammer on anything or anyone that wants to add to things.

As for this add-on, I find it a bit of a fun side compared to the dreary miserable tightly anused original WDI that is still pretty active. The extra rae packs are fun and have new fun things in it, the weapons are entertaining, and no one on that server ever complains about anything because they're too busy having fun. Fun, which the original WDI (no offense) didn't have. It was too serious.

Now for anything similar in particular, there's really no harm in adding on stuff or doing as you please with a mod, whether to improve it or to just add fun things to it, as long as you're not screaming "I SO DID THE ORIGINAL IT WAS MEEEEEEEEE". Of course the copyright thing is completely defunct but unless it's malicious or the extra thingy mod creator is a massive douche, then there's really no need to go flipping over who's needing to ask whose permission. You wouldn't go asking permission from id itself to use their code to make a game, would you?

tl;dr: Screaming copyright infringement is hypocritical, anything not malicious or rule breaking should be let go, and as long as you give credit, you shouldn't be having to ask everyone and their mother permission over a damn mod of a game 20 years old.

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RE: Hosting projects

#31

Post by infurnus » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:39 am

CuddlyZebesian wrote: I mean I can understand plagiarism a wee bit and whatnot, but as I'm reading this thread I hear "copyright" and "illegal infringment."

Look, the copyright issue doesn't exist. First of all, you're coding on an engine that is copyrighted by id, using their player actors as well, edited or not. Claiming copyright on a mod (using that word veeeeery strongly here) is inert, ineffective, blablabla, you just can't do it. Now if it's a "dun take credit for other people's stuff" rule, then that's understandable, but the way it's worded in the thread is like there's a threat of lawsuit, which would get you laughed out of the lawyer's office. Not to mention id would have your ass on a plate with garnishes and a red wine...and light salad....and a dessert.

[ . . . ]

tl;dr: Screaming copyright infringement is hypocritical, anything not malicious or rule breaking should be let go, and as long as you give credit, you shouldn't be having to ask everyone and their mother permission over a damn mod of a game 20 years old.
Open source projects like Zandronum do not infringe copyright. (That's why the skulltag_data packages are not included with its distribution)

"Claiming copyright on", copyright is not something that can be "claimed" or owned, it is a list of rights that individuals or corporations are legally entitled to, over copies made of their work. (Corporations or "rights holders" just have a legal contract that extends these rights to others at the permission of the creator of a product/game/book/etc)

No offense, but I think you should try to at least research a subject before criticizing others over it and crying hypocrisy. It's just not good form.
Last edited by infurnus on Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Hosting projects

#32

Post by Cruduxy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:12 pm

CuddlyZebesian wrote:

As for this add-on, I find it a bit of a fun side compared to the dreary miserable tightly anused original WDI that is still pretty active. The extra rae packs are fun and have new fun things in it, the weapons are entertaining, and no one on that server ever complains about anything because they're too busy having fun. Fun, which the original WDI (no offense) didn't have. It was too serious.
WDI was played for its atmosphere and seriousness beside being very unique in its gameplay. how does those things make it boring? If its personnel taste its still not enough to mark the mod as being boring because thats the reason most of its players found it fun to start up with..
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RE: Hosting projects

#33

Post by CuddlyZebesian » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:23 am

infurnus wrote: Open source projects like Zandronum do not infringe copyright. (That's why the skulltag_data packages are not included with its distribution)

"Claiming copyright on", copyright is not something that can be "claimed" or owned, it is a list of rights that individuals or corporations are legally entitled to, over copies made of their work. (Corporations or "rights holders" just have a legal contract that extends these rights to others at the permission of the creator of a product/game/book/etc)

No offense, but I think you should try to at least research a subject before criticizing others over it and crying hypocrisy. It's just not good form.
I know the subject because I've had to deal with similar people crying over it when it came to art and DMCAs were thrown about like candy in a store. And you can't claim rights over a work unless it's YOUR work. The WDI maker was using textures (some)/engine code from Doom, not to mention sprites as well. And if we're going to cite what you said in the second paragraph, last sentence, there's no contract that legally binds anything. It doesn't and cannot exist. All you would have is a license and you would have to put it under a CC Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs type if you don't want anyone to go messing with anything in it.

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Cruduxy wrote: WDI was played for its atmosphere and seriousness beside being very unique in its gameplay. how does those things make it boring? If its personnel taste its still not enough to mark the mod as being boring because thats the reason most of its players found it fun to start up with..
Well, opinions.

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RE: Hosting projects

#34

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:32 am

Opinions? More like facts. Ask the wad creators.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Hosting projects

#35

Post by CuddlyZebesian » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:40 am

Catastrophe wrote: Opinions? More like facts. Ask the wad creators.
No I mean opinions are gonna differ, whether it fits the intentions or not.

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RE: Hosting projects

#36

Post by infurnus » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:18 am

Please note that there is a case where mods for Doom are allowed to use its resources (modified or otherwise) in mods, as per "fair use" and "remix culture" precedents. Basically, in real world settings people aren't allowed to use any game/movie/song's resources willy-nilly, unless their use qualifies as "fair use" or educational use, etc.

Here's a quote I said when questioned about the legality of a mod last year:
[quote=infurnus]It is considered common courtesy to leave [the source game/etc alone], and only to repurpose it or elements of it with positive intent that doesn't hinder the source work.
The attitude of using its resources just because you don't want to make your own is kind of lazy, but does not exactly constitute copyright infringement.

There's nothing that indicates that you're forced to rip from any game to show your ideas, but there is also no problem in specific with using resources in a creative manner and "remixing" one thing to create a new/different thing.[/quote]
It mostly has to do with preferences and taste, and since we're not Judge, Jury and Executioner, nobody here can state something like this is illegal.

All we can do is just comment on how tasteful it is, or the lack thereof. Free speech isn't illegal, and is a two-way street.
Last edited by infurnus on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Hosting projects

#37

Post by CuddlyZebesian » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:28 am

infurnus wrote: Please note that there is a case where mods for Doom are allowed to use its resources (modified or otherwise) in mods, as per "fair use" and "remix culture" precedents. Basically, in real world settings people aren't allowed to use any game/movie/song's resources willy-nilly, unless their use qualifies as "fair use" or educational use, etc.

Here's a quote I said when questioned about the legality of a mod last year:
infurnus wrote:It is considered common courtesy to leave [the source game/etc alone], and only to repurpose it or elements of it with positive intent that doesn't hinder the source work.
The attitude of using its resources just because you don't want to make your own is kind of lazy, but does not exactly constitute copyright infringement.

There's nothing that indicates that you're forced to rip from any game to show your ideas, but there is also no problem in specific with using resources in a creative manner and "remixing" one thing to create a new/different thing.
It mostly has to do with preferences and taste, and since we're not Judge, Jury and Executioner, nobody here can state something like this is illegal.

All we can do is just comment on how tasteful it is, or the lack thereof. Free speech isn't illegal, and is a two-way street.
Well like I said, the way the guy was talking like it was an absolute thing that it was law breaking (I mean that's what illegal DEFINES.) I mean unless someone wants to define a rule about modding off of others, it's not anything rule breaking.

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RE: Hosting projects

#38

Post by infurnus » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:34 am

I'll clarify: It's not just about copyright, it's about the principle of the matter.

The "Copyright / Permissions" section of the txt file that comes with most projects can't be waived by "copyright doesn't apply to them", it's not about the DMCA or other internet drama, it's basically what I said in my previous post.

If we want to make a rule (and we just did, that's what the OP of this thread was about) saying not to be a jerk and modify other people's projects and upload/host them to the master server, then that's something we're kind of entitled to do.

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RE: Hosting projects

#39

Post by CuddlyZebesian » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:52 am

infurnus wrote: I'll clarify: It's not just about copyright, it's about the principle of the matter.

The "Copyright / Permissions" section of the txt file that comes with most projects can't be waived by "copyright doesn't apply to them", it's not about the DMCA or other internet drama, it's basically what I said in my previous post.

If we want to make a rule (and we just did, that's what the OP of this thread was about) saying not to be a jerk and modify other people's projects and upload/host them to the master server, then that's something we're kind of entitled to do.
Well then I hope the best for your endeavors.

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RE: Hosting projects

#40

Post by Lord Damager » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:59 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT8CAJfK_ZQ

First off, this was started over a misunderstanding about the lightmanwdi mod being a direct edit of the original wdi, when it was just some fun addon wads, right? this video proves it cannot be ran alone without wdi, showing its an ADDON. yes it borrows scripts for wrenches and such, but lightman has stated that and said he has recieved them wdi. theres credit that this aint a copied wdi and hes taking all fucking credit. geez. Lightmanwdi is a fun addon for some people to mix up gameplay and it is not replacing the regular wdi. for fucks sake, there is only one lightwdi server up while there is like 5-6 regular wdi that people play more. this is just a new way to spice things up. and it is opinions whether people like this or not. if they dont like it, DONT PLAY. you dont need to start a shitstorm everywhere over something you dont like. if that was the case, there wouldnt even be a zandronum. And what about the other weapons not made by the officials. and the maps? Marsis flashlight, soulcube, and axe. What about the nailed planks? Hell what about all the addon maps. This is like them, except it just adds new weapons and items. Basically your getting mad over this when credit has been given AND NOT RIPPED, let alone letting every single other thing in. Hell, i dont like capt j3's m1 much, but ya know, i just play with it and deal. Guys, this mod is nothing more then an addon like marsis or castaway, or any other thing that has been added to regular wdi thus far.
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