Staff & rules reform thread

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
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Catastrophe
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#61

Post by Catastrophe » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:24 pm

Luke... You're playing a game that is extremely satanic. On top of that this game rated M for Mature, if you want some nice child friendly gaming you can go ahead and play some fuckin Chex Quest.
Last edited by Catastrophe on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#62

Post by Reach Term » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:45 pm

Cyber wrote:Regarding you guys and "roaming free", I'll repeat my first post and state that I do not let people roam free. If it's brought to my attention, I'll investigate the player and name in question, and I'll take action on it. If they had a ban that expired, then there's no reason for me not to do anything. The same goes the other way. If he's an evader, I'll make sure that action is taken. In your case, you would evade regardless of what we did. In either case, you no longer have a ban on the list, so there is no need to track you.
If you have information regarding Kalfoxis or any other evader, I would prefer to be told of it, or at least another staff member who is available.


You didn't think it was a problem when I was lurking AND ban evading mind you as Netsky exactly two year ago. Also you did boaster the idea of saying "Don't worry Mr-Cheater; Even Kal Foxis is lurking around with an alias but he's just playing with his friends."

Or as Akasha, Doc Scott and The Bahamut.
Last edited by Reach Term on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#63

Post by Dynamo » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Luke wrote:
Ruin wrote: It is your opinion but I dont think it makes metal a bad admin just because she uses naughty words from time to time.

I've never said that Metal is a bad admin.
But to answer you both: I think that seeing a Staff member swearing leaves certain users the idea that they're allowed to swear as much as they like, ending up with situations such as some that I've forgotten (because I couldn't care less about some silly dispute over a clan war, or anything else in the competitive scene) where I read heavy insults towards other users from someone. Someone who has been warned if not banned for that, but still: we want to keep the things nice, right? My idea is that swearing on the Staff's side encourages certain kind of users to swear and become rude towards other users in some situations.

Edit:
Yes: I'm looking for tiny things to pick out because the tiny things are what we overlook usually, thinking that since they're tiny they don't matter much. But if you're still here replying to me might be because for how tiny this is, it has a certain importance, couldn't be?
I think I've been clear enough to don't make anyone thinking that I'm attacking Metal willfully, so maybe I'm at least partially right. But I'm jumping to conclusions on my own and having a chat with myself, so I apologise, out of this edit you can save just the first sentence.


Fuck off, you're just nitpicking over trivial bullshit as always. Nobody is interested in your lectures about moralism or "Guide to Typing 101". Your example is very poor at best, considering about 95% of users online swear every day, and there is a good difference between "that guy is a motherfucking piece of shit" and "man, that hamburger I had yesterday was kind of shitty".

Seriously why don't you find something better to do in your spare time rather than point out stuff nobody cares about?

Luke wrote:I'm looking for tiny things to pick out because the tiny things are what we overlook usually, thinking that since they're tiny they don't matter much.


There is a reason they are ignored, it's not our fault you missed the memo. Nobody is going to suddendly present these entirely irrelevant things are important just because someone who hates swear swords for some reason said so.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#64

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:25 pm

Talking about giving a good example eh Dynamo? If you really want to ban me, go on please. If I've to lure around a place where the Administration is free to be deliberately harsh with the users just because they don't like what they think... Heck.
You can't even stand a little discussion, everyone has to think as you do otherwise they can *** off. Right.

For god sake I hope you're just high because the argumentations of yours are nothing but silly; for what you wrote I could kill myself or rape or murder since plenty of people do that. Flawless logic.
Then again, you didn't even take the effort to understand me, but just raged because you couldn't attack my point (since it's a freaking solid opinion I have hence it can't be destroyed easily).

Really.
It hurts and makes me sad how you're free to behave like this with me "just because" you're on the staff side. It's sad and shameful.

Besides, I've never been harsh with you, and when I was going to be I had the care of GTFO from your bloody channel to behave like an adult and not like a kid. Sad that I can't say the same for you.

edit:
Furthermore, you aren't even able to put aside the personal stuff when it comes to deal with official stuff, and how you've been harsh is the proof. Now only Me, You, Omega and Afullo know that I'm not just talking bs, anyway, I can't care less at this point.
Just sigh.

Re-edit:
Then again, it's not about saying that "a hamburger was shitty", you read my posts (I hope) so you read where I quoted Metal (forgive me for remarking this once again but I need to) because that is the case where a bad word from the Staff is, in my opinion, inappropriate. Because answering to a user saying that he/she is "calling bullshit" is not appropriate for an Administrator. In my opinion. If you can't look beyond the example, at least have the kindness to don't jump on me yelling how I make no sense and basically how I have to shut my mouth because my opinion counts nothing.
Thank you.
Last edited by Luke on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#65

Post by Cyber' » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:47 pm

Reach Term wrote:
Cyber wrote:Regarding you guys and "roaming free", I'll repeat my first post and state that I do not let people roam free. If it's brought to my attention, I'll investigate the player and name in question, and I'll take action on it. If they had a ban that expired, then there's no reason for me not to do anything. The same goes the other way. If he's an evader, I'll make sure that action is taken. In your case, you would evade regardless of what we did. In either case, you no longer have a ban on the list, so there is no need to track you.
If you have information regarding Kalfoxis or any other evader, I would prefer to be told of it, or at least another staff member who is available.


You didn't think it was a problem when I was lurking AND ban evading mind you as Netsky exactly two year ago. Also you did boaster the idea of saying "Don't worry Mr-Cheater; Even Kal Foxis is lurking around with an alias but he's just playing with his friends."

Or as Akasha, Doc Scott and The Bahamut.


You're bringing skulltag into this when I stated that we're relating the issues with Zandronum. As of Zandronum I've yet to ignore the situation with kalfoxis and even others have helped with his case. If we want to go skulltag era it was because it became a pointless effort to keep you banned and too many innocents we're getting caught in ranges. This has not been a major issue in current Zandronum. Regarding Zandronum, my statement stands.
Last edited by Cyber' on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#66

Post by mifu » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:50 pm

OK, Allow me to say one thing, and it is regarding this vulgar thing.

Luke, you are a good guy but I am afraid that Various people like Dynamo are correct in terms of this "considering about 95% of users online swear every day, and there is a good difference between "that guy is a motherfucking piece of shit" and "man, that hamburger I had yesterday was kind of shitty"."

People swear here every day and as a matter in fact ive been here long enough to see that the community itself will throw swear words to the staff.

I can see where you are coming from luke, I really do and Dynamo probably took that far by telling you to fuck off, but I got something for you to think about.

In an online community such as this, there is normally no rules what so ever about using foul language, and people will do it. So does the community's admins... hell I even say fuck when there is a netsplit in IRC. As long as no one flames eachother, it is classed as a culture.

I get where you are coming from too, regarding professionalism but honestly As Ruin said, everyone is going to swear.

What would happen if we made a rule that no one could swear? May help out staff as you said, but I am pretty sure a lot of people would not like it if they get warned for saying "this is fucking awesome" for a project.


EDIT: If I am missing the point here luke, please let me know.
Last edited by mifu on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#67

Post by Ijon Tichy » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:52 pm

There is a difference between swearing and abuse. You've completely missed that point, and continue to miss that point. Who gives a fuck if someone swears like a drunken sailor if their points are valid, their judgement fair, and their actions just and logical? It's when what they say turns into abuse that it becomes an issue, and yet you identify swearing as the bad thing here.

It's extremely easy to be rude to someone and not swear. Should we ban non-swear words for that reason, because those too allow for rudeness?

Banning arbitrary words is just stupid. Say what you want, as long as it isn't abusive. I couldn't care less if you replace every other word with "fuck".


Edit since keeping your post constant is TOO HARD:

So wait, if someone's spouting out bullshit, an administrator isn't allowed to say, "you're spouting bullshit"? As I said earlier, sugarcoating things just dilutes the message. Don't do it.
Last edited by Ijon Tichy on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#68

Post by Reach Term » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:55 pm

Cyber wrote:
Reach Term wrote:
Cyber wrote:Regarding you guys and "roaming free", I'll repeat my first post and state that I do not let people roam free. If it's brought to my attention, I'll investigate the player and name in question, and I'll take action on it. If they had a ban that expired, then there's no reason for me not to do anything. The same goes the other way. If he's an evader, I'll make sure that action is taken. In your case, you would evade regardless of what we did. In either case, you no longer have a ban on the list, so there is no need to track you.
If you have information regarding Kalfoxis or any other evader, I would prefer to be told of it, or at least another staff member who is available.


You didn't think it was a problem when I was lurking AND ban evading mind you as Netsky exactly two year ago. Also you did boaster the idea of saying "Don't worry Mr-Cheater; Even Kal Foxis is lurking around with an alias but he's just playing with his friends."

Or as Akasha, Doc Scott and The Bahamut.


You're bringing skulltag into this when I stated that we're relating the issues with Zandronum. As of Zandronum I've yet to ignore the situation with kalfoxis and even others have helped with his case. If we want to go skulltag era it was because it became a pointless effort to keep you banned and too many innocents we're getting caught in ranges. This has not been a major issue in current Zandronum. Regarding Zandronum, my statement stands.


New port, new carpet(or rug); eh, Cyber?
Last edited by Reach Term on Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#69

Post by Metal » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:02 am

Luke wrote:Talking about giving a good example eh Dynamo? If you really want to ban me, go on please. If I've to lure around a place where the Administration is free to be deliberately harsh with the users just because they don't like what they think... Heck.
You can't even stand a little discussion, everyone has to think as you do otherwise they can *** off. Right.

For god sake I hope you're just high because the argumentations of yours are nothing but silly; for what you wrote I could kill myself or rape or murder since plenty of people do that. Flawless logic.
Then again, you didn't even take the effort to understand me, but just raged because you couldn't attack my point (since it's a freaking solid opinion I have hence it can't be destroyed easily).

Really.
It hurts and makes me sad how you're free to behave like this with me "just because" you're on the staff side. It's sad and shameful.

Besides, I've never been harsh with you, and when I was going to be I had the care of GTFO from your bloody channel to behave like an adult and not like a kid. Sad that I can't say the same for you.

edit:
Furthermore, you aren't even able to put aside the personal stuff when it comes to deal with official stuff, and how you've been harsh is the proof. Now only Me, You, Omega and Afullo know that I'm not just talking bs, anyway, I can't care less at this point.
Just sigh.

Re-edit:
Then again, it's not about saying that "a hamburger was shitty", you read my posts (I hope) so you read where I quoted Metal (forgive me for remarking this once again but I need to) because that is the case where a bad word from the Staff is, in my opinion, inappropriate. Because answering to a user saying that he/she is "calling bullshit" is not appropriate for an Administrator. In my opinion. If you can't look beyond the example, at least have the kindness to don't jump on me yelling how I make no sense and basically how I have to shut my mouth because my opinion counts nothing.
Thank you.


I would like to put an end to the small argument going on here.

Luke, I understand what you're saying and yes, you're bringing your point up just fine. It's civil, it's easy to read, and I can see where you're coming from. You want to see more professionalism come from the staff. Honestly, I don't think you were around during the Skulltag era. There has been a HUGE improvement from what it was long ago.

Asking us not to swear and not be vulgar what so ever is a little bit much. I mean, we try not to be vulgar to the point of breaking rules, but we do not insult people with vulgarity such as "You're a fucking dickbag". It's more like "Why won't this fucking map load on my shitty ass computer". There's a large difference between aggressive vulgarity and personal.

Please understand we are not robots, and we manage this forum on our free time as volunteers. We're not employees at a call center or some other retail store so our professionalism will be limited. As I said before, if I censor it for us, it would be censored for the whole forum for fairness and equality.

Fairness and equality doesn't just apply to the community members, it applies to the staff as well. Take this as you will, but I don't plan on changing my posting style to sound robotic or inhuman.

I do understand what you're asking and I'm sorry to tell you, it simply won't happen.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#70

Post by Luke » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:02 am

You probably missed my very last edit:

Luke wrote:Re-edit:
Then again, it's not about saying that "a hamburger was shitty", you read my posts (I hope) so you read where I quoted Metal (forgive me for remarking this once again but I need to) because that is the case where a bad word from the Staff is, in my opinion, inappropriate. Because answering to a user saying that he/she is "calling bullshit" is not appropriate for an Administrator.


Because the first thing that the Staff wants is reciprocal respect among the users, since that's the basic for a solid and friendly (and I'm not talking about MLP style!) community.
If the Staff is the first to be vulgar with the users, then it's easy to expect that some immature users will be vulgar hence will cause troubles if they will be vulgar with another user who doesn't like the harshness used against him/her.

Only this.

I only wanted to point out this fact, and as far as I've seen Slyfox got my point, and somehowe agreed on it.

Then it's to the Staff to do their best to remain as chilled as possible when they have to deal with annoying users.
They do already, and in fact I've never said that they don't or that they should ban the swearing or whatever else.
All my post were limited to enlight how the swearing from the Staff's side, under certain circumstances, is something that hurts the community. Thing that everyone knew, but that can't be too bad to remark since what someone wrote three pages ago.

Metal wrote:Asking us not to swear and not be vulgar what so ever is a little bit much. I mean, we try not to be vulgar to the point of breaking rules, but we do not insult people with vulgarity such as "You're a fucking dickbag". It's more like "Why won't this fucking map load on my shitty ass computer". There's a large difference between aggressive vulgarity and personal.

Please understand we are not robots, and we manage this forum on our free time as volunteers. We're not employees at a call center or some other retail store so our professionalism will be limited. As I said before, if I censor it for us, it would be censored for the whole forum for fairness and equality.

[...]

I do understand what you're asking and I'm sorry to tell you, it simply won't happen.


I see, and I understand.
It won't happen? It's alright, if you say that the improvements since the ST era have been many I can say that I trust you and so if you say it's good as it is now, I'm fine with it.

Re-Edit:
I like you as Admin, find you very nice and let's say professional, I'm sure that someone doesn't like you for some reason but "we can't make everyone happy", right?
Yes. This is shameful Ass-Licking.
Last edited by Luke on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#71

Post by Ijon Tichy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:12 am

Luke wrote:
Luke wrote:Re-edit:
Then again, it's not about saying that "a hamburger was shitty", you read my posts (I hope) so you read where I quoted Metal (forgive me for remarking this once again but I need to) because that is the case where a bad word from the Staff is, in my opinion, inappropriate. Because answering to a user saying that he/she is "calling bullshit" is not appropriate for an Administrator.


Because the first thing that the Staff wants is reciprocal respect among the users, since that's the basic for a solid and friendly (and I'm not talking about MLP style!) community.
If the Staff is the first to be vulgar with the users, then it's easy to expect that some immature users will be vulgar hence will cause troubles if they will be vulgar with another user who doesn't like the harshness used against him/her.


Except no one but you cares.

Everyone else so far has been able to handle rougher words and some insults coming their way. 'Swear' words are completely arbitrary, and their banning is completely unnecessary. Not using swear words isn't going to magically net you respect; being a decent person and doing your job nets you respect.

And guess what? If people start jumping at each others' throats, that can be handled by the book! It's almost as if that was thought of.

Immature people are going to be immature regardless of what verbiage you use. Expecting otherwise is lunacy.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#72

Post by Metal » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:12 am

Luke wrote:You probably missed my very last edit:

Luke wrote:Re-edit:
Then again, it's not about saying that "a hamburger was shitty", you read my posts (I hope) so you read where I quoted Metal (forgive me for remarking this once again but I need to) because that is the case where a bad word from the Staff is, in my opinion, inappropriate. Because answering to a user saying that he/she is "calling bullshit" is not appropriate for an Administrator.


Because the first thing that the Staff wants is reciprocal respect among the users, since that's the basic for a solid and friendly (and I'm not talking about MLP style!) community.
If the Staff is the first to be vulgar with the users, then it's easy to expect that some immature users will be vulgar hence will cause troubles if they will be vulgar with another user who doesn't like the harshness used against him/her.

Only this.

I only wanted to point out this fact, and as far as I've seen Slyfox got my point, and somehowe agreed on it.

Then it's to the Staff to do their best to remain as chilled as possible when they have to deal with annoying users.
They do already, and in fact I've never said that they don't or that they should ban the swearing or whatever else.
All my post were limited to enlight how the swearing from the Staff's side, under certain circumstances, is something that hurts the community. Thing that everyone knew, but that can't be too bad to remark since what someone wrote three pages ago.

Metal wrote:Asking us not to swear and not be vulgar what so ever is a little bit much. I mean, we try not to be vulgar to the point of breaking rules, but we do not insult people with vulgarity such as "You're a fucking dickbag". It's more like "Why won't this fucking map load on my shitty ass computer". There's a large difference between aggressive vulgarity and personal.

Please understand we are not robots, and we manage this forum on our free time as volunteers. We're not employees at a call center or some other retail store so our professionalism will be limited. As I said before, if I censor it for us, it would be censored for the whole forum for fairness and equality.

[...]

I do understand what you're asking and I'm sorry to tell you, it simply won't happen.


I see, and I understand.
It won't happen? It's alright, if you say that the improvements since the ST era have been many I can say that I trust you and so if you say it's good as it is now, I'm fine with it.

Re-Edit:
I like you as Admin, find you very nice and let's say professional, I'm sure that someone doesn't like you for some reason but "we can't make everyone happy", right?
Yes. This is shameful Ass-Licking.


[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gPdhHed4sg[/video]

Just to clarify this for you :P
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#73

Post by Popsoap » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:36 am

I'm gonna give my 2¢ here. The casual culture of the staff displays makes it far less intimidating to approach them (at least for me). It reminds me they are in fact normal human beings, the only difference being they just happen to hold more power.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#74

Post by Cyber' » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:48 am

Reach Term wrote:
Cyber wrote:
Reach Term wrote:
Cyber wrote:Regarding you guys and "roaming free", I'll repeat my first post and state that I do not let people roam free. If it's brought to my attention, I'll investigate the player and name in question, and I'll take action on it. If they had a ban that expired, then there's no reason for me not to do anything. The same goes the other way. If he's an evader, I'll make sure that action is taken. In your case, you would evade regardless of what we did. In either case, you no longer have a ban on the list, so there is no need to track you.
If you have information regarding Kalfoxis or any other evader, I would prefer to be told of it, or at least another staff member who is available.


You didn't think it was a problem when I was lurking AND ban evading mind you as Netsky exactly two year ago. Also you did boaster the idea of saying "Don't worry Mr-Cheater; Even Kal Foxis is lurking around with an alias but he's just playing with his friends."

Or as Akasha, Doc Scott and The Bahamut.


You're bringing skulltag into this when I stated that we're relating the issues with Zandronum. As of Zandronum I've yet to ignore the situation with kalfoxis and even others have helped with his case. If we want to go skulltag era it was because it became a pointless effort to keep you banned and too many innocents we're getting caught in ranges. This has not been a major issue in current Zandronum. Regarding Zandronum, my statement stands.


New port, new carpet(or rug); eh, Cyber?


Indeed, my carpet is a beautiful midnight blue and I intend on keeping it as clean as possible. May I ask what color yours is?
Last edited by Cyber' on Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#75

Post by infurnus » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:46 am

Metal wrote:
Luke wrote:[...]
[...]
Just to clarify this for you :P

I'd like to also suggest this clip for viewing. (specifically, the 4:30 mark, to 5:30)

EDIT: Also,
  • people have a right to have opinions, and to be offended by whatever irks them, just like how people have a right to feel any other emotion
  • being offended does not make you special; it does not give you special powers, it does not allow you to be protected from second hand insults and inflamed sensitivities
  • no one has the right to not be offended; people can't claim they have a right to not be offended when freedom of speech is prevalent
  • nobody will ever be granted special rights simply because they are offended
  • knowing those things, people shouldn't purposely try to offend others
  • make sure that the issue is real and not perceived; no one should make a mountain out of a molehill, etc
Last edited by infurnus on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#76

Post by Luke » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:25 am

I think that so far, only 3 users understood my point. Or I'm being mocked, I don't know what, but this is entertaining, certainly.

edit: I'm total cool with the video, but maybe just read Slyfox's post and you'll get my point about this. Because I think you didn't get my point, anyway, Metal said let's end it here so let's do it. So read back and let's do it, since everything that there has to be said has been said.
Last edited by Luke on Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#77

Post by Metal » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:26 am

I'd like to bring up a rule change or addition that has come up in the past.

What could we do for a rule that disallows hosting edited wads without authors permission?

Example A: Let's say I made a wad called terrariadeathmatch.wad, put my author permissions in it and Cyber took it, edited and modified sprites and other things in the wad that he did not have permission to do and hosted it. (This is bad)

Example B: He hosted my wad with an additional wad he made that added some changes but didn't actually tamper with my wad file. (This is good)

How could we implement this rule without being too harsh on the person who 'stole' or 'modified' it without users permission. I find this issue has come up a lot more often than it should.

Ideas?
Last edited by Metal on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#78

Post by Ænima » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:44 am

Temporarily ban the person's IP from hosting and send them a PM (if possible) explaining why their server was taken down and why they can't violate mod-editing permissions.
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Slyfox
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#79

Post by Slyfox » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Example A: aenima's punishment sounds best
otherwise they shouldn't be punished, if his/her wad isn't directly edited in anyway then he/she crying that someone made their own add-on wad to it is their problem

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#80

Post by TerminusEst13 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:02 pm

Example B is fine. Example A is A Bad Thing. Add-ons are okay, do whatever. Editing the .wad file itself and then rehosting it is a problem.
BE has a system where if a modder sees their shit being edited and hosted without permission, they can talk to the admins and get the server shut down and file deleted. Repeated offenses mean ban.

It's a pretty simple system, and one that's worked effectively.
Because, fucking seriously, it is not that hard to ask someone "Hey is it cool if I edit some of your stuff and make a spinoff wad"

I mean, we can't exactly copyright anything and we can't even legally claim ownership to anything we make, since almost all of us are using recycled resources from different iwads/wads/sprite edits/whatever, but taking someone's shit and editing it without permission and passing it off as your own version is just a complete dick move.
Last edited by TerminusEst13 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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