All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
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jdagenet
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#141

Post by jdagenet » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:50 pm

De-M-oN wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:16 pm
I would like it if the Rocket Launcher could have an altfire...
I'm reworking the altfire a bit already. I'm gonna try a guided missile on the alt fire. Basically you can control it with your mouse and your few point transfers to the rocket itself.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#142

Post by Catastrophe » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:18 pm

Ok after landing a 100-bomb, my thoughts.

Stealth Knife OP
The issue with the knife right now is that it's 1-shot in almost every scenario with the fastest class in the game. It's chainsaw 2.0 all over again.
Some possible fixes:
  • Just change it back to what it was and say fuck it.
  • Make it do the current amount of damage on backstabs only.
  • Make it deal current damage only on your first attack. So the initial attack you do that makes you unstealth will deal the current high damage while subsequent attacks are much weaker. If you are already unstealthed either manually or via enemy damage, your first-attack bonus is gone. (Rewards skill/counterplay)
Mastodon OP
It feels like the main fire for the mastodon was literally a copy+paste of the RPG projectile (which isn't bad) but without adjusting the damage values (which is bad). Currently it can take out both infantry and mechs effortlessly. It should not be able to do this for such a low tier mech. The only issue I see is the main attack. Having abused it, I can't really give an opinion on the altfire/speed/health as the mainfire is just that strong. The damage it does to the Orca is fine, but it's way too strong against its heavier brethren. If there was a way to nerf its damage against heavier mechs specifically, I'd highly recommend it on top of one of the suggestions below.
Some possible fixes:
  • Make rocket a bit faster but remove homing and tighten the spread of the mainfire.
  • Make it so you have to "charge" your lock-on for it to home in.
  • Make it so it only homes-in on mechs.
  • Make it so it has to reload after 5 or 10 shots, with a somewhat long reload time and inability to move while doing so. This way people can be punished for missing. It can choose to reload earlier for less time on reloads. There needs to be a visual cue for when it's reloading so that players know when it's vulnerable.
  • Make it much more expensive.
Chem Thrower OP
I don't know if there were engine changes or it's intentional but the chem thrower is shredding infantry wayyyyy too fast. I really don't understand why it was buffed, it had practical use before and was decently balanced from what I saw. But now it's a really cheesy way to kill people. The only fix I can recommend is just change it back to what it was or reduce its effective range significantly. I do like the damage it deals with the Rhino however.

Plasma Cannon OP
LOL it's not op. Just add the purchase cooldown back for 60 to 90 seconds.


...And that's my thoughts on what's OP currently. I really enjoyed some of the changes made, especially the new mechs. Anything I haven't bitched about in this post I probably enjoyed. Keep up the good work, it's still fun as ever.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#143

Post by De-M-oN » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:07 pm

Make it do the current amount of damage on backstabs only.
Make it deal current damage only on your first attack. So the initial attack you do that makes you unstealth will deal the current high damage while subsequent attacks are much weaker. If you are already unstealthed either manually or via enemy damage, your first-attack bonus is gone. (Rewards skill/counterplay)
Both options I could live with :)
Changing it back to before not though. Because I wouldnt use it then. If the enemy survives it is too risky for me to use it at all, because as a stealth how said I mostly pump lots of money into it (plasma cannon, +1 armor, C4, maybe even a beacon and so on)
I'm reworking the altfire a bit already. I'm gonna try a guided missile on the alt fire. Basically you can control it with your mouse and your few point transfers to the rocket itself.
Sounds cool and is totally possible. My friend Jonath even did make this possible: https://youtu.be/OPYH4BNFhIA?t=5m40s
Like you can see even a 360°rotation possible :) and he made it so that the speed of the missile is controllable and has influence on damage and radius.
LOL it's not op. Just add the purchase cooldown back for 60 to 90 seconds.
Then again are mech rushs somewhat easier again.
I'm also surprised that the PC is now apparently always available and has no building dependency like for example the RC. Its surprising, but I personally dont complain about it in a victim role, where you are happy about every last method you can try to use to defend :D

But I still am a bit bored about the heavy mechs that they're such a cannonfodder for infantry.. Is there really no other solution than this? You feel like in a toy if 2 infantry soldiers can be devasting for a HEAVY mech.. on the other hand you're much better off if a technician is supporting it. But hell its a problem. its a team game on one hand, but you can only communicate so bad^^ Thats why I love it if my friend is online and can have him in teamspeak and communicate with him with voice and with MY german language ^^
That also makes it imo more difficult to balance stuff - the side if you're alone - vs the side if you play as a team especially in teamspeak.

And balance in general is difficult to make not your weapons feel like pea shooters on the other hand which suffered aow in the past too. But its now ok again.
Descent 2 for some reason got it very good. Your weapons feel like badass op weapons and are still balanced against enemies.
Descent 3 though messed it up badly. Weapons feel like complete shit and if weapons make you feel like that you have just stomach ticklers then the combat is boring xD This is where balance gets hard. At the moment I would say the most infantry weapons work in aow now. But the heavy mechs are a frustration at infantry at the alone side.
The juggernaut is even worse. I wonder that there are people who use it. I can kill mechs with titan too, so whats the purpose of the juggernaut? its bad at buildings, its terrible at infantry, its just good on mechs, while the titan is as well. But costs soooo much money x.x
even the mininuke does no damage on buildings.
You'll never see me in a game buying a juggernaut xd

If the Laser Chaingunner is still that slow at moving speed, and same damage for laser chaingun as ever been, then I would say that the laser chaingun is too weak, especially with its price and compared to other classes like chem, flame, missile and so on.

The Sniper Rifle Class should have the possibility to do headshots and/or a RNG Damage chance of a 1-shot kill. 100% always needing 2 shots to kill someone seems unworthy for me to use the sniper.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#144

Post by jdagenet » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:57 pm

Stealth Knife OP
Already going to be addressed in next update. I'm going to reduce the damage greatly, but try to make stronger than its original iteration.
Mastodon OP
I didn't plan on making any adjustments to the Mastodon for the next update, it's very possible that it could need some adjustments in the future though, definitely. The more it's played and the more people learn just different things they can do with it will definitely determine just how strong it really is.
Chem Thrower OP
Already being adjusted for the next update as well.
Plasma Cannon OP
I still don't think it's so strong to where it needs a cool down, in fact a cool down would be my last resort. I'd settle on increasing its price if need be, we'll see though.

All in all, I'm satisfied with the play ability of this update. It has been seeing some action daily (and reaching some high player counts as well). I think for the most part the players are enjoying it as well, now if only they'd come on the forums or the Discord to voice their opinions rather than flood me with problems when I step foot into the server lol
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#145

Post by Catastrophe » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:29 pm

jdagenet wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:57 pm
Mastodon OP
I didn't plan on making any adjustments to the Mastodon for the next update, it's very possible that it could need some adjustments in the future though, definitely. The more it's played and the more people learn just different things they can do with it will definitely determine just how strong it really is.
You seriously should consider it. Medium mechs + Madcats are dead content currently because a Mastodon can really easily shit on them by just running up and spamming mainfire. Super annoying for heavies as well since you are fast and can cheese really hard by peeking corners and hiding. Perhaps another compromise could be that medium/heavy mechs deal increased damage against Mastodons?
All in all, I'm satisfied with the play ability of this update. It has been seeing some action daily (and reaching some high player counts as well). I think for the most part the players are enjoying it as well, now if only they'd come on the forums or the Discord to voice their opinions rather than flood me with problems when I step foot into the server lol
Agreed. Aside from the plasma cannon, the stuff I listed seems to be the general opinion for the "vets" in the server - they pretty much think its good once those issues are dealt with.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#146

Post by Combinebobnt » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:20 am

jason good work lets get aow to actual rts potential. offense is making a comeback.

knife - backstabs sounds much better. jason why do you make the most extreme changes possible...

new mechs - I actually almost never play the new mechs so i have no idea how good they are. sounds like I should start if mastodon is that good

chem thrower - literal infantry hose. i don't play infantry so let someone w/ more experience handle that. gl. so many dangerous things in aow2 can kill like instantly

mechs vs humans. bazooka troopers kind of sucked in C&C but here even like 2 can shut down an offense without flyswatting accompaniment. aow2 doesnt have a unit structure like the carefully thought out c&c so u basically need teamwork and infantry to push thru. teamwork is the ultimate op in aow2, there's so much u can get done with a few people working together. very hard to pull that off in pub though.

lol demon about the sniper and jugg and stuff. those are 2 of the most powerful things in the game, they are fine.


ugh writing these kind of bad posts is annoying, i want to play the game and not forums. jason I just gotta trust u to do the right thing, no pokemon gvh level updates and u should be good

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#147

Post by Combinebobnt » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:09 am

my map tier list as far as actually getting a game to end and not just 50 min tdm:
a lot of these (even the playable maps) get locked up in mid endlessly until sd at 45 min. rts games I know rarely have that problem unless its a REALLY good game or they are noobs. this looks like another problem on aow's end, idk the immediate solution, let's just keep working at that slowly w/ more offense!!! btw huge open base with obby coverage = bad

01 - good - this is probably the objectively best map
02 - good - gets locked in mid if no early rush or good late push
03 - good - hard to kill base tho without early rush or good stealths
07 - good - can get too defensive though, needs more sidepath or something. not really that much better than 08 tbh
11 - good - too defensive though
12 - good - can get very defensive
15 - good - very good offensive map
17 - good - mm yea baby. too defensive for srs tho needs more attack opportunity and less obby coverage
18 - good - wish attacking the base head on wasn't awful with mechs though + less open base with less obby coverage.

04 - bad - (see picture). they should have just cut and paste some renegade maps
05 - bad - friggin huge, no interesting way to attack base. large obby coverage. bless instant juggernaut tho ended that game YEA hahaha
06 - bad - could be good with more than 1 way in base. screw that 1 game
08 - bad - way too defensive. if base was more attackable and the map wasn't a chokepoint stalemate it could actually be enjoyable for anything that isn't pointless tdm!
09 - idk - i think blue team has an advantage here based off the games I've seen. red team base is more open to attack. could probably be fixed
10 - bad - see 08. map probably has other problems. I've only played on red team; attacking blue was atrocious with that massive obby coverage. wheres wf when u need it...
13 - shit
14 - bad - too big
16 - bad - no wf, mazey. all the base entrances are essentially in the same place except the side one, gj
19 - bad, too open and boring with awful sidepath. locks up stalemate in mid every time

Old maps that could be prob saved with little effort (60 minutes in db2 someone save these poor maps)
old 16 'AOW '- AOW the map. was actually fun to play in mid. bases are just too huge and open though, get the sector lyposuction. the 1 sidepath is awful.
old 22 'renegade 2069' - 08's alter alter ego like 10's alter ego. if there were sidepaths and more ways to attack, the map wasn't actually that awful. I see another wf corpse too..
old 23 'happy fragging' - no sidepaths. rangle made something decent out of it
old 25 'reactor' - bases were just way too big with obby coverage. with lyposuction it could actually be decent.
old 27 'mining camp' - i liked this map idk why it dies while shit like 13 stays in lol. if it had more sidepaths it could easily be one of the best infantry only maps.
old 28 'all out war REMAKED' - yo the dumb ass gates. if someone just made the gates a solid wall (+ sidepath increase?) this map is actually decent.
old 30 'goats hunting ground' - idk a lot of ppl didn't like this map but it was actually playable. the mid is plain and both the bases and mid are too big but besides that you could actually win games on this esp now with the engineer nerf. there were p good sidepaths going on too esp for stealth

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#148

Post by De-M-oN » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:26 pm

Already going to be addressed in next update. I'm going to reduce the damage greatly, but try to make stronger than its original iteration.
So it doesnt kill anymore again? What about the suggestions by him? I did like the suggestion of just the first try being strong.
But the knife is such a fun factor, I would be sad if it needs 2 hits again which sucked already on the old one :(
09 - idk - i think blue team has an advantage here based off the games I've seen. red team base is more open to attack. could probably be fixed
I always prefer the red base ;)
Dont Remove 04 Glacier. Its a very good map. If it has problems, try to fix them, but pls dont remove :(

With the Guided function idea of the Missile Launcher: I fear it being a harvester murderer and base spammer. Maybe guided not so good idea due to this?
lol demon about the sniper and jugg and stuff. those are 2 of the most powerful things in the game, they are fine.
If they're so powerful, why I never use it then? XD Either I handle them wrong or they're not as good as you describe. How said - imo the titan is a much better mech than a juggernaut :S

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#149

Post by Combinebobnt » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:09 pm

knife backstabs ! !!

some random dude just started working on 04, looks like your (jason's too) prayers were answered. a lot of those above maps I posted could be saved

yea handle them wrong. Juggs by themselves can win games. I'm too scared to use titan because it has 4k hp, tissue paper at heavy mech level. It's ok though, I found out about the true power of the new mechs recently... jason get to work

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#150

Post by De-M-oN » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:15 pm

A titan has 5k hp though.
For what purpose you recommend me to use the juggernaut then?

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#151

Post by Combinebobnt » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:37 am

yea jason told me titan was a typo thank goodness. jugg IS the mini nuke. they are inseparable. without a nuke you are better off going back to the base to recharge. I know how to end games with jugg on certain maps (the good ones). The lancer and mastodon are really powerful now though, I'd be careful lol. I didn't get a chance to show their power in game today.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#152

Post by Combinebobnt » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:13 am

A mapper emerged from the shadows who wouldnt mind working on the maps. I don't want to touch aow lol way too much to deal with. I've done for the first time some actual thinking about how the current maps can be salvaged with simple improvements graphically, mostly so that games don't get DEADLOCKED until sudden death (they would never end without sd). This mostly means making it easier to attack the base in the first place with sidepaths and a more defensible main attack path. It's p serious if you can lock down mid the entire game and dominate the enemy team but you are powerless to blow up their base. Other rts games simply don't have that problem. + most of the maps are asymmetrical, ugh

I'm open to any thoughts because I kind of just brainstorm these up
Spoiler: quick ideas I came up with (Open)
04 (already worked on) - something already done, need to test. most of it was cover for the attackers and a new sidepath.
Image
08 (already worked on) - I think 08 has some big problems with attacking but hopefully some already done edits should help (need to test)
the current sidepaths are garbage for attacking because util can spam 10 turrets and sandbags. attacking from the front is nearly impossible even if you are completely obliterating the enemy team. there is also awful asymmetry. thankfully there is something already done to test
Image
03 - this map is already good, just needs some nudge for taking out the base midgame. the front entrance is deadly for attackers
Image
06 - only 1 way in base awful. + 1 team has an advantage. other team can just have their obby sniped
Image
07 Image
11 - the guy said maybe there could even be a major 2nd path added, no idea about that
Image
12 - idk what to do frankly but this map always relys on sd. even when the obby goes down its like it doesnt matter
17 Image
18 Image

these maps are easily savable and i already like them besides sd locking
old16 Image
old27 Image

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#153

Post by jdagenet » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 pm

Went ahead and pushed out a small patch that fixes a few of the glaring issues at the moment like the Chemical Sprayer, Stealth Knife, Shotgunner, Mastodon Rockets, and the Repair Pad not giving ammo at full HP for mechs. I'll release a more fine tuned update sometime that'll fix some problems more in depth.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r042318 Released

#154

Post by Combinebobnt » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:05 pm

jason i got somethin for that fine tune update, dps chart of 04/22/18 cuz i like making them and know whats the most op (to abuse? :o). you need big charts like these like repoman's zdoomwars ones for a mod of this caliber. They were all done IN GAME and not some theoretical mr wikipedia decorate scientist crap, I just snatched and modified some dps code so I didn't have to make my own (thank dtd). It was tested on an unarmored stock player using basically gunman, and a titan, so no armor is considered for infantry. To find out how fast you can kill a certain mech just divide its hp by dps essentially.
Spoiler: DPS (Open)
Image
  • you may have nerfed already but shotgunner outclasses smg even at range lol
  • machinegun and gatling overwhelms smg at everything
  • nailgun altfire seems worthless does anybody use it successfully? it's so bouncy
  • turns out flamer is extremely powerful who knew, altho u did nerf chem u said. you already know something is up with those classes and I posted ideas in discord at least. famous scholar "why even use other classes"
  • idk how armor affects the shock rifle for sure
  • some weapons have poor dps but high hit damage. keep that in mind as those are good for hit n run
  • i didn't know rifle nade was basically grenade copypaste, i should use it even more. Good thing ssg got its removed
  • art alt does like 500 per shot i always misquote it as 700 oops
  • flamethrower and ex-chem are menacing to both infantry and mech jesus
  • raven def needs some attention
  • look at lancer dps and masto dps rofl new mech power
  • lancer full volley is more dps than cannon+chem, didn't record. lancer should get attention anyway i know
  • madcat volley may be more than no-shock volley but its extremely difficult most of the time to land both shock balls. I still avoid shock balls
  • titan flamer my god. didnt record but cannon direct hit does like 400 dmg per shot
  • proof juggernaut is baller
ok now jason gl fix mod, dont lost lives

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r042318 Released

#155

Post by De-M-oN » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:46 pm

Another suggestion I would've for the stealth knife.
Make it an expensive research center addon similar like the repair gun upgrade, so that a stealth trooper has the weak(er) knife, but can upgrade it for for example 800$ or whatever you find balanced to the knife of 11.april version.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

#156

Post by jdagenet » Sun May 06, 2018 5:59 am

Rolled out another update that'll hopefully solve some major DPS problems with some of the infantry weapons along with some buffs to the Karasawa and Chronobow. Right now a big problem is cheaper classes out performing more expensive classes (which isn't how it should be). Most of the typical explosion weapons are untouched, but the MG's and chem/flame weapons have a much more balanced DPS now.
Also have a dedicated mapper on board that learned Doombuilder under 48 hours. He's been responsible for the changes being made to the maps right now. I haven't received much feedback on the maps, but we discussed pretty in depth about the current maps and the problems with them and I think he's doing a pretty good job so far integrating new things to the maps that'll make them play much much better.
Spoiler: (Open)

Code: Select all

================================================================================
===== Changelog: May 5th, 2018
================================================================================
~	Jetpack fuel wasn't refilling in spawn room.
~	Timecop buffs don't give sparkle effects on the Juggernaut.
-	Rebalanced DPS' on problem infantry weapons.
-	Base repairing code revised.
-	Chronobow buff.
-	Karasawa max ammo increased to 15.
Anyway, feedback is welcome here or in the Discord. Enjoy.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

#157

Post by De-M-oN » Wed May 09, 2018 9:06 pm

Also have a dedicated mapper on board that learned Doombuilder under 48 hours. He's been responsible for the changes being made to the maps right now
Please fix blue spawnpoint of Glacier.
There is a spawnpoint where you spawn into the wall of the refinery. Very annoying like the 3-hit nerfknife :P

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

#158

Post by madcat » Sat May 12, 2018 4:58 pm

I have made a mech-like monster - If AOW2 ever needs a new mech, feel free to use it - https://www.dropbox.com/s/r0unq55xz9t30 ... .wad?raw=1

Image

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

#159

Post by Purple Luck » Tue May 15, 2018 1:11 am

madcat wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 4:58 pm
I have made a mech-like monster - If AOW2 ever needs a new mech, feel free to use it - https://www.dropbox.com/s/r0unq55xz9t30 ... .wad?raw=1

Image
I want to see this in action.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

#160

Post by Purple Luck » Tue May 15, 2018 1:18 am

Were the changes in the map design really necessary? Most, if not all, were fine with the maps. The designs itself are nice, it just wasn't needed.

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