Major staff reforms

[one_Two]

My cents worth: happened about 3 times someone has asked me about acs or some shit (I know right ;3) so I say they're better talking to TMC as he knows allot about it or zamapping in general but they are put off by the fact he seems to have a superiority complex, like he gets annoyed when people don't read the zdoom wiki and ask questions or some shit. I got banned from zamapping for leaving without my question getting answered, like oh I'm sorry I'll just wait hours for an answer, scared to fucking re-ask my question in case I get shouted at/ told to be patient/ people are busy people etc.. But that aside I'm really not that fussed about him being mod, I have few run in's with him.

[Watermelon]

I don't see how we aren't transparent. We were there answering every question you had in IRC last night. Your demand about "listing the exact thing each person does" is kind of silly since it's listed on the front page, and people tend to help each other out.

From what I've seen it's out of date. If it's kept up to date that'd be the good enough for me.

As I said in IRC, if it's best for the community I'll absolutely step down with no hard feelings. But also as I said before, administration isn't only about doing tangible actions nor is it some hidden tribunal. It's not that I'm trying to hide what is done, it's just tricky to describe. Like having multiple admins makes things more reasonable for the staff. Someone may see a problem, bring it up to me, then I'd talk to Metal, and we would talk about it. Or a mod might be on the fence about something like if a post should be split. Or take last night for example, I was doing my best to answer your questions, it got late, I had to sleep, then Infurnus took over. I really don't see any benefits about "making space" other than image. The answer to your question I guess is the way it is now makes things easier for us. I hope this shed light on some of your concerns.

It does, I appreciate all the help you guys gave me last night.

We also need TheMisterCat to give us his input because he's one of the few staff members who it appears a lot of people have problems with but are too afraid to come out and say it. So I figure I'll get the ball rolling and see where it goes.

I hate to be "that guy" but you say this as if it's official that he HAS to post here. He doesn't. Not to mention, I haven't seen anyone come forward with issues about him until you doing it now, and nobody else seems to think so. If he is inactive as you say he is, why would people be too afraid to talk about it if he isn't even around to scare them?

I figure since he's never active on IRC except for when a majority of us are sleeping (excluding euros) the only place he can hopefully put to rest the current things I've heard against him would be here.
I'd be more than happy to see him handle it on IRC; based on prior experience the chances of that are very low.

I hate to be "that guy" but you say this as if it's official that he HAS to post here.

I hate to be "that guy" but why does a simple user feel he has the ground to seriously discuss major staff reforms and who needs kicked off/included?
Isn't that sort of stuff reserved for administration and staff to decide...?

If the staff want to act in a democratic way, then power has to be subject to scrutiny. Like in real life... people have to be accountable for their actions. If we want to go full Stalin, then I'd at least like to know that staff operate without any input from the community and I'll just go back to doing whatever it is I'd be doing and not bother if that's how it's going to roll.
Simple user, or person who runs multiple major admin positions on multiple major clusters... it doesn't matter. Everyone's voice should be a viable one and be fair grounds for discussion.

[Dynamo]

My cents worth: happened about 3 times someone has asked me about acs or some shit (I know right ;3) so I say they're better talking to TMC as he knows allot about it or zamapping in general but they are put off by the fact he seems to have a superiority complex, like he gets annoyed when people don't read the zdoom wiki and ask questions or some shit. I got banned from zamapping for leaving without my question getting answered, like oh I'm sorry I'll just wait hours for an answer, scared to fucking re-ask my question in case I get shouted at/ told to be patient/ people are busy people etc.. But that aside I'm really not that fussed about him being mod, I have few run in's with him.

First and foremost how is this even relevant to the thread? You don't like TMC? Fine. Nobody cares. Second, considering many of the questions that get answered already have answers on the zdoom wiki what is even the point of asking? You can go ahead and ask if you don't understand something, and if nobody who is willing to help is around in #zamapping feel free to ask elsewhere, such as the forums here or #zdoom or something

RTFM.

Overall I think here people are simply basing themselves of personal opinions over an user who is very knowledgeable about mapping/coding btw and has helped in A LOT of cases. Yes I do think he is a bit arrogant and comes off as a bit of a dick at times, but I could probably give you a list of people who are way more arrogant than he has ever been but are nonetheless respected by the majority of people. But I guess considering the latest events it's best that I keep that stuff to myself because otherwise people might think me and TheMisterCat could upload a virus for whoever joins #zamapping.

[one_Two]

My cents worth: happened about 3 times someone has asked me about acs or some shit (I know right ;3) so I say they're better talking to TMC as he knows allot about it or zamapping in general but they are put off by the fact he seems to have a superiority complex, like he gets annoyed when people don't read the zdoom wiki and ask questions or some shit. I got banned from zamapping for leaving without my question getting answered, like oh I'm sorry I'll just wait hours for an answer, scared to fucking re-ask my question in case I get shouted at/ told to be patient/ people are busy people etc.. But that aside I'm really not that fussed about him being mod, I have few run in's with him.

First and foremost how is this even relevant to the thread? You don't like TMC? Fine. Nobody cares. Second, considering many of the questions that get answered already have answers on the zdoom wiki what is even the point of asking? You can go ahead and ask if you don't understand something, and if nobody who is willing to help is around in #zamapping feel free to ask elsewhere, such as the forums here or #zdoom or something

RTFM.

Never said I didn't like TMC, I thought I made that pretty clear. But there are ways and means of telling someone if they're doing something wrong. It's pretty easy to see people think they are better than someone cos they know shit about doom modding or whatnot, but whatever. It's not very welcoming is all I'm saying.

Edit:

It amazes me the tone of your response, with another person you could have easily escalated things. "RTFM" completely nullifies your point imo.

[Watermelon]

But since the purpose isn't clear for you, my goal is to remove people who may not do anything and just fill a position. If they are filling some kind of position in the background then the staff should let us know exactly what they're doing because last time I checked the administration wanted to be transparent, and so far it doesn't feel that way.
If I was to fully get my way... which I don't expect... I'd like a list of all the staff members and what contributions they do and go from there.

If staff wants to be opaque and do everything behind closed doors without anyone being able to hold them accountable, then I implore the staff to just come out and say it now so I don't waste any more time with this topic; thought I doubt that is a direction the staff want to go in. In addition, I'm also against a superfluous amount of admins if half of them can handle the exact same job.

We also need TheMisterCat to give us his input because he's one of the few staff members who it appears a lot of people have problems with but are too afraid to come out and say it. So I figure I'll get the ball rolling and see where it goes.

Most of you guys know my take on bandronum's staff. I'm not fond of them, and they aren't fond of me. But in this case I fully support them. This is extremely demanding and literally serves zero purpose. Nobody should ever have to outline everything they do, mod/admin/user/whatever. That is nuts. The forums are running smoothly right now. People have a name to go to for whatever reason and it gets done. Any real rabble rousing is dealt with pretty swiftly. There is legit no reason at all to replace "inactive" staff especially given the reasons for their absence. "Oman here comes school, shit guy I'm going to lose mod status because of it!"

To be extremely blunt all I see here is a power grab attempt. "Remove inactive for actives (like me!) to fill their role."

I'd rather have less people than more. I already have enough on my plate with handling all the major server clusters + IRL stuff to even remotely contemplate becoming a staff member should even such an opportunity arise. As you can see though I'd rather trim down then just adding more people onto it at this point.
Plus we've already come to a better conclusion than what was originally stated so I'll just count your post as out of the loop.

[Dynamo]

Sorry, I know I'm going to sound like an asshole now but here goes

I'd rather have less people than more.

Not only I don't get why this is important, but I also don't get why you care. What matters is how things are taken care of, not how many people are working on it.

As you can see though I'd rather trim down then just adding more people onto it at this point.

Last I checked that was the admins' job/decision to do, not a regular user's. It's fine that you express your opinion on how you think the staff should be run, but it's your opinion and not your choice on how it is actually run.

Plus we've already come to a better conclusion than what was originally stated so I'll just count your post as out of the loop.

Uhm... I am pretty sure his opinion matters as much as yours, or mine, or any other user's, but whateverrrrr

I apologize if I came off as a dick.

[Zap610]

I'd rather have less people than more. [...] I'd rather trim down then just adding more people onto it at this point.Plus we've already come to a better conclusion than what was originally stated so I'll just count your post as out of the loop.

I don't think your intentions are bad, but you should phrase your words better. You are making it seem like all of us work for you, or that you have a say in who should be cut. You might reply to that arguing that you do have a say as a user, as this forum area allows you to express that. But there's a difference between having a say and having an opinion. I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, but my point remains that you are coming off sounding like you have a say and it's rubbing a lot of users and staff the wrong way, hence the replies targeted at you.

[Watermelon]

No worries, here we go:

I'd rather have less people than more.

Not only I don't get why this is important, but I also don't get why you care. What matters is how things are taken care of, not how many people are working on it.

For people doing tasks like maintaining the master server, or IRC, they can be as inactive as they want. As long as the services are running it's fine.

If however we are going to have people who are giving input on how the port is running and possibly mould the future of where we can take things in various directions, it would be logical to have people who aren't so far out of the loop due to RL or such to be assisting in decision making.
If various staff members get to the point where they are so disconnected with the community, what is the point of having them? We could just have any random person fill their position. I (like others) want to have someone who is well informed and will make a good decision on behalf of the port.

As you can see though I'd rather trim down then just adding more people onto it at this point.

Last I checked that was the admins' job/decision to do, not a regular user's. It's fine that you express your opinion on how you think the staff should be run, but it's your opinion and not your choice on how it is actually run.

I understand that. I felt by making this post I'd get some attention on the issue, and even clear up stuff while getting to know the staff better. So far everything I've set out for has been accomplished successfully, and I even may have gotten an additional rank for inactive admins to be put into action. Double the success.
While I feel like I may have stepped on a few fingers, hopefully no one took it personally. I figured a slightly provocative way of doing it worked; hell it even got Shai to post.

Plus we've already come to a better conclusion than what was originally stated so I'll just count your post as out of the loop.

Uhm... I am pretty sure his opinion matters as much as yours, or mine, or any other user's, but whateverrrrr

He can post his opinion as much as he wants much like I can. I'm sure everyone will heed his very useful posts.

---

I'd rather have less people than more. [...] I'd rather trim down then just adding more people onto it at this point.Plus we've already come to a better conclusion than what was originally stated so I'll just count your post as out of the loop.

I don't think you're intentions are bad, but you should phrase your words better. You are making it seem like all of us work for you, or that you have a say in who should be cut. You might reply to that arguing that you do have a say as a user, as this forum area allows you to express that. But there's a difference between having a say and having an opinion. I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, but my point remains that you are coming off sounding like you have a say and it's rubbing a lot of users and staff the wrong way, hence the replies targeted at you.

I deliberately chose provocative words and an aggressive stance to ensure that there would be posting. I figured a passive post might not lure people out.

It was at risk of upsetting some people though, hopefully I havent.

[Zap610]

I deliberately chose provocative words and an aggressive stance to ensure that there would be posting. I figured a passive post might not lure people out.

It was at risk of upsetting some people though, hopefully I havent.

I'm not upset, only disappointed that you felt it was necessary to provoke us for answers rather than actually asking in a respectful, civil manner.

[Cyber']

This is specifically for staff. This does not affect developers.


Inactive/why do we have them group:
-----------------------------------
Zap610 - // He's online quite a bit, mostly nights. Lurks the boards mostly, and is around in the #staff channels. Active mostly during nights cause school and such.

Wartorn - //Is currently moving around the country / vacation.

Infurnus - //Had problems with his computer, refer to his post here.

Disguise - //Retired

Grymmoire - //Inactive

Legion - //Focuses more on the competitive half as far as moderation goes.

Shaikoten - //Because it's Shai.

HeavenWraith - // Active when we're all asleep.

TheMisterCat - //Mainly on #zamapping. Not a competitive player but good at helping with modding. Granted you'll have to make some effort too.

I don't see the need to remove anyone really.

[XCOPY]

Just keep as it is, more people on the administrations means more efficiency here and more constant monitoring, time zones, etc. without the community having to completely deal with constant trolling and away admins. It's not because one feels that so many peoples on administration are useless that everything must be changed when there are no problem at all. When there are a lot of trolling activity and an actual problem is happening with that besides bitching for the sake of one's morality, that will be the time to change staff. That day didn't come and it is quite efficient for now.

Give one good reason to change staff, unless you want to put a friend of yours in staff so you can have some unfair immunity to do whatever you want (really... I can't imagine another reason besides this). Point the bad sides of having "so many" admins here.

Remember, being admin is not a prize, it's a responsability.

[Watermelon]

Thanks for being passive aggressive, fuck you too.

#1: How is it you are complaining about transparency when not even a month ago >wbuild closed source?

I didn't think actually anyone would care about finding a few lines of code. But hey, when people asked for it, the source came out ^_^
So lets toss this frivolous point out into the trash.

#2: Instead of brushing me off like a little bitch

Don't worry, I'm in the majority of everyone who tune out your baww'ing.

by saying "out of the loop," why don't update the thread with what's been accomplished/said elsewhere

Already was stated. I'll let you go re-read.

You also neglected to actually address my points, although did so in a roundabout way with other posts, so whatever, that's fine.

You're implying your post had any worthwhile points that contribute to the conversation. As per usual, they were duds.

#3 Intentional aggressive posting? How the fuck do you manage to get away with that, I must know your trade secrets.

I'm not upset, only disappointed that you felt it was necessary to provoke us for answers rather than actually asking in a respectful, civil manner.

I sort of deserve this for thinking people wouldn't take it seriously when I said that.
Since it was foolish on my part to joke about that, I take that part back.

[Metal]

Guess it's time for me to speak up on this matter. I'll start from the top.

Watermelons first post

From my own point of view, Water is stressing his concern for the amount of staff that are online and active versus the staff that are inactive and usually unavailable. This is understandable, I do believe all staff should be relatively active and have SOME part and hand in the on-goings of Zandronum.

I personally don't think the inactivity of those few people is a problem.

Actually, it is. Everyone in staff has a set job to do and when one person isn't participating, it all lies on the shoulders of someone else or doesn't get finished at all or is set on the back burner.

Qent is a terrible example because he is a puppet without a spine. He has some logic but is more machine than anything else.

I see something completely different from him in our staff channel. He shows his own personality, his own mind and doesn't jump on any bandwagons.

How are you defining active? By playing? Half the time these "active" people play under alias. Playing doesn't make you a great mod/admin, it actually makes you a worse one since from what I've noticed is that you are more inclined to abuse your power.

Do you have any grounds to base that statement on? I mean, where does one get an opinion like that from staff playing the game they administrate/moderate?

You give us a list of people you want to be removed from staff and say it's to help others, but! How does an inactive admin prevent anyone from doing their job?

As I stated earlier, if there's less activity from the staff hired and the staff currently on, it continues to lie on the shoulders of someone else in that position. It doesn't prevent anyone from doing their job, it makes it more difficult and time consuming.

"Keep in mind you aren't allowed to publicly express opinions on staff."

It was late and I worded this poorly. It should be understood as "while on staff," not just expressing opinions (which staff are open to and we are allowed, even encouraged, to do).

This is quite true. I've had to hold back and the rest of the staff have had to hold back their true opinions and thoughts on things just to save flamewars/drama bait. While on staff, it is encouraged to keep a neutral opinion/mind on every situation to discard any biased opinions on things.

You give us a list of people you want to be removed from staff and say it's to help others, but! How does an inactive admin prevent anyone from doing their job?

Think about what you said for a second. In inactive admin is someone who is pretty much MIA, and you can't do a job in that state (obviously). Not only that but being away so much leaves you with a complete disconnect from the community.

This is an issue in some cases. Having something that's considered dramatic or traumatic happen in the community then having to go back and explain the situation in detail to which ever staff member was inactive during the whole thing is time consuming depending on the situation.

If they are filling some kind of position in the background then the staff should let us know exactly what they're doing because last time I checked the administration wanted to be transparent, and so far it doesn't feel that way.

Staff is as transparent as it's going to get at this current time. We currently have #zastaff, this public staff forum, the public master server list, public IRC and Forum ban lists, I even try to let people know what's going on in this subforum as much as possible and ask for input on things. There are issues that need to be dealt with privately to save a lot of hassle.

I hate to be "that guy" but you say this as if it's official that he HAS to post here.

I hate to be "that guy" but why does a simple user feel he has the ground to seriously discuss major staff reforms and who needs kicked off?
Isn't that sort of stuff reserved for administration and staff to decide...?

Every user here has the right to say/express how they feel, even with staff. I have no problems at all. But honestly, it is how you approach it. I believe Watermelon tried to approach this the right way, and sure he is pretty misguided on a few things but he's not slandering us or trying to be disrespectful and I applaud that. It's perfectly fine if you say things like "This person seems inactive and hasn't contributed to anything that I've seen in a while, why are they still on staff?" It's an honest question, but only someone who knows about the situation can answer.

Everybody talking about TMC

He is quite snarky, and it's pretty hilarious, imo. However, he is on at times when most staff are not. He looks over IRC during, what is, my ZzZ time and apparently he's helpful in zamapping, I'll take everyones word on that as I can see him doing that. So I have no further comments about TMC.

='Decay']Most of you guys know my take on bandronum's staff. I'm not fond of them, and they aren't fond of me. But in this case I fully support them. This is extremely demanding and literally serves zero purpose. Nobody should ever have to outline everything they do, mod/admin/user/whatever. That is nuts. The forums are running smoothly right now. People have a name to go to for whatever reason and it gets done. Any real rabble rousing is dealt with pretty swiftly. There is legit no reason at all to replace "inactive" staff especially given the reasons for their absence. "Oman here comes school, shit guy I'm going to lose mod status because of it!"

To be extremely blunt all I see here is a power grab attempt. "Remove inactive for actives (like me!) to fill their role."

We may be more fond of you if you let go of the constant attitude that you compose in your posts. Though, I do agree it is very demanding. Especially the way Watermelon has proposed it, but I do think he is trying to make suggestions rather than demand it.

Not only I don't get why this is important, but I also don't get why you care. What matters is how things are taken care of, not how many people are working on it.

Actually, this is an issue, for me anyway. As I stated before, the less staff, the more that lies on someone else's shoulders. It's best when staff works as a team and everyone pitches in as much as someone who is active. It really helps.

You are making it seem like all of us work for you

To be quite fair, this is how some of the staff is treated everyday. People demand things constantly with no real intentions of being polite or showing good mannerisms. "Do this" "Unban me" It is pretty frequent, but we learn to look past it. Sorry for the offtopic. But again, I think it's mere suggestions but you are correct with the phrasing, I think it needs to be re-worded.

Thanks for being passive aggressive, fuck you too.

This is what I was talking about. For the last time, please don't do this.

Point the bad sides of having "so many" admins here.

Remember, being admin is not a prize, it's a responsability.[/align]

Having too many admins can just be a cluster fuck and result in conflicting opinions constantly which halts at anything being done. The amount of admins we have currently is just fine, it's just the current activity. I don't believe in cutting people, but maybe a group would suffice for inactivity as we had before. You can place yourself in there and bring yourself out when you're done with RL and wish to come back and help out.

Being an admin is indeed a huge responsibility, even for a small community it has it's difficult moments. But if you love the game, like what you're doing and like helping people as much as you can, it's one of the best things you can do.

I tried to reply to everyone as much and as open minded as possible. My grammar right now is probably terrible on 4 hours sleep, sorry in advance. However, I wish the some of the staff who aren't in completely different time zones were a little more active, but RL > This.

Edit: Just seen waters post before my book. Please don't agitate the situation.

[TheMisterCat]

Hi there. I'm not here to retort against any accusations, just to point out that the way I contribute is to help users help themselves. If this sometimes gets misinterpreted as aggression then I can only apologize. And yes, I live halfway across the planet, so it may seem like I'm relatively inactive. To be fair I have been slacking a bit due to real life circumstances.

[Tenchu]

imo TheMisterCat is the last person who should be removed from staff. dude's funny as hell and keeps #zandronum interesting during the late hours :)

[Disguise]

[...]
Disguise - Great guy, rarely ever on/don't see much... is he still on staff?
[...]

Uhm.... I am always on IRC... ALWAYS! So I'm guessing you were referring to online playing. I gave up on playing online when I gave up on being competitive.

I also retired from staff, like... 2 or so months ago? I think? My memory's a bit hazy.

@Tux: I did not retire because of studying, I'm not in school anymore. I retired because of my own reasons.

P.S. Could I be included in that Inactive/Retired Staff group, pretty please?

[Spider]

Well personally I don't think staff needs a change, there might be some inactive staff members but most of them do their job when they can and that is what matters, also staff doesn't need to actually play the game to be active, i'm pretty sure if i go to the staff channel and I need to report a cheater or any other kind of problem theres gonna be atleast 1 person online to solve this problem, and that is what matters in my opinion.

Forums are running smooth too, bad posts get removed... people get banned or suspended, what needs to be changed?

[UnTrustable]

Forums are running smooth too, bad posts get removed... people get banned or suspended, what needs to be changed?

The suspension duration.... Maybe the ban duration too.
Cheating the game by using bots, of hacks, well thats valid if you ask me.