Staff & rules reform thread

Public discussion of the forum software and other things run by Zandronum staff.
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Staff & rules reform thread

#1

Post by infurnus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:09 pm

If you have any questions or comments, or if any issues crop up, you may post here.

We're open to hearing different thoughts from the community, just don't go overboard, and keep on topic.

EDIT: The forum software was MyBB when the majority of this thread's posts were made, keep this in mind if you are checking through this thread in the future, some issues may be completely resolved now due to the transition to phpBB as of this edit, but I am unsure, so feel free to discuss.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#2

Post by infurnus » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:17 pm

This post reserved. It will be continually updated over time.

Here's some info on what we've been doing so far, for transparency (This will be updated and clarified over time)

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* 27th September, 2013 - Internal reported posts & warning procedure reform (last internal reform/review was 26th July, 2012)
Last edited by infurnus on Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#3

Post by someoneelse » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:40 am

ALL bans including length and reason being written for public view. Less witty, but not saying anything reason descriptions.
I found one of first topics, blaming Skulltag's failures on forgetting and/or neglecting to do those things. I agree with that.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#4

Post by Balrog » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:33 pm

Include context for all bans. If you don't have context, don't ban.

EDIT: By this I mean that including context for bans is the best way to avoid misunderstandings like the Mobius incident, and if you can't come up with something to put in the box for context you probably shouldn't ban. (Ban evades would be an exception to this, since that's pretty much self-explanatory.)
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#5

Post by -Jes- » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:58 pm

Balrog wrote:Include context for all bans. If you don't have context, don't ban.


I take it this train of thought takes into account the potential segmentation and/or size of said context?! :neutral:

Not everything can so easily be summarized into one-line descriptions or links. And like several others in the 'Lets Talk' thread, this suggestion assumes the staff has all the time in the world to perform, explain and discuss their actions.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#6

Post by Ruin » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:11 pm

I am fairly certain we provide reasons why someone was banned on both the master banlist, and in the irc management section. Though admittedly, I do not know how long its been since it was updated. I do not think forum bans are posted in a single thread. Perhaps we could start doing that. But beyond the typical ban reasons we do post (in the master, server blacklist, and irc ban thread), I am not sure how much elaboration you are wanting.
Last edited by Ruin on Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#7

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:29 pm

I presume they mean forum bans

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#8

Post by someoneelse » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:41 pm

I meant IRC bans. And looking at forums topic, I can see it's like half of all actual bans I had seen. And this "undefinite" thing- what the hell is it? It's just as non-clear as it can be.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#9

Post by Ruin » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:22 pm

Usually means permanent. Unless I am mistaken.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#10

Post by StrikerMan780 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:38 pm

I'm going to hazard a guess and say it basically means that it will remain in place until further notice, as it is an unknown length of time. (Indefinite = Not clearly expressed or defined. Synonymous with Indeterminate.)
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#11

Post by The Toxic Avenger » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:51 pm

The ones that say "indefinite" or "undetermined" are old bans actually. The ones you see for PhobosMarine and DTD are permanent. However, a lot of older bans were listed as such and it was just called a day, a thing I'm not huge on personally, as a lot of times it was used for bans for general spamming or first time offenders, before we started going a little more methodical with it.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#12

Post by Torvald » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:01 pm

someoneelse wrote:I meant IRC bans. And looking at forums topic, I can see it's like half of all actual bans I had seen. And this "undefinite" thing- what the hell is it? It's just as non-clear as it can be.


Ruin wrote:Usually means permanent. Unless I am mistaken.


Indefinite:

Adjective

- Lasting for an unknown length of time: "indefinite detention".
- Not clearly expressed or defined; vague: "their status remains indefinite".


Basically its stating that the ban is permanent until further notice; the person could either be unbanned next week, or never unbanned. In most cases it is the latter - but there are the seldom exceptional cases.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#13

Post by someoneelse » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:51 pm

I am aware what "indefinite" means. And that's why I am concerned. It pretty much opens the door to someone being mildly annoying to be permabanned because op doesn't like them, while people who are deliberately offensive and hateful but in buddies circle will get a week.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#14

Post by Ruin » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:06 pm

I doubt that would happen, but I understand the concern. I am all for more refined ban lengths as opposed to "indefinite". A standardized set of regs to go by would be nice to have in order to establish a more uniform ban length system.
Last edited by Ruin on Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#15

Post by Ænima » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:54 pm

someoneelse wrote:I am aware what "indefinite" means. And that's why I am concerned. It pretty much opens the door to someone being mildly annoying to be permabanned because op doesn't like them

Yeahhhhh a certain IRCop did that to me back on irc.skulltag.net.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#16

Post by Reach Term » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:19 am

Where do I even begin on such a topic? Well, throughout my time being in this community through both good and bad reasoning; I tend to pick up on a few things. However before I go on to the real slice of the post, I just want to say that I am not speaking for anyone. No one has put words in my mouth nor influence me to say otherwise. I am not a member nor am representing parties/groups/clans/cliques like PRO and SPAK, A3 and Blue's TS; I don't even any any connections with Unidoom, R and other smaller factions in this community that likes to warrant itself in the community. I am my own man, a man of his own words that isn't subjective to someone else respect or influence. Now you may be asking what is this leading up too? What do I, a person who is practically hated by all has to say? Well, my problem is that there's a certain trend or two that has always happen throughout this community ever since I enter this community back in 2009. One is the lack on conflict of interest, especially with third party groups that isn't official with the port; for example SPAK ts and Blue ts comes to mind. Before anyone of these two groups would go on and say they don't bother anyone in the moderation team with internal information; let me say as someone who has been hanging around these TS servers(MORE SO with spak) is that, they have been talking with anyone who was connected to the moderation team with know what other people are feeling, how this person is gonna get banned before the public gets to learn about it and of course one of my favourite things; favouritism. How something that they don't like is doing it ever so often.

Now this community isn't surprised when it comes to drama being from the centre of one of these third-party groups, as one of the threads that sparked me to write this was blue's people jumping the gun over Mobius' trolling antics that went too fair. In all fairness, for a guy who has been always been attacked and provoked by mobius from time to time, I am not surprised and actually glad that this person got what he deserves for taking things too far. However I am not happy that one of the people on the gun was Water, seeing how he was defending Mobius for something that is clearly something he shouldn’t done. However, I am not happy towards Cyber, Metal and Legion for leaking information to SPAK's people while at the same time Raz might be doing the same with Blue's people. For a port that respects transparency and accountability, it fails on resolving and respecting conflict of interest common grounds. In fact, the one person that has total understanding of this clause is Torr Sahamo, as he's never seen talking to these third-party groups or have any hard connection with them. I think this needs to stop, I also think there's need to be a community picked internal affairs when it comes to moderation team's accountability.

When I was hanging around in SPAK ts, most of the time whenever they will ask someone who was in the moderation team, would asked them to warn off heat or tell them what the other admins are thinking, etc and etc without any care of professionalism, all for the purpose of social gain. This has happen numerous of times in various dramas throughout the past year and half since I came back and I still think it's gonna stay the same if we don't do something about this. I can't say this for blue's ts but I wouldn't be surprised if Raz has been hanging out there. Now I'm having a hard time remembering all of what happen in vast details simply because I long became apathetic that there was no point to remember all the moderation-spak relationship because a)I try to white-wash everything to prove my respect for someone and b)because I thought it wasn't needed. However, I realise that I should'nt done that seeing how I was pissed in the mouth for all my respect I had for them.

Another thing that has spring into mind is lack of professionalism and again, absolute accountability when it comes to social engineering. I remember not too long ago during my peak time in this community was when Metal broke the very same rule she banned mobius(and trust me, when it comes to that point of history; it's like having an elephant’s memory. ) So Metal, I am not looking for an apology but merely stating the fact that you're eating your own irony when you posted a personal image of myself(which I didn't approved) and me with a out of context quote back in 2009.

Speaking about the past, what about Warton's third-party group called skullrant and asked me to “hack,” and I use that term loosely, Twister's clan forums and hijack it. It amazes me that you had moderation status during that time you told me and gave me the passwords to Twister's forum. Honestly, why would you risk your image for something that nobody gave a crap? You must've had great balls to ask someone who was quite literally hated by everyone and was recently banned permanently for for breaking every rule but cheating?(There's an actual irony)

It's funny how moderation has changed but only through appearance as I heard stories that “this person” was going to get permanently banned for doing something fraction of the punishment. Also just before I just finish, I just want to talk about Cyber. Oh Cyber, you're an literal definition of “apathetic person in power,” again, it amazes me that you allowed guys like me and Kal Foxis roam around, aliased without any action from the other moderation team. I actually wonder how many people you allow to roam around whether they cheated or not via aliases and proxies?

Talk about your bunches of proud, upstanding administrations.

This moderation needs to be dissolved and reformed into new people, people who doesn't have connections to cater to these special groups, but that's me and that's pretty much what this rant is about.

Also, I'm probably going to get a ton of flack, but fuck it, it hasn't stop me before.

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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#17

Post by Cyber' » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:09 am

Reach Term wrote: Oh Cyber, you're an literal definition of “apathetic person in power,” again, it amazes me that you allowed guys like me and Kal Foxis roam around, aliased without any action from the other moderation team. I actually wonder how many people you allow to roam around whether they cheated or not via aliases and proxies?


As of zandronum, I don't do any special favors like unbanning cheater;I'm rarely around as it is and it has been like that for a year, until winter comes up.

Nothing is preventing me from going to a person who's about to go too far and tell them to calm down. It's considered a warning, and it's usually for minor events.

I don't let kalfoxis around, if you have any suspicion of his alias, I'm open and listening to obtain them, along with IP's.

I don't let anybody "free roam" under alias. I'm sure you're not on the master banlist either.

The biggest thing is there are going to be book rules with the reforms as you've seen so far, and I agree that some defined rules should be set in place.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#18

Post by Metal » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:39 pm

I am not happy towards Cyber, Metal and Legion for leaking information to SPAK's people while at the same time Raz might be doing the same with Blue's people.


That's a pretty big accusation, do you have anything to back this up? Or is it just another rumor? Because I don't recall this at all.

Another thing that has spring into mind is lack of professionalism and again, absolute accountability when it comes to social engineering. I remember not too long ago during my peak time in this community was when Metal broke the very same rule she banned mobius(and trust me, when it comes to that point of history; it's like having an elephant’s memory. ) So Metal, I am not looking for an apology but merely stating the fact that you're eating your own irony when you posted a personal image of myself(which I didn't approved) and me with a out of context quote back in 2009.


I don't recall this either.

Your whole post just sounds like a fart in a wind storm without any actual evidence to back up your claims, imo.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#19

Post by Lollipop » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:38 pm

Metal wrote:Your whole post just sounds like a fart in a wind storm without any actual evidence to back up your claims, imo.


And is your post any different? Memory vs memory, and with my own thoughts on how adminstration is running and how these groups of people are connected with adminstration, I agree with him, this shit is rotten to the core with so few exceptions that it is just stupid.
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RE: Staff & rules reform thread

#20

Post by Metal » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:51 pm

And is your post any different?


This makes no sense. I'm asking him to provide evidence or logs of that happening. Your post doesn't really contribute anything to that.

Memory vs memory, and with my own thoughts on how adminstration is running and how these groups of people are connected with adminstration, I agree with him, this shit is rotten to the core with so few exceptions that it is just stupid.


Aaaand you would like us to do what to improve? You call "Administration is rotten to the core and it's stupid" without any input on how things can be changed. So yeah, how about some insight instead of just calling bullshit.
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