The recent youtube video

[Reach Term]

Are we seriously driving into the philosophical ethics and morels behind this ban? To be fair, I've encounter each and everyone of them while unaliased, alias and etc. I have to say, this is not news for this to happen. Bluewiz and his lot has said that clans and server owners(whether it'll be TS or cluster) that they should take the flak with other people's trolling(e.g. Tosen and the IDL game on Oda) Well in that sight alone, the ban was well-needed. As for Ivan, I can understand.... both on all sides have said bad, good and neutral things about him. I for one, think he can be a good person with the right people and that he should get a term ban, which he did. Ral, Kirboy and Dranzer are well needed because based on my own experienced that they're nothing more than low card, crap stirring players that doesn't even have the hindsight of what they're doing. Bluewiz(among other people who would be nameless)... This guy is the catalysis of holding Zandro back into it's horrid final dark days of skulltag. This was a slap of the face.... from what I heard, both mod players and priv players hate him and I can't blame them based on every drama related thing that has happen since the birth of zandro.

I would not be surprised if bluewiz was the real person behind it.

[AlexMax]

Do you even read the discussion? That was just a bait. Their idea was supposed to fuck up aimbot users. Yet that was probably a bad idea... and blabla on of them something about encouraging admins to test it or something... blablabla.

It was a .cmd file because it was not an aimbot, but it was probably something like...

Code: Select all

@echo off
del C:/something/system32

Oh and that "/something/" is in case some moron would like to run it, even through I am unsure if it still even works.

This sounds exactly like the virus that Doom2pro released for ZDaemon, and it's not any more ethically sound today than it was years ago.

It's a well known fact that legitimate players sometimes have a copy of the hacks to check for suspicious wallhacking or to figure out how sophisticated the aimbot is. Just because someone downloads the hack and runs it does not mean they intend to use it online. But there is more to it than that. If you use cheats online, at most you are breaking the TOS between yourself and the server owner and can get banned, but if you maliciously delete files off of someone elses' computer, you are more than likely flirting with big boy criminal laws because at that point you have released a virus. A really unsophisticated one, but a virus nonetheless.

(I say "likely" because although there is no U.S. law that covers viruses that affect computers that do not belong to the federal government, state law and other countaries' law often picks up the slack)

Vigilante justice is not a legitimate answer to cheating. Never has been, and never will be.

[Reach Term]

(I say "likely" because although there is no U.S. law that covers viruses that affect computers that do not belong to the federal government, state law and other countaries' law often picks up the slack)

In Kriboy's case, yes there is:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/services/g ... ws-eng.htm

Also if someone found out who made the virus... and it harm computers on a macro-levels. I think ususally law would've been property damage and cybercrime.

[Cruduxy]

People fighting over how ethical their act was should remember that not all ethical things are legal and not all legal things are ethical.

[Springy]

I am seriously not surprised by some people. It's stupidity at its finest really. Why would you promote something like this and better yet why even download something like this just to cheat and ruin other people's fun? Ral I am definitely not surprised by but Ivan I am. I don't care if it's to shame users or what you shouldn't do something like that anyway that's just wrong.

[Ru5tK1ng]

They posted the video here on the forums and encouraged the staff to download and "test" it. The Youtube comments would also encourage any random passers by to run it if they are inclined to try cheating. Although technically the malware was on Youtube/Mediafire, to me it's quite clear that there was malicious intent. The only question in my mind was whether it would be right to use that knowledge, or to ignore it on the grounds that it happened on another website. In this case, I believe that the security risk was too great to stand on principle.

I believe first and foremost that 'they' needs to be clarified and not misrepresented. From my understanding only Kirboy posted the video on the forums and the only individual encouraging the staff to download the malware was Dranzer. None of the other 3 who were banned were involved in passing the hack to the staff. This fact alone further diminishes the role they played in the whole ordeal and subsequently the only thing they are guilty of is simply posting youtube comments (and bad comments I might add).

Quite frankly if any random by-passer is convinced to download a malware hack off a site such as mediafire by comments posted in all caps with obvious troll characteristics, then their computers deserve to get curb stomped. This is 2013, not 1999, such naivety is inexcusable. Ultimately, it boils down to administrators policing their community members and punishing them for actions carried out in an area out of their jurisdiction. A three month ban for a miniscule comment is overly gratuitous.

[Qent]

It is not the sheer amount of damage that this could have caused, but the intent to harm that worries me. All of them misrepresented a Trojan horse as a cheating program, and none of them spoke out when e.g. Dranzer asked the staff to run it. We now know that all of them are the kind of people who would trick someone into getting a Trojan. We cannot ignore this just because the comments were on Youtube instead of Zandronum.

Playing it off as some kind of perverted intelligence test is also inexcusable.

[one_Two]

Quite frankly if any random by-passer is convinced to download a malware hack off a site such as mediafire by comments posted in all caps with obvious troll characteristics, then their computers deserve to get curb stomped. This is 2013, not 1999, such naivety is inexcusable. Ultimately, it boils down to administrators policing their community members and punishing them for actions carried out in an area out of their jurisdiction. A three month ban for a miniscule comment is overly gratuitous.

Quite a lot of young people play doom and it's not a far guess to think some of them might want to use aimbot's or whatever, it isn't fair that their comps get fucked up because of that (comps they probably don't own themselves). It's like you're suggesting having your files deleted is some kind of idiot tax.

[Metal]

This is 2013, not 1999, such naivety is inexcusable.

But not uncommon. And certainly not extinct. I banned all parties involved because...well, they were involved. This kind of behavior is not acceptable by ANY means. The fact that you're here trying to back them up is mind boggling. They were in the wrong. Most, if not all, of the people here agree on this.

These people in particular do nothing but troll the port as well, while a couple may contribute their share of work, it's almost as if they feel they can troll or maliciously scout their way through anything, bans included. In other words "They won't ban me for this, they can't!" Fact is, we can, and will. Their work towards Zandronum doesn't excuse promotion of an outside program that was intended for malicious use on Zandronum and Zandro users.

Although it may not be "smart" to download these types of programs, a lot of people (Including staff for very obvious reasons) do so. Some download the aimbot/wallhack to check it's source, some download it to watch other users who do use it for malicious intent and the staff to download and check its validity. And yes, some are stupid enough to download and try to begin with. However, I'd like to think that we're protecting those who don't intend to use it for malicious intent. I'm very glad it was caught in time and I don't think we had that many causalities (I don't recall anyone coming forward about it and they probably won't).

In my opinion, the people who received short ban lengths, got off easy, considering their attitudes on the port itself.

[Ru5tK1ng]

It is not the sheer amount of damage that this could have caused, but the intent to harm that worries me. All of them misrepresented a Trojan horse as a cheating program, and none of them spoke out when e.g. Dranzer asked the staff to run it. We now know that all of them are the kind of people who would trick someone into getting a Trojan. We cannot ignore this just because the comments were on Youtube instead of Zandronum.

Playing it off as some kind of perverted intelligence test is also inexcusable.

Intent to harm? What evidence have you that incriminates Ivan, Blue and Ral of having knowledge of Dranzer's actions? From what I've gathered Dranzer acted on his own and did not notify anyone about his passing of the hack to the staff until after the fact. While they are guilty of posting comments, that alone is not sufficient enough to link them to the actions of Dranzer. If there was true intent to spread the false hack around, certainly they would have passed it around on irc themselves. The charge of misrepresentation hardly qualifies as much (caps, trollism).

Playing it off? I'm simply reaffirming what metal said in the first post: (Don't ever download unknown files to your actual computer, you'll regret it in times like these).

aka Only an idiot would have downloaded the file trustingly.

But not uncommon. And certainly not extinct. I banned all parties involved because...well, they were involved. This kind of behavior is not acceptable by ANY means. The fact that you're here trying to back them up is mind boggling. They were in the wrong. Most, if not all, of the people here agree on this.

Hold on, don't be mistaken, I am not condoning the video at all. In fact I have never once backed up Dranzer or Kirboy. Those two deserve their punishment. I am posting because it seems quite ludicrous to handout bans based on individuals being loosely involved. Unless you are implying there was a grand conspiracy.

Their work towards Zandronum doesn't excuse promotion of an outside program that was intended for malicious use on Zandronum and Zandro users.

I agree. That is why I am not raising any questions regarding Kirboy and Dranzer. I can't see how posting a comment and nothing else constitutes as promotion. It simply appears that the other 3 were grouped together with the real culprits in order to be rid of them.

[Qent]

TBH I think we could have reached the same conclusion had the video not been posted to the forums, and had Dranzer not targeted the staff like he did; the thread alerted us to the Trojan's existence. And Ivan, Blue, and Ral got lighter sentences than Dranzer and Kirboy, didn't they? Whether well or poorly, they posted in such a way that could indicate that the file was indeed a cheat; and they certainly didn't warn anyone that it wasn't.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I do agree that one should not download and run suspicious software; however, I do not think that that is justification for distributing malware.

[The Toxic Avenger]

Ral didn't get a lighter sentence; it may seem like 3 months, but he has a 6 month masterban and then 9 months on top of that, then 3 more months from this. That's 18 months. He's out until next November or so.

[Qent]

The part from this incident was only three months, though.

[Razgriz]

TBH I think we could have reached the same conclusion had the video not been posted to the forums, and had Dranzer not targeted the staff like he did; the thread alerted us to the Trojan's existence.

No I disagree, only because nobody would have seen it immediately and I along with others would have told him to take it down. Also in the event that it was seen, it was not posted on Zandronum, and we wouldn't have a basis to even punish them.

+ Don't Link Piracy or "Abandonware"

This is our only rule about the matter, and doing anything past that would raise a lot of questions. We aren't any type of internet police that should monitor what other people do on their spare time on any site but Zandronum.

And Ivan, Blue, and Ral got lighter sentences than Dranzer and Kirboy, didn't they?

Judging by how the conversation has progressed, he's arguing how they didn't have enough involvement to warrant any kind of punishment. Apparently even Tiger doesn't really understand how the comments that resulted in the bans is justifiable. and honestly, I didn't either, but as I don't have much say, I didn't really bother with reasoning about the bans too much.

I apologize if I misunderstood you. I do agree that one should not download and run suspicious software; however, I do not think that that is justification for distributing malware.

I think the point has already been addressed in the last paragraphs in Rust's post.

[IdeIdoom]

And Ivan, Blue, and Ral got lighter sentences than Dranzer and Kirboy, didn't they?

Judging by how the conversation has progressed, he's arguing how they didn't have enough involvement to warrant any kind of punishment. Apparently even Tiger doesn't really understand how the comments that resulted in the bans is justifiable. and honestly, I didn't either, but as I don't have much say, I didn't really bother with reasoning about the bans too much.

The comments were encouraging people to download this malicious file.
Even though people are not falling for this, other stupid handicaps would fall for this and download it with those comments and the computer is doomed.

[Qent]

Personally, I see Catastrophe, Ral, and Ivan as banned not for the comments themselves, but for being the sort of people who would make such comments. They could not have broken any rule on Zandronum, because they did none of it here. Yet they still pose a serious threat to the community and its members, and therefore they've got to go. It may seem coldly utilitarian, and ordinarily (e.g. if it really were a cheat) I wouldn't advise such action, but here I see no other choice.

[quote=Tiger]Sounds like businesses checking over their employee's facebook messages, but that can't be right for this case[/quote]

It does a bit, and perhaps if we were a business and they were our employees, then it would have been the wrong call.

[Razgriz]

And Ivan, Blue, and Ral got lighter sentences than Dranzer and Kirboy, didn't they?

Judging by how the conversation has progressed, he's arguing how they didn't have enough involvement to warrant any kind of punishment. Apparently even Tiger doesn't really understand how the comments that resulted in the bans is justifiable. and honestly, I didn't either, but as I don't have much say, I didn't really bother with reasoning about the bans too much.

The comments were encouraging people to download this malicious file.
Even though people are not falling for this, other stupid handicaps would fall for this and download it with those comments and the computer is doomed.

I can encourage people to do things but there is nothing I can do can make them do those exact things. I can understand how it can be a problem, because it then attempts to legitimatize (even poorly). However it's not the same as say, hyper-linking it in my posts, purposely telling people in a forum or IRC channel to take a look at it, or even forcing people to download it one way or another.

It's about a comment on a Youtube video, something anyone could have done. What do you think would have happened if after a few days, you had all kinds of people posting in the comments section, at least 50 comments? Do you think the staff should go through the trouble of finding out who each and every one of those people were just because they tried to pass it off as legitimate, and then attempt to ban all 50 accounts even though that took place on a non-Zandro site? It's still out of our hands technically since we aren't responsible for people in any way when they're on Youtube or other non-Zandro sites.

That's beyond what we should be doing.

---

Personally, I see Catastrophe, Ral, and Ivan as banned not for the comments themselves, but for being the sort of people who would make such comments. They could not have broken any rule on Zandronum, because they did none of it here. Yet they still pose a serious threat to the community and its members, and therefore they've got to go. It may seem coldly utilitarian, and ordinarily (e.g. if it really were a cheat) I wouldn't advise such action, but here I see no other choice.

That's the same logic as being stopped at an airport just for looking Muslim.

Also it's a joke to say a Youtube comment poses a serious threat to the Zandronum community. My post above describes what I mean.

[Marcaek]

JUst a small aside, those who think that people downloading this deserve what they get are forgetting that some people share computers, IE parent-child or just a one-comp household.

[Qent]

We are not policing Youtube. If we were, then we would be combating their comments on Youtube, not here. The staff are not responsible for what Zandronum members do on Youtube. If we were, then Youtube would be bringing the hammer down on the Zandronum staff for allowing malware to be posted on their site. We are (in my opinion) not even punishing Ivan, Bluewiz, and Ral for the sake of justice, but to protect ourselves from their ilk (and hopefully provide incentive to change), and demonstrate that such behavior will not be tolerated.

That's the same logic as being stopped at an airport just for looking Muslim.

Why not tighten the analogy, and consider a Muslim who has posted on Youtube that he plans to crash an airplane into a skyscraper? We really do have a bit more than the fact that he's Muslim.

Also it's a joke to say a Youtube comment poses a serious threat to the Zandronum community. My post above describes what I mean.

Malware is no laughing matter, unfortunately. This may have posed only a minor thread, but better to take a hard line against it and ensure that the community is on board.

[KalFoxis]

just based on how all this is playing out it seems more like acting upon a negative impact on the zandronum advertisement. because of that vid im pretty sure the admins saw it not only as a security threat but a negative impact on the port as far as advertisement. if any passerby downloads that and their computer gets screwed then your looking as a negative impact for zandro. people will see this and be like" oh no way man! that port has virus issues" It's a security + Advertisement impact.

So the admins did what needed to be done from the looks of it, I don't think they need to justify or profe their justifacations at this point.