About mod licensing and the latest thread

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
User avatar
mifu
Topic author
Forum Staff
Offline
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 10:34 am

About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#1 by mifu » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:01 am

Hi folks,

It appears that chaos has erupted.

So recently one of our staff members made a thread about mod licensing and we should enforce some rules in regards to people not following the license. These range from people modifying other mods without permission to just stealing content in general and claiming it that its yours. I told Fused that if he wanted to get staff to start enforcing some stuff like blacklisting servers for instance, the community needed to be on board with it.

It is quite clear that we as a community are not (which does not surprise me) but i feel a bit of miss information has been spread. Some people today have voice their concerns that I was actually going to enforce stuff from this. I'd like to point out that all i did was tell Fused to get opinions on this first. Nothing has been set in stone and nothing will be done about this. We are not enforcing anything in terms of this at all. So those who said you would stop modding for zandronum because of this please rest easy. We aint doing shit.

Now on the other hand, I do get that if someone makes a modification or uses content from another mod with no permission would piss people off. In my honest opinion the community seems to be good at policing this already by naming and shaming and tspg bans the wad in the first place.
Also i'll be disabling the ability to delete forum posts since someone ended up nuking their thread.

User avatar
r4z0r
 
Offline
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:56 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#2 by r4z0r » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:10 am

Nice more shitstorms from community disagreements. Mod licensing sounds pretty silly as it is. I understand that maybe you don't want your project altered, especially without specific permission but personally I feel that that's the risk you're taking when you choose to create a mod for this game or a mod for most other games really. To be disappointing at the end result of the natural "free-market system" of mods that Doom itself uses is no one's fault but your own miscalculations and poor judgement error on your behalf. I don't personally know much about modding though so this doesn't really hold much weight but it's just my two cents as a member of this community.
[18:25:47] <Combinebobnt>: zds://45.58.113.226:10695/za uh sorry link fixed zds:?/45.58.113.226:10695/za
[18:28:17] <JustAPlayer>: sns
[18:28:18] <JustAPlayer>: pffffft
[18:28:22] <JustAPlayer>: Odamexsimulator?

User avatar
Fused
Forum Staff
Offline
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:47 am
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#3 by Fused » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:35 am

Obviously I wasn't just gonna enforce some licence thing because I felt like it was needed, hence the thread asking about the opinion from others. I'm pretty suprised to hear people would rather take a risk with their work rather than having rules, but if the community wants it that way, sure. I obviously wont really bother retrying this due to the responces it had instantly.

User avatar
Zeberpal
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:55 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#4 by Zeberpal » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:40 am

This thread looks like I missed a lot. To be honest just trying to understand how mod licensing would look like and who would be busy doing stuff for it.
Also if someone would violate those license, what would happen next? My bet, at max it would be a a collective rebuke. Nothing that would really protect your intellectual property from stealing and further usage.

User avatar
Ivan
Addicted to Zandronum
Offline
Posts: 1676
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 pm

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#5 by Ivan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:00 pm

I don't even know where the previous thread is.
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===

User avatar
Catastrophe
ZanStuff Reviewer
Offline
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:44 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#6 by Catastrophe » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:32 pm

Sounds like something I'd agree with; there should be some protection for modders to not let their project get pretty much hijacked by imbeciles while the author is still active (see complex doom).

User avatar
Fused
Forum Staff
Offline
Posts: 415
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:47 am
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#7 by Fused » Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:51 pm

Ivan wrote:I don't even know where the previous thread is.

I removed it because it became a shitfest real quick. It only contained a few questions, like whenever this should be take more serious, and if there should be more serious consequences if somebody modifies a mod, makes an addon for a mod or uses resources from a mod without any permission from the creator.
The consequences for use of resources without permission was already considered not doable due to not being able to figure out who really made a resource, so it was more of a question whether it should be figured out how to make that work at al, should people want it.

User avatar
Lollipop
Frequent Poster Miles card holder
Offline
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:34 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#8 by Lollipop » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:22 pm

It is already possible to put a license text file in your mod in order to precify what is okay and what isn't in terms of the resources within the file.

If a mod uses completely from scratch resources, then I am of the personal opinion that the creator of the resources should be in charge of the usage of those.
If I for instance made a mod with my own resources I would be a bit grumpy if I found out that someone used those resources without my permission. I would probably get rather angry.

Naming, shaming and TSPG file bans sound good to me, but I feel like I wouldn't be in anymore of a position to protect my resources in the above case if it happened, especially the second time, the third, fourth and so on. Each time someone illegitimately uses a resource it gets more "out there already" for each time, which I view as a potential problem for a resource holder with interests in keeping their resources restricted to only being used in their own projects or a specific project line for the sake of keeping the resources from becoming commonplace and stale, such as with the R667 resources as many are aware.

IDK, just how I view this as I got something in the works with custom resources. I'll probably never finish like usual, but this state of affairs puts a new perspective on whether making new resources designed for it, or whether a maximum amount of effort, is worth it, as it will potentially just get thrown around everywhere, or even on R667 by some random person.

User avatar
Ivan
Addicted to Zandronum
Offline
Posts: 1676
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 pm

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#9 by Ivan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:28 pm

It seems the actual discussion was a bit different. See: Pastebin
=== RAGNAROK DM ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== ALWAYS BET ON ... uh... dead forever? ===
=== Who wanta sum wang? ===
=== Death and Decay - A new Monster/Weapon replacer ===

User avatar
Dynamo
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 5:16 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#10 by Dynamo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Ivan wrote:I don't even know where the previous thread is.

Here, since quite a few people were wondering. It was removed before I had a chance to further answer and the pastebin shows the follow up to that. Best to clarify this and not leave any open questions really.

User avatar
FascistCat
 
Offline
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:51 pm

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#11 by FascistCat » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:29 pm

Repeating what I said in the other (missing) thread, if there is no legal licensing then there's no point in enforcing users to do/not do things with their creations.

I think things are mixed in here: if you want to establish what can one do with someone's "resources" then include a legal license. If you want to establish what can one do with someone's mod then make a tool or something where mods can be registered and then determine which other 'addons' can be used with it. Cluster-server providers can query that tool, etc.

PD: Too much overreacting to this topic :neutral:

User avatar
Dynamo
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 5:16 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#12 by Dynamo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:42 pm

FascistCat wrote:PD: Too much overreacting to this topic :neutral:

If to you posting logs to clarify people's questions as well as having civil discussion means "overreacting", then I'm going to have to ask if to you the first part of your nickname is accurate, because at least I'm fairly sure you can't be a cat.

User avatar
Mobius
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#13 by Mobius » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:14 am

Catastrophe wrote:Sounds like something I'd agree with; there should be some protection for modders to not let their project get pretty much hijacked by imbeciles while the author is still active (see complex doom).


So I have a question: if someone decided to mod SuperDemon with some whacky shit you didn't agree with but it nets like 20+ players in a server almost daily will you complain about protection or will you embrace that your wad's popularity hit a new recent peak?

Fused wrote: It only contained a few questions, like whenever this should be take more serious, and if there should be more serious consequences if somebody modifies a mod, makes an addon for a mod or uses resources from a mod without any permission from the creator.


Well taking resources from a mod without active permission is a thing in Doom, but I'd agree on taking resources of say ACS, or by scratch sprites for example, and using it not only without permission but claiming it as your own is a concern modders should pay attention to. Fortunately the community polices itself and frowns upon fraudulent behavior of this variety; however, revival of dead projects is only possible if such pseudo-legal impediments did not exist hence the contention of many familiar faces including myself. I believe the license only serves as a pre-answer to the entire community courtesy of asking for permission, but as the examples demonstrated sometimes doing things without the consent of others netted more reward than scorn provided all attributing parts of the mod is still given to its respected maker. I don't condone people modifying works without permission, but for a wad to reach a zenith of popularity sometimes it is necessary to resurrect someone else's works as long as they are still credited and spoken to about it if available (Seiat wasn't when IC became popular again a few months ago).

Even if the wad is currently alive there is NO REASON to really hurt yourself and denying others from potentially adding modifications to it. We modify wads all the time in Zandronum. Do you play AlienVendetta with vanilla Doom? No you patch it with Complex Doom. Every additional pwad you use outside of iwads are modifications and patches to the game, and attempting to get the staff to police your wad for you is as ridiculous as the license itself. You should be happy people are even playing your wad and making patches to it to continue its popularity and longevity. Do you think the creators of say Scythe or Hell Reaveled give a shit how many pwads I stack into it and then have it hosted on a server? N. O. P. E! Lol they're probably happy their wad is being played to this day no matter what manner of cancer is touching it.

Besides we went through a huge staff reformation after a certain administration to decentralize the staff's power. Enforcing a license from Zandronum's side will only reestablish what has been fought for and that's power given to server host. Not like a license means anything if you take resources mainly from realm667 on an engine not yours using Doom2's iwad. What are you claiming? The intellectual property of the wad's name?
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up

"Fool you couldn't roll on me if you were a condom" ~ Godlike


The trouble with loyalty to a cause is that the cause will always betray you

User avatar
Catastrophe
ZanStuff Reviewer
Offline
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:44 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#14 by Catastrophe » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:39 am

Mobius wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:Sounds like something I'd agree with; there should be some protection for modders to not let their project get pretty much hijacked by imbeciles while the author is still active (see complex doom).


So I have a question: if someone decided to mod SuperDemon with some whacky shit you didn't agree with but it nets like 20+ players in a server almost daily will you complain about protection or will you embrace that your wad's popularity hit a new recent peak?


Since I stopped working on it, I'd embrace it. Not really the same situation as complex doom.

User avatar
Cutman
 
Offline
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#15 by Cutman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:03 pm

Doom modding only exists because id were kind enough to give out the source in the first place. If you're willing to create something for it, you should expect people to look at and potentially use it in their own projects as well. Obviously people should ask for permission and credit people where they can, but if you're expecting your content/code to never be copypasted into another wad file in some form or another, you're using the wrong game engine.

Trying to enforce this (especially on servers) will probably invoke more drama than any sane person wants to deal with, so I would advise against it.

User avatar
ibm5155
Addicted to Zandronum
Offline
Posts: 1424
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:32 pm
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#16 by ibm5155 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:04 pm

The best you could do from my knowledge is to lock any kind of server with your mod online with some kind of acs security tool (like the one I send u Fused).
so, host server sends the "id" from his server to you or someone that you thrust and they'll return the magic key that'll unlock their servers.
This way you block any kind of modified server without a mod intervention.
Projects
Cursed Maze: DONE, V2.0
Zombie Horde - ZM09 map update: [3/15/13]
Need help with English? Then you've come to the right place!

<this post is proof of "Decline">

User avatar
Mobius
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#17 by Mobius » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:45 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
Mobius wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:Sounds like something I'd agree with; there should be some protection for modders to not let their project get pretty much hijacked by imbeciles while the author is still active (see complex doom).


So I have a question: if someone decided to mod SuperDemon with some whacky shit you didn't agree with but it nets like 20+ players in a server almost daily will you complain about protection or will you embrace that your wad's popularity hit a new recent peak?


Since I stopped working on it, I'd embrace it. Not really the same situation as complex doom.


Why not? Why does that change with you working on it?
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up

"Fool you couldn't roll on me if you were a condom" ~ Godlike


The trouble with loyalty to a cause is that the cause will always betray you

User avatar
Catastrophe
ZanStuff Reviewer
Offline
Posts: 2136
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:44 am

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#18 by Catastrophe » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:57 pm

Mobius wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:
Mobius wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:Sounds like something I'd agree with; there should be some protection for modders to not let their project get pretty much hijacked by imbeciles while the author is still active (see complex doom).


So I have a question: if someone decided to mod SuperDemon with some whacky shit you didn't agree with but it nets like 20+ players in a server almost daily will you complain about protection or will you embrace that your wad's popularity hit a new recent peak?


Since I stopped working on it, I'd embrace it. Not really the same situation as complex doom.


Why not? Why does that change with you working on it?


Because I firmly believe that if the author is working on a project, it should be a "do not touch" zone for addons. Let the guy finish what he's trying to do first.

User avatar
Mobius
Forum Regular
Offline
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:43 am
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#19 by Mobius » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:58 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
Because I firmly believe that if the author is working on a project, it should be a "do not touch" zone for addons. Once the author is done or gives up, then it's ok to me if someone starts making addons of it.


This may seem a bit redundant to ask but: why should it be off limits?
<+Thomas13> Mobius u r inferior, go outside and get beaten up

"Fool you couldn't roll on me if you were a condom" ~ Godlike


The trouble with loyalty to a cause is that the cause will always betray you

User avatar
Cutman
 
Offline
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:25 pm
Contact:

Re: About mod licensing and the latest thread

Post#20 by Cutman » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:13 pm

I think it's a matter of respect. It's happened to me before, I uploaded a prototype build of a singleplayer/coop expansion for MM8BDM mainly to see if it was something people would like me to fix up and finish (and possibly integrate into the core game) but before I really got a clear answer on that, people were already modding their own versions of it and playing it online. It is quite demotivating and you will always sound like the enemy if you try to stop people being creative, but you just have to press on with your vision and keep updating.


Return to “Staff Discussions”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest