So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

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TerminusEst13
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So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#1

Post by TerminusEst13 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:37 am

Yo.

Lately, we've been having some experiences with variable ban lengths--someone does X and gets Y time, while someone else gets Z amount of time.
The general rule is supposed to be "one year for cheating", but that's an extremely broad umbrella that doesn't really apply to everything. Someone using an security exploit isn't anywhere near on the same tier as someone with perma-infinite ammo.

So what's a more appropriate set of punishments for a broader set of offenses? We've discussed a possible set, and while we're still feeling things out, we've got a decent template.
What do you guys think?

Lax in-game exploits: 4 months
Bug exploiting and behavior changes to gain unfair advantage (automatic sr50, glitches, anything considered game breaking for everyone else): 8 months
Cheating (Wallhack, Aimbot, Speedhack): 1 year
Security/DDOS/Sharing of cheating or security circumventive clients: 18 months
Last edited by TerminusEst13 on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#2

Post by one_Two » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:52 am

gain unfair advantage rule is highly debateble for some things I would say.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#3

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:11 am

one_Two wrote: gain unfair advantage rule is highly debateble for some things I would say.
Yeah... I won't deny ZCC does give everyone using it a slight advantage due to its convenience. I'd like to see some clear ruling on this.
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#4

Post by Laggy Blazko » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:18 am

What about glitches that have general acceptance in gameplay? (a vanilla example would be wallrunning)
Why is finding the user CP so hard?

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#5

Post by one_Two » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:29 am

Laggy Blazko wrote: What about glitches that have general acceptance in gameplay? (a vanilla example would be wallrunning)
Yeah maybe any exploit in the doom base is allowed such as plasma bumping and silent bfg
Then there are modern things like auto cg sniping which can give people an advantage.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#6

Post by Razgriz » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:19 am

From the responses, it sounds like the first 4 month option should be on a case by case basis. It's safe to assume all normal happenings with server settings and utilities like sr50 are fine. I'm not too sure what zcc offers aside from being able to know what map is next in random map rotation, and the name change delay, but it doesn't appear that it is very game breaking, and everyone seems to accept it as fine so far.

I think an example would be if zcc had some feature where you would be able to fire a bit faster on weapon pickup, that would be a no no for sure.

2016-02-08 21:14:04 <Jenova> like if i find an "exploit" that allows me to bypass nickname restrictions somehow so i make my name 60 chars long
2016-02-08 21:14:08 <Jenova> am i going to be banned for 4 months

The answer would be yes, here's why. Imagine if many people begain using obscenely long names exploit and called votes and it goofed up what people saw when it came to who called and what is being called, filling peoples screens if text scaling was high enough. Sure it's relatively harmless but it would become annoying very quickly to have this happen often everyday.

Also on another note, DDOS and Security breaching have been made perm as a result of some input.
Last edited by Razgriz on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#7

Post by one_Two » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:30 am

Maybe a definitive rules list should be made, then you can add to it when new exploits are found whether it's ok or not. Would you say any automation created in the ini like the cg sniping I mentioned is acceptable?

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#8

Post by Hypnotoad » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:48 am

Here's my thoughts:

edit: the punishment lengths were just a quick sketch and I'm not particularly attached to them, the main point of the post is to try produce a more comprehensive list of offenses to avoid ambiguity and prevent situations like we just experienced, the mods would obviously choose the punishments for each category themselves

Vanilla Doom exploits (e.g. sr50, void gliding etc..): no action

Zandronum engine exploits that don't disrupt gameplay or give an advantage, and don't require modified binary: up to individual server admins

Zandronum engine exploits that do disrupt gameplay but don't give a competitive advantage, and don't require modified binary: up to individual server admins if it's limited to one server. 1 week master ban for instances of abuse on different server clusters, double for each repeat offense.

Exploiting map design (e.g. blocking people in narrow corridors on coop/surv, softlocking maps): up to individual server admins, 1 week master ban for constant abuse/trolling across multiple servers, double for each repeat offense

Zandronum engine exploits that give a competitive advantage but don't require modified binary (e.g. sr50 binds, chaingun auto-sniping): can't give a blanket rule for this, I'd say obviously don't take any action for using well known commonly used exploits (like the examples I gave), if they're using a new exploit which is not known, and don't notify the devs or the rest of the community, then action should be taken. Then once found out specifically prohibit that exploit and get it patched ASAP.

Modified binary clientside additions that don't give competitive advantage or disrupt gameplay (such as many of the features in ZCC): no action, but heavily discourage using a modified binary that isn't open source and be wary of anyone that does

Exploits using a modified binary that do not disrupt gameplay and do not give a competitive advantage but otherwise enables illegal behaviour (e.g. bypassing weapon drop check?): 3 month ban, double for each repeat offense

Exploits using a modified binary that can disrupt gameplay but do not give a competitive advantage and is not serious enough to crash servers (e.g. circumventing clientside checks to spam everyone's console or server log with nonsense): 4 month ban, double for each repeat offense

Using a modified binary to cheat and gain competitive advantage (e.g. wall-hack, aimbot): 4 year ban, perma for repeat offense
(exception, reduce to 1 year if this person only used it on a casual non competitive server and is confirmed not to play on competitive servers)

Using a modified binary to deliberately crash a server: 1 year ban (unless the server admin can vouch for the guy and allowed him to do so for testing), perma for repeat offenses

Compromising server machine security or integrity (e.g. DDOS, ip-spoofing): immediate perma ban
Last edited by Hypnotoad on Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#9

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:56 am

Hypnotoad wrote: Here's my thoughts:
Exploiting map design (e.g. blocking people in narrow corridors on coop/surv, softlocking maps): up to individual server admins, 1 week master ban for constant abuse/trolling across multiple servers, double for each repeat offense
Disagree with that example. Staff should only be dealing with cheaters.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#10

Post by Galactus » Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:55 pm

The thing with these rules is that they are all black on white(except for Hypno's). You seem to only take the crime into consideration instead of the whole circumstances around said crime. For instance a person that uses a lax in-game exploit without any malicious intent shouldn't get banned for as long as a person who did it with malicious intent. Then we also should take into consideration the amount of times someone used it. If someone only used a cheat once, he shouldn't be banned for as long as a person who has used it multiple times. Tho in this situation I'd say the people who've cheated more than once should actually get a longer sentence than the standard one.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#11

Post by John Zombie » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:09 pm

For instance a person that uses a lax in-game exploit without any malicious intent shouldn't get banned for as long as a person who did it with malicious intent.
jeez, can't you just stop crying and fuck off for the next 3 months(possibly even longer)?
People who have common sense (and you most definitely do not have it) simply don't exploit/use shady private hacked exes. End of story
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Logging started at Sat Dec 28 00:47:52 2013
00:47:52 <capodecima> http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.p ... 8#pid55238
00:48:10 <capodecima> can you post something here ?
00:48:29 <capodecima> decay just crap talk about me all time when beat me and after avoid my challenge lol
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#12

Post by mifu » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:20 pm

John Zombie wrote:
For instance a person that uses a lax in-game exploit without any malicious intent shouldn't get banned for as long as a person who did it with malicious intent.
jeez, can't you just stop crying and fuck off for the next 3 months(possibly even longer)?
People who have common sense (and you most definitely do not have it) simply don't exploit/use shady private hacked exes. End of story
Hes still giving an opinion and he can if he wants despite all things.

Chill m8
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#13

Post by John Zombie » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:33 pm

He's taking every opportunity he can get to protest his innocence in threads that are not about him and shouldn't be about him, not to mention that considering what he did and considering he was fully aware of the consequences he should pretty much drop his ball and go home :)
[quote=mr. Coherence]
Logging started at Sat Dec 28 00:47:52 2013
00:47:52 <capodecima> http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.p ... 8#pid55238
00:48:10 <capodecima> can you post something here ?
00:48:29 <capodecima> decay just crap talk about me all time when beat me and after avoid my challenge lol
[/quote]

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#14

Post by ibm5155 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:46 pm

John Zombie wrote: He's taking every opportunity he can get to protest his innocence in threads that are not about him and shouldn't be about him, not to mention that considering what he did and considering he was fully aware of the consequences he should pretty much drop his ball and go home :)
so if someone did something wrong he's not allowed to type anything about his own case? (even then, he's not even mentining himself)

turn180 is also a cheat?

and this sr50 is about the player with an controller being able to controll the player even if he's on options or console menu?
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#15

Post by John Zombie » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:55 pm

so if someone did something wrong he's not allowed to type anything about his own case? (even then, he's not even mentining himself)
The case he mentioned was pretty damn specific to what he did, so yeah, he actually is "mentining" himself.
turn180 is also a cheat?
That's a command available to anyone without needing to use a hacked exe, so no, it isn't
and this sr50 is about the player with an controller being able to controll the player even if he's on options or console menu?
I fail to understand what you're saying here, if you mean the automated SR50 while turning exploit achieved via joypad emulation yes, that's a cheat which afaik has already been fixed.

Any other logically flawed arguments I should answer to?
Last edited by John Zombie on Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[quote=mr. Coherence]
Logging started at Sat Dec 28 00:47:52 2013
00:47:52 <capodecima> http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.p ... 8#pid55238
00:48:10 <capodecima> can you post something here ?
00:48:29 <capodecima> decay just crap talk about me all time when beat me and after avoid my challenge lol
[/quote]

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#16

Post by Galactus » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:02 pm

John Zombie wrote: He's taking every opportunity he can get to protest his innocence in threads that are not about him and shouldn't be about him, not to mention that considering what he did and considering he was fully aware of the consequences he should pretty much drop his ball and go home :)
Can't you go do something else, like creating another video about Zandronum doomers which you seem to care about so much.
I was asked to give my opinion on this thread, so what makes you think that I'd suddenly change my view about banning? I'm not trying to prove my innocence anymore I'm done with that, but that doesn't mean I can't still contribute to this topic.

With that I'm also dropping this discussion with you, if you really feel the need to continue this, then please take it to pm's.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#17

Post by John Zombie » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:09 pm

Look, the guy who spent 2 entire days crying everywhere about his ban is telling other people to do something else... ah the irony.
It's clear as a bell you're still pushing your non-existant innocence everywhere, and I(as well as several other people I guess) am growing a bit tired of your retarded crusade.
With that said I don't particularly care about bringing anything with you to PMs, as you're more toxic than fukushima and the whole community will certainly enjoy your 3 months absence from here.
Have a nice day
Last edited by John Zombie on Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[quote=mr. Coherence]
Logging started at Sat Dec 28 00:47:52 2013
00:47:52 <capodecima> http://zandronum.com/forum/showthread.p ... 8#pid55238
00:48:10 <capodecima> can you post something here ?
00:48:29 <capodecima> decay just crap talk about me all time when beat me and after avoid my challenge lol
[/quote]

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#18

Post by Hypnotoad » Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:52 pm

Catastrophe wrote:
Hypnotoad wrote: Here's my thoughts:
Exploiting map design (e.g. blocking people in narrow corridors on coop/surv, softlocking maps): up to individual server admins, 1 week master ban for constant abuse/trolling across multiple servers, double for each repeat offense
Disagree with that example. Staff should only be dealing with cheaters.
That's reasonable, but if the staff decide to ban a chronic troll for a week who does nothing but go to different servers and disrupt gameplay for everyone all day, exploiting flaws in popular mods, I would hardly complain either.

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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#19

Post by Catastrophe » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:14 pm

Hypnotoad wrote:
Catastrophe wrote:
Hypnotoad wrote: Here's my thoughts:
Exploiting map design (e.g. blocking people in narrow corridors on coop/surv, softlocking maps): up to individual server admins, 1 week master ban for constant abuse/trolling across multiple servers, double for each repeat offense
Disagree with that example. Staff should only be dealing with cheaters.
That's reasonable, but if the staff decide to ban a chronic troll for a week who does nothing but go to different servers and disrupt gameplay for everyone all day, exploiting flaws in popular mods, I would hardly complain either. If someone is trolling servers, then its up to the server hosts to deal with it, not the staff to baby everyone.
Still disagree, ral used to go around trolling basically every server but he is quite an active playing in private CTF that regularly helps start games. This was the main reason people wanted to have an option to opt-out of the master ban list.

Also exploiting flaws in mods is a good thing. Helps clean-up code.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: So what merits what punishment?: A treatise on ban length

#20

Post by ZZYZX » Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:20 pm

I remember the master staff stopped banning trolls in the first place, sometime around capodecima's unban. Just saying.
Although if the trolling is done with exploits...
Last edited by ZZYZX on Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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