All Out War 2.2 - r050518 Released

Maps, modifications, add-ons, projects, and other releases for Zandronum. Also includes announcers.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#81

Post by Galactus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:33 pm

Mobius wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:55 pm
Good. Maybe players should stop feeding the same 6 people with 50+ frags every game. There's a reason why high ranking players who happen to also be really good players dominate so much.
Assuming this isn't about the ticket system in sudden death I abhorrently disagree. All out war still has somewhat of a strategic point to it where you try to destroy the enemy buildings instead of just farming kills. If you add a ticket system outside of suddent death, the risk and the effort would be way too great to even try and blow up a building. Everyone would just brainlessy frag until the round is over. Hell it'd just make aow a tdm mod on bigger maps.
Last edited by Galactus on Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#82

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Yep, ticket system outside of sudden death turns it into All out Team Deathmatch. On grind maps where it ends based on who makes more mistakes, it was basically TDM. I noticed you don't gain EXP as quickly as you did before when healing mechs. Perhaps you could change the rate between the previous version and the current rate. I suggest this because the Technician is more of a sitting duck now due to the SMG nerf. Either that or give the Tech another weapon instead of the SMG (SG maybe?).

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#83

Post by Mobius » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Galactus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:33 pm
Mobius wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:55 pm
Good. Maybe players should stop feeding the same 6 people with 50+ frags every game. There's a reason why high ranking players who happen to also be really good players dominate so much.
Assuming this isn't about the ticket system in sudden detah I abhorrently disagree. All out war still has somewhat of a strategic point to it where you try to destroy the enemy buildings instead of just farming kills. If you add a ticket system outside of suddent death, the risk and the effort would be way too great to even try and blow up a building. Everyone would just brainlessy frag until the round is over. Hell it'd just make aow a tdm mod on bigger maps.
What strategy was that? Stall the game for 40 minutes and feed Immortal, Jason, Kaminsky, myself, Avernus, and Ricolo?

This is your AOW strategy

Typical AOW TDM no tickets
Image
No coordination needed. Immortal does what he does best. I just torch players. I don't know what Kaminsky does but it works (he's a pretty good player too).

Here's AOW when players loses one building and in spite resort to their epic strategy
Image

It's literally ragequit simulator.

Image

Look at these? The same 10 people who can frag heavy do and people feed them for an hour. That's not strategy. All Out War? More like League of Legends. You have 10 champions and a bunch of NPC (players) who can barely do anything useful. You get immortal or Jason to farm mid until he gets enough gold (exp) to purchase upgrades (rank up) to fight other champions. That's terrible. Most players cannot get above 5 frags in 50 minutes. Maybe it's a good thing there's a penalty for being complete shit for 8 years (since most of those guys have been play AOW that long).

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#84

Post by Galactus » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:14 pm

You can't just edit a mod around the skill level of certain people, most people suck dick at aow and so be it. You can't do anything about that aside from not stacking or somewhat balancing the teams. There's still a little bit of strategy left in aow like mech rushes, stealthing and utiling. Just making this mod another tdm simulator would completely remove those somewhat unique aspects of the mod. I know these aspects maybe don't come to frution very often, but it's still better than them just being completely removed.
Personally for me whenever I play aow I decide beforehand what role I'm going to take before a match starts, will I frag, will I stealth or will I util. Making it basically sudden death from the start would ruin those things for me, seeing how I would just go for fragging anyway.
On a side note, if you'd include tickets throughout the normal game wouldn't that just benefit the heavy fraggers instead of giving a less fraggier team more of a chance? Hell some days ago you had beef with immortal where you kept bringing up the argument that you beat him in aow, despite him having so many frags. If the new ticket system was implemented that might've turned out differently.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#85

Post by jdagenet » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:17 pm

After a few games today without tickets enabled before SD, I can say I had a pretty good time (minus when someone call voted to change map, sore losers). I'll probably disregard the tickets thing for now and look at it again at a later date. I'd like to fix some other issues that seem to be on the rise such as mechs camping their repair pads and people not destroying buildings as often as I'd like.
Catastrophe made a good point regarding the repairing of buildings: get three or four people on one and it just sky rockets back to 100. I saw an Obelisk go from 19% to 100% in nearly a minute so I think what I might be do is take a look at the repairing speeds. I'll need to figure out a way to spread the repair amount among everyone who is repairing so the buildings just doesn't go instantly back to 100%. Anyone else have something to add in this regard?
As for the mechs camping on their repair pads: one suggestion I got was to periodically charge players to use the repair pad. I've done very little testing on this feature, but I'm willing to put it in because it would help get mechs out of their base and out into the field destroying the team. Thoughts?

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#86

Post by Mobius » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:03 pm

Galactus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:14 pm
You can't just edit a mod around the skill level of certain people, most people suck dick at aow and so be it. You can't do anything about that aside from not stacking or somewhat balancing the teams.
Stacking teams happens because the majority of the players don't do anything on their own. They suddenly played a lot differently (and better) when tickets were around cause they were forced to be extremely proactive. That's a plus.
Galactus wrote:There's still a little bit of strategy left in aow like mech rushes, stealthing and utiling. Just making this mod another tdm simulator would completely remove those somewhat unique aspects of the mod. I know these aspects maybe don't come to frution very often, but it's still better than them just being completely removed.
I blame the building healing factor and weak C4 (both timed and remote). Mech rush is a meme that stopped once A3 couldn't do 911 anymore (since Orcas got their prices increased to prevent the Dranzer strat). The new mech rush now is mech base defense on top a healing pad all game (jug nuke defense). AOW strat is just feeding Gunman 50 minutes until TICKETS becomes a thing in the last 10 minutes. That's not playing to any objective. That's literally just playing TDM practice. You know what that reminds me of? That reminds me Priv CTF where people are waiting to pick players for 30 minutes fragging each other. AOW is a sandbox game at this point. It's slow and has no real goal. The allusion of any objective is lost when you have an obelisk go from 20 percent to 100 in less than 20 seconds (imagine a war factory). Any time some meta is introduced that speeds up the game the players bitch because they are bad: team stack, early C4 rush, 9/11 (ORCA or Tortoise to Obelisk), chainsaw control panel, C4 in general, and now tickets. What happens? You get everyone just running around all game racking up kills and pretending to be useful to some insignificant degree. Literally 50 minutes of nothing happening. What kind of shit is that?
wrote:Personally for me whenever I play aow I decide beforehand what role I'm going to take before a match starts, will I frag, will I stealth or will I util. Making it basically sudden death from the start would ruin those things for me, seeing how I would just go for fragging anyway.
I think maybe making the other classes much more useful probably would help those classes on ticket based games. Everything is SLOW in AOW from running speed to killing a mech.
Galactus wrote:On a side note, if you'd include tickets throughout the normal game wouldn't that just benefit the heavy fraggers instead of giving a less fraggier team more of a chance? Hell some days ago you had beef with immortal where you kept bringing up the argument that you beat him in aow, despite him having so many frags. If the new ticket system was implemented that might've turned out differently.
The reversed happened when I played. Everyone who did nothing actually did SOMETHING useful and a game finished much sooner than 20 minutes with building destruction.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#87

Post by AlexMax » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:58 pm

How about taking a page out of Tribes' book?
  • Introduce a separate objective that allows you to actually win the game. For example, a building in the middle of the map where bringing Tiberium to it nets your team points, and reaching a point limit (or having the most points when time runes out) wins the game immediately.
  • Make all of the buildings easier to destroy, but allow them to be repaired, even from 0%.
The way things worked out in Tribes, you either played the objective or kept their base down, and even with the entire base destroyed, the enemy team always worked on trying to get the base online again, instead of just ragequitting.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#88

Post by Combinebobnt » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am

damn if only aow2 started out as a good mod like gvh instead of this scramble... good luck jason

Anything that turns the wad from its 5 minute tdm with a 45 minute warmup rn to more focused on an objective is a good change for me. rarely a building dies before that unless the team actually knows how to coordinate an attack or the teams are stacked or whatever. sudden death is a bandaid designed to prevent games from lasting literally forever; now that it is the normal way for a game to end only shows there is something seriously wrong with the mechanics of a normal game. I don't really care about getting 200 frags in the game because it doesn't accomplish anything. SD is the only place frags matter and you can get xp from like everything

tickets: ok

nerfing cloud of engineers repairing: damn cata had the answer that was infront of my face the whole time. diminishing repair rates is an obvious as hell solution. Right now someone who attacks buildings head on can barely eclipse the rate of repair of one tech. 3 attackers is about the size of your average mech rush or whatever. The game should force you to fight back which isn't that hard seeing how defensive this mod is but rn u can just throw some techs around (even worse late game, you spawn with a repair gun jesus) and without infantryfiltration the attackers are boned. Right now repairing is linear which means all out defence 2. Here's a formula to start with math clan: harmonic repair: 1 tech : 1 x rate, 3 techs: (1+1/2+1/3) x rate etc have fun coding it. don't forget repair turrets (fix ai?)

damn aow2 has all these problems yet C&C renegade seems to be p chill brah in comparison... maybe u should just copy everything from that better than voltlock could jason.

gunman: yes jason this is about the gunman's gun because guess what the most important part of being gunman is wow his gun; the man's gun. sorry guys he's in a3, have to make it clear every time. i agree with a nerf but perhaps this one was too drastic... I wasn't ready... Setting it only to burst probably raped the dps way too much but the old one was strong as hell. Find middle ground? C&C had an automatic fire gunman and it's just fine... get to work good boy

fix that weapon spawn bug I get like the old gunman where my gun doesn't shoot anything until i switch.
being able to see stealths oops
opengl flamethrower dynamic lights hang. use code? fix?
all out defence 2?

play the objective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks jason don't froget gvh apocolips is next

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#89

Post by Razgriz » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:05 am

It's funny because Bob was one of the first to mention the repair gun being too strong, and before it was treated as an "oh well situation". Now it's become clear that the next steps forward are to make offensive moves more appealing, and you can only do that by diminishing the ability to defend for 45 minutes. Though partially poor map designs also don't help this, as some maps are mirrored in ways to benefit one team more than the other, whether it's one tiberium field being closer than another, or one being placed in an open easy to snipe spot compared to another, or just general geometry that enables one team to do something that another team cannot (aow7, can snipe enemy tiberium easier from one side, aow04, a tortoise can grenade spam red ob easy from the upper connecting path, aow 06, red has a better tiberium field, etc). As a result teams are going to become defensive sooner since they can't battle against the other team due to map geometry. We'll see what happens in the next patches, but I do like the tickets idea, but maybe 300 will be a good number once all the necessary changes take place.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#90

Post by Espio » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:31 pm

The tickets idea still can't work well from trolls. Even if you disallowed suicide via kill, one can still run into a Tiberium field and intentionally waste your team's tickets. Sure can kick the guy, but never know if there's more than one lurking about and the previous guy can return after 10 mins, if that's still the temp ban from votekick.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#91

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:08 pm

Razgriz wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:05 am
It's funny because Bob was one of the first to mention the repair gun being too strong, and before it was treated as an "oh well situation". Now it's become clear that the next steps forward are to make offensive moves more appealing, and you can only do that by diminishing the ability to defend for 45 minutes. Though partially poor map designs also don't help this, as some maps are mirrored in ways to benefit one team more than the other, whether it's one tiberium field being closer than another, or one being placed in an open easy to snipe spot compared to another, or just general geometry that enables one team to do something that another team cannot (aow7, can snipe enemy tiberium easier from one side, aow04, a tortoise can grenade spam red ob easy from the upper connecting path, aow 06, red has a better tiberium field, etc). As a result teams are going to become defensive sooner since they can't battle against the other team due to map geometry. We'll see what happens in the next patches, but I do like the tickets idea, but maybe 300 will be a good number once all the necessary changes take place.
The only reason why maps were asymmetrical in C&C is because each team had different mechs, classes, etc. But in AOW the only difference between both teams is the color. Perhaps a good idea would be to properly mirror some of the offending maps because there is no good reason why one team has an advantage at start compared to the other just because they picked the right color (racist mod???).
Bob wrote: being able to see stealths oops
You can only see your own teammates who are stealth.
raped the dps way too much but the old one was strong as hell. Find middle ground? C&C had an automatic fire gunman and it's just fine... get to work good boy
A good thing to try would be to bring back full-auto but have the bullets do a factor of 4, rather than the current of 6.

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#92

Post by jdagenet » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:14 pm

If I ever do find a way to implement the tickets idea in a way that works I can always code in a way to disregard the ticket decrement if a player kills himself or if the killer isn’t a player (Grenade, Tiberium Crystal, etc). Of course this still has the potential of being abused to some degree.

Most of what Bob said is true. The only problem I have with the SMG nerf currently is Tiberium Harvester’s. They really have no means of defending themselves against stronger classes. Other than that, I think the burst fire is fine.
Stealth should be fixed now (except for that Zandronum bug). There was a strange Software-only issue where you could faintly see cloaked Stealths, but I fixed that in the latest version unless it somehow resurfaced.

Some changes are being made to help cut down on how defensive teams can be.

One is the Stealth Knife. The Knife will be able to quietly remove Utility Guy defenses and geometry such as Sandbags, Razorwire, Turrets, etc. This should make infiltrating bases a lot more easier on Stealths. I’m also increasing the damage of the Timed C4, so that a team of Stealths is a lot more devastating if they get, say, eight C4 off.

I’m also currently implementing a system that charges mechs to use the Repair Pad. This is to cut down on them camping in their base and shooting off rockets and nukes from the pad brainlessly (will also put more emphasis on Utility Guy mech support).

Last but not least, I’m also porting over a few more maps from 2.1: Mining Site, Hell’s March, and Disk Defrag.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#93

Post by Galactus » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:45 pm

Where the handgun at tho?????

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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#94

Post by Hammerfest- » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:38 pm

Hello,

Maybe base repair bay/service depot repair times based on half of mechs worth and HP, and charge a number of credits every 1HP? So if a mech is worth say 1000 with 400 HP the price to repair a mech would be 500. Since you cant repair a 0 HP mech you'd have to assume 500 ÷ 400 = 1.25 credits per 1 HP. So even if the mech is at exactly 1 HP the repair charges to get 399 HP back in the repair bay would be ~498-499 credits.

((Mechs value ÷2) ÷ Mechs Max HP) × HP lost = Cost of Repairs

Either that or charge mechs based on tier and how powerful it is and have a fixed number of credits depending on the mech.

I also suggest varying the rate at which a mech basically gets its ammo resupplied. Not sure how people would feel about it though.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#95

Post by Hammerfest- » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:50 pm

My other suggestion was concerning game length, but because this suggestion is a big change and requires changing a lot of maps I don't think it'll happen anytime soon.

Reintroduce Power Plants into the game.

Functions as a power source for all buildings. Can be revived but it takes a long time to revive. It can't be multi engineered for reduced time and it needs to be at 100% for it to function.

Cons when destroyed
- Buyable Infantry and Mechs cost ×1.5 the original value.

An example - A flamethrower costs say 150 it would cost 225.

- Defensive structure shuts down. Its not destroyed but it doesnt function OR it it reduces rate of fire and attack power.

Why should it be considered? It puts one team at a disadvantage and they'll be on the defensive while it entices the other team to clean up and finish the game.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#96

Post by Espio » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:11 pm

I yanked out aow99 that I was doing for my little patch thing and updated it for the new spawn room system with a small revamp.

https://imgur.com/a/HpneU

what got revamped was Red's Refinery is mirrored from the original r1152 version. The guard towers got rotated to face the base entrance and Red's Obelisk got moved closer to the wall, again mirroring Blue's Obelisk as well. Blue needed it's Research to face the entrance, like how Red's does.

This was a popular pick back in the 2011 days, you won't get an exact answer as to why. It just did, tide comes in tide goes out you can't explain that.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/v799mpij ... /aow99.wad << (2018 update) This is an old version, the updated and finished copy is on TSPG's site. Disregard to avoid auth problems plox.

This needs skulltag_content-3.0 however, but you're porting Hell's March over which 99's buildings use the same textures. Hoping I didn't leave in any blanks :igor:
Last edited by Espio on Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#97

Post by Mobius » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Espio wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:11 pm

https://www.mediafire.com/file/39m2le4q ... /aow99.wad

This needs skulltag_content-3.0 however, but you're porting Hell's March over which 99's buildings use the same textures. Hoping I didn't leave in any blanks :igor:
Just import the textures into the wad.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#98

Post by Espio » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:05 pm

Mobius wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Just import the textures into the wad.
Got lazy having to yank out the textures, but fine. I'll edit post tomorrow with an updated link.

Edited link post.
Re-edited again

Rotated the towers back to where they were but still facing the entrances, forgot floor/ceiling textures work funny in Doom. Nope, just learned some UDMF magic. I redid blue's RC so now it's properly mirrored and fixed up all the textures so skulltag content isn't necessary anymore.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#99

Post by jdagenet » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:55 am

I've recently gotten wind of a couple of DC guys patching 2.1 because some (if not all) of the changes I've made/imported are apparently bad. I've asked Boozer as well as Acer why they insist on avoiding my version and I never get a straight answer from either one of them. The one I've gotten the most however has been about the removal of the Pistol and just recently the nerf of the Sub-Machine Gun, both valid and needed changes that I will gladly support.

I was told that I come off unapproachable hence making people not like my version, though here we are talking in a thread that I made for the sole purpose of letting people know that I'm taking suggestions on what they want to see added/fixed in the mod. I even offer people to partake in the development process if they'd like to design a map or help in other ways, etc. The players who have made suggestions and have given me feedback know that I'm very reasonable when it comes to stuff like that. Nearly every idea that has been submitted to me from A3 has been considered and implemented into the mod, I've also gotten some help and ideas from a couple of other players in the server, but other than that, the only thing from the players that are claiming my version is the worst around is regarding the Pistol removal.

At the end of the day, I think we all know why the outlash is so vague when asked their reasoning on the matter: balance.
I've made (and still working on) changes to AOW that no one has ever dared to make before in the past: increasing the prices of the mechs, removing the Timed C4 delay, balancing the Sub-Machine Gun, fixing game-breaking bugs and coding errors, rebalancing useless classes, implementing anti-camp mechanics for mechs, and restructuring the repair system. These are aspects of the game that have been kept unchanged for years, and have otherwise been known as "the norm". When you go change some things like this, people will not like the changes because they simply don't like change and don't want to get better.

I personally don't want to see the mod split for dumb and childish reasons, especially if the alternative is an inferior version of the mod, but I will also not allow the broken points of 2.1 to shine through to 2.2, regardless of how many people claim the change is terrible. There's a forum and a Discord for players to use if they wish to get in contact with me if they have something to say or suggest.
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Re: All Out War 2.2 - RC2

#100

Post by Galactus » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:39 pm

Actually your version is fine aside from the pistol removal which I don't know the reasoning behind and the godawful font you chose. Though I think this was the same font that was used in the aow omega version (or whatever it's called). The sub-machine is just currently in it's experimental state which is already a good thing seeing how someone finally decided to nerf the overpowered thing. Though I would say the regular shotgun is now slowly becoming a somewhat overpowered class. It basically outshines the ssg which is seen by many as too strong for it's price and on top of that the shotgun is free.
To be fair I've always wondered what the point was of free classes. Iirc you start out with enough money to buy a $200 weapon, so why not just completely remove the concept of free classes altogether.

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