Staff & rules reform thread

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
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Metal
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#41

Post by Metal » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:44 pm

Lollipop wrote: Your post didn't come out harsh or wierd at all.
I think I know what is causing the troubble when I say it look corrupt, when I look at it as corrupt, I ust an outside view, not a very nice view at all.
Explaining it would be plain impossible as it relies mostly on how I see the way most admins post sometimes that lead to this conclusion, such as Metal posts.
Can you show some examples of this? Which other admins? And my posts aren't aggressive in anyway. I don't intend them to be. Sorry if you see them that way.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#42

Post by Lollipop » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:10 pm

it will be easier to give examples on how you SHOULD post instead of what you have posted, as what you have posted is how you think is right and therefore it would serve no point, like telling someone who belive in god that it is wrong doing so, it will serve no point telling them as they think what they do is right (I used this as an example, I do not intend you to understand that as my actual opinion).

this will be my last post in this thread, as it will just end up bruning in flamer all over the place and haunt our memories and cause other shit such as broken keyboards in the long run.
The last words I have for this thread is: Look around.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#43

Post by Cyber' » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:22 pm

...what?
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#44

Post by Mr.Man » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:34 pm

^ this

EDIT: i mean
Lollipop wrote: as what you have posted is how you think is right and therefore it would serve no point
Has this ever been different?
Last edited by Mr.Man on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#45

Post by Ijon Tichy » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:42 pm

Hey, Lollipop. Just an idea here, but maybe you should flesh out your English skills more before trying to make arguments, because as it stands, your arguments are completely incoherent. I haven't the slightest clue what you're trying to say, and it seems no one else does either.

Edit: I have absolutely no issue with administrators expressing 'rude' ideas. If things need to be said, why bowdlerise what's being said and dilute (hell, even remove) the raw message? A tirade of insults, of course, is almost always bad, but removing all potentially offensive words or passages is a great way to filter any actual information out.
Last edited by Ijon Tichy on Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#46

Post by Mr.Man » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:44 pm

Ijon Tichy wrote: stuff
I would say his custom title fits well.

If this makes another flamewar, then i never said that.
Last edited by Mr.Man on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#47

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:11 pm

infurnus wrote:So "fart in the wind" and "bullshit" are considered vulgar and rude now? I don't think this discussion is pertinent to staff reforms in general, but with respect to you wanting to improve staff conduct, what suggestions beyond "this is bad and you should be more like this other person who doesn't have to put up with what you do" do you have? I am genuinely curious.
Nothing. Mine was a small suggestion, because I strongly believe that you can drastically change the future with small, but significant, actions.

Also yes: whether you like it or not, use those words or not, that is vulgarity. I don't like to see a Staff member being vulgar, I don't like vulgarity, I can't stand how everyone has to put genitals everywhere, then I'm the first who swears a lot, but so fascinating that I started to swear god again when I came to lure again on the Skulltag Zandronum's servers one year ago. Weird.
Then I'm pretty sure that if I'll receive an answer it will be something like "well dude: just deal with it or change place", but you asked for my 2 cents, here they are.

Edit:
Spoiler: Vulgarity (Open)
Bullshit
Definition of bullshit in English
bullshit
Pronunciation: /ˈbʊlʃɪt/
vulgar slang
Let's use the Oxford dictionary, shall we?

Then I could also add how many users doesn't know the english well, and they learn it from the people in the community they attend, so figure out what would come out from a staff using a bad language (again, it is for the Oxford Dictionary). Would come out a russian yelling at the microphone "What the **** man!?" and the english man staying quite thinking "Alright, he can barely say that, I'm sure he didn't want to be rude." But I'm going very OT now.
What I meant to say is that there are people who learn the english here, and if they see the staff swearing and they don't know the word they might use it in inappropriate contexts (no moral about how should you make sure that the word is what you thought it is please. It's not that easy when you understand 1 word out of 20.). So in short: I can hold it myself, lately I let myself going since I saw that vulgarity was... dialy thing, but I don't find it nice. When the rules say "keep it clean" that's what they ALSO mean (somewhere. not here, apparently, so far).

Re-Edit:
So yes: no public vulgarity from the Staff, this is my suggestion. In ANY circumstance. I know it might be hard but I think that it is part of what the Staff has to do to keep the community clean and nice. For everything else I can say I'm pretty satisfied with the Staff, but I hadn't problems in ST, nor I've here, I stay on my own and I don't cause troubles nor join random groups of I don't know what so yea, I can't say that I've ever had something with anyone. If not TMC. But it's a old, small and forgotten story.
Last edited by Luke on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#48

Post by Cyber' » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:33 pm

To be fair, hell can be used in a vulgar way, and hell is what doom is based on. Not to mention the 18+ rating...
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#49

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:37 pm

Cyber wrote: To be fair, hell can be used in a vulgar way, and hell is what doom is based on. Not to mention the 18+ rating...
This is what I meant. I learnt that hell can be used in a vulgar way only lately, but for years I thought it wasn't vulgar.
Lollipop wrote:@Luke you and Reach Term are obviously the only ones who actually read my post in the same way I wrote it, looks like other people read it just to find a way to flak me.
Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#50

Post by Ivan » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:43 pm

Luke wrote: Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.
I'm pretty sure development is way harder than just PR. One takes skill, knowledge and patience, the other takes just patience.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#51

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:56 pm

Ivan wrote:
Luke wrote: Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.
I'm pretty sure development is way harder than just PR. One takes skill, knowledge and patience, the other takes just patience.
Of course! I didn't mean to overlook the amount of working time that Torr spends on developing Zandronum, but to say that what he does is something where there public relation part is very small and simple, limited to "I got this" "Let me know that", while the Moderators and everyone else who has to deal with bans and inappropriate behavior has a harder time since what they do is not judged objectively but subjectivly (because like it or not we're all human and we have preferences). So, when Lollipop said that they should do as Torr, saying only what's new, I agree on that but I'm aware (and I want to remark it for everyone) that isn't always that simple to just say "what's wrong" because there are circumstances in which things aren't completely black or white, and so it's harder to judge and everything ends up relying on the Staff's ability of keeping theirselves neutrals.
Last edited by Luke on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#52

Post by RedShirt » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:57 pm

This thread turned in to a nice little shit storm as well. Just to clarify, no one has ever leaked anything to us and no one on spak really gives a damn about shit here to be honest. Just as I said in the last thread
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#53

Post by Impact » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Luke wrote:
Ivan wrote:
Luke wrote: Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.
I'm pretty sure development is way harder than just PR. One takes skill, knowledge and patience, the other takes just patience.
Of course! I didn't mean to overlook the amount of working time that Torr spends on developing Zandronum, but to say that what he does is something where there public relation part is very small and simple, limited to "I got this" "Let me know that", while the Moderators and everyone else who has to deal with bans and inappropriate behavior has a harder time since what they do is not judged objectively but subjectivly (because like it or not we're all human and we have preferences). So, when Lollipop said that they should do as Torr, saying only what's new, I agree on that but I'm aware (and I want to remark it for everyone) that isn't always that simple to just say "what's wrong" because there are circumstances in which things aren't completely black or white, and so it's harder to judge and everything ends up relying on the Staff's ability of keeping theirselves neutrals.
I still think it would be a lot harder to code for a port for a game than it would be to be a community ambassador: anyone can do that with patience and with critical thinking skills, you have to actively learn coding languages (C++ and whatnot) to do what Torr does. Without him progress on Zandronum would slow dramatically if not stop. I thank him for all his hard work, but the administrative staff do deserve their praise too.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#54

Post by Metal » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:06 pm

Luke wrote:
Cyber wrote: To be fair, hell can be used in a vulgar way, and hell is what doom is based on. Not to mention the 18+ rating...
This is what I meant. I learnt that hell can be used in a vulgar way only lately, but for years I thought it wasn't vulgar.
Lollipop wrote:@Luke you and Reach Term are obviously the only ones who actually read my post in the same way I wrote it, looks like other people read it just to find a way to flak me.
Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.
I'm having a hard time taking this swearing thing seriously when you have a torrent site linked in your profile. Well...Had.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#55

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:21 pm

Metal wrote:
Luke wrote:
Cyber wrote: To be fair, hell can be used in a vulgar way, and hell is what doom is based on. Not to mention the 18+ rating...
This is what I meant. I learnt that hell can be used in a vulgar way only lately, but for years I thought it wasn't vulgar.
Lollipop wrote:@Luke you and Reach Term are obviously the only ones who actually read my post in the same way I wrote it, looks like other people read it just to find a way to flak me.
Let's put a good word on every Staff member except Torr: he deals only with the development, the community management is the hardest part of the Staff's work, and these kind of threads show how they try their best to make everyone happy and keep the community as nice as possible.
I'm having a hard time taking this swearing thing seriously when you have a torrent site linked in your profile. Well...Had.
Are different things Metal. One is about being vulgar the other is about users abusing the features of the internet. Anyway, good to know that that website is a no-no, I thought it was okay but whatever, it's a no-no, so good to know that.
Then again: are different things, and you know that. You know my point, and whether or not you agree with me that is it, plain and simple: I don't like vulgarity and I find a pity that a Staff member becomes vulgar (doesn't matter how much). The Staff should be the example of behavior for everyone, so this is why of this vulgarity thing.
Then again (again): as I said I know that you're all humans and as humans can get fiery sometimes. I think that this is the first time I saw you using a bad on the forums, but I had to enlight it since it's exactly the only thing I might have to suggest. Maybe to remind you, because you're all humans and can make mistakes as everyone, right?

So yes, I hope you didn't take it bad, I only wanted to say what I said and yes I am totally serious.
Then about all the stuff that Reach Term said: I don't want to put mouth there because it's far beyond what I know about the community, as I said earlier I tend to stay on my own and to don't cause any trouble, to don't join any faction, so I don't know hence I can't say anything about that. It's your business and I'm just spectating the discussion to see where it leads and if I can get a better picture of this community.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#56

Post by Metal » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:28 pm

People swear on here, it would be no different if I stopped swearing and became a robot, other community members would still swear. I see what you're TRYING to say, that I'm supposed to be a role model for younger and non-english community members. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. And if that's the first time you've seen me swear, why is it such an issue now?

If you're having trouble deciphering what is vulgar and what is not in the english language, I don't mind helping you with that. Mainly because a lot of the words in the English language are used fluently. I'm sorry that you don't like it, but there's not many people around here that don't swear. The only way it would be fair, is to include a filter so that no one can swear on the forums.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#57

Post by Ruin » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:34 pm

I'm sorry but I don't see see how vulgar language has any bearing on anything. It just seems like you are looking for tiny things to pick at. Pretty sure I am a full grown adult and can say whatever I please on a forum ment for a mature rated game. It is your opinion but I dont think it makes metal a bad admin just because she uses naughty words from time to time.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#58

Post by Luke » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Ruin wrote: It is your opinion but I dont think it makes metal a bad admin just because she uses naughty words from time to time.
I've never said that Metal is a bad admin.
But to answer you both: I think that seeing a Staff member swearing leaves certain users the idea that they're allowed to swear as much as they like, ending up with situations such as some that I've forgotten (because I couldn't care less about some silly dispute over a clan war, or anything else in the competitive scene) where I read heavy insults towards other users from someone. Someone who has been warned if not banned for that, but still: we want to keep the things nice, right? My idea is that swearing on the Staff's side encourages certain kind of users to swear and become rude towards other users in some situations.

Edit:
Yes: I'm looking for tiny things to pick out because the tiny things are what we overlook usually, thinking that since they're tiny they don't matter much. But if you're still here replying to me might be because for how tiny this is, it has a certain importance, couldn't be?
I think I've been clear enough to don't make anyone thinking that I'm attacking Metal willfully, so maybe I'm at least partially right. But I'm jumping to conclusions on my own and having a chat with myself, so I apologise, out of this edit you can save just the first sentence.

I'm looking for tiny things to pick out because the tiny things are what we overlook usually, thinking that since they're tiny they don't matter much.
Last edited by Luke on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#59

Post by Slyfox » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:07 pm

Luke wrote:
Ruin wrote: It is your opinion but I dont think it makes metal a bad admin just because she uses naughty words from time to time.
I've never said that Metal is a bad admin.
But to answer you both: I think that seeing a Staff member swearing leaves certain users the idea that they're allowed to swear as much as they like
I mean
Ruin wrote: forum meant for a mature rated game.
answers this p. nicely if you ask me; I know that unfortunately this forum meant for a 'mature rated game' has the exact opposite of maturity from time to time, I still think the majority of actual mature people will control their use of swears whether an admin swears or not.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#60

Post by Ruin » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:12 pm

I refuse to have this forum set up like a PG chat room. People are going to swear. I am going to swear. Im responding not because of its important, but because the notion of limiting speech due to naughty words is absurd. Yes there is a line between just swearing and outright berating someone in a negative manner in a profanity fueled rant. That is what we are here for. When someone crosses that line, we will address it.
Last edited by Ruin on Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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