Complex Master Of Puppets

[Daedalus]

After watching about an hour or two of this, I gotta say in it's current state it is far worse than original MoP, which I kinda expected.

Player controlled monsters have zero cooldown (or limited-slow-regen ammo, similar to Internal Conflict's monsters which would actually work better in this case) on their attacks, so they are able to freely spam their strongest attacks on demand. There was a map where a player controlled the rarest Mancubi spawn, which is dangerous enough on it's own and two other players controlling Bruiser Demons at a choke point spamming comets endlessly at a large group of 6+ marines and they could absolutely not pass it, after about 10 minutes the player controlling the Manc got bored, moved out of the way and one player eventually got in only to die shortly afterwards and break the map in the process.

Another thing I noticed, player controlled Cyberdemons keep Marine movement speed, that is terribly game-breaking and should be addressed. Especially seen as they can spam without a drawback.

Also, you really have to do something with the marine teamkilling, Puppeteers being able to kill other monsters and or exit the map (though I'm sure Korshun said there was a version where Puppet players couldn't exit), otherwise this addon is pretty much troll-bait as was seen in that server, quite a few players were doing all three.

There is something wrong with the fullscreen HUD, I could not see it all, the visor seems to work but there were a few players complaining about messed up ammo counters when the BFG was selected.

There is also something up with the same species of monsters, I saw Archons and Bruiser Demons infighting, which should not be happening (no, they weren't player controlled monsters).

I'm sure I forgot a few other issues, but hopefully you can pick them out.

Despite all of these problems though, people still seemed to have fun so that's a plus.

EDIT: Oh, there was an issue with player controlled Viles, me and a couple of other players saw a Marine kill a Puppet as a Vile, while the Vile was in mid-attack, the attack continued regardless and killed the player seconds after it died. Should probably address that as soon as you can too.

[fr blood]

I like how people fail to understand the balance equation of mop from both sides now.

Keep in mind that while you do have a staggeringly larger amount of lives to deal with the map now, this is greatly offset by the fact that the monster side now has an actual mastermind behind it and thus is not a mindless horde of pushovers awkwardly trying to gut you, but a semblance of a somewhat well coordinated army with several individual monsters popping out every so often that are perfectly capable of soloing players.

Well, in theory, at least. If puppeteers are not idiots, that is.

Yea that true, by that there is a lot of stuff that need to be redone, a lot of work.

wat

It's not 90 lives for each player - it's 90 lives as a shared pool between players.

The life scaling is a good thing - it means that puppet masters can actually lose easy maps, and that they don't win every hard map.

puppet masters would literally win every round on remotely difficult maps, and win every round where there's only 4-6 players.

Hell, on hard maps puppet masters would win by AFKing

I'm saying it again, marine life amount need a nerf, I suppose that it works with the amount of monster, but there shall be a limit because when I see some maps with 500 lifes, excuse me but there is no more challenge for anyone.

[Yellowtail]

I'm saying it again, marine life amount need a nerf, I suppose that it works with the amount of monster, but there shall be a limit because when I see some maps with 500 lifes, excuse me but there is no more challenge for anyone.

This actually depends on how heavy it is on the monster count, what types of monsters are available (specifically the intensity of more powerful monsters) and the number of live players. The crazier the levels are and the more players there are, the higher the life count will be.

So if you have 2000 monsters, many of which aren't able to be killed in a single SSG shot and can be pretty threatening, and say 8 players, chances are the life count is going to be pretty high. Otherwise the game's going to be way too hard, especially since the game ends once someone brings the life pool to a negative number.

[Monsterovich]

After watching about an hour or two of this, I gotta say in it's current state it is far worse than original MoP

This isn't true. We've done a lot of hard work, especially on fixing bugs which have never been resolved in original mop. Complex MOP is absolutely playable now.

Player controlled monsters have zero cooldown (or limited-slow-regen ammo, similar to Internal Conflict's monsters which would actually work better in this case) on their attacks, so they are able to freely spam their strongest attacks on demand.

I've already thought about this. Adding ammo to monster attacks is not a five minute thing and it needs a lot of work in decorate stuff.

Also, you really have to do something with the marine teamkilling

Korshun fixed everything except BFG that is still able to kill teammates, because A_BFGSpray is shit.

Another thing I noticed, player controlled Cyberdemons keep Marine movement speed, that is terribly game-breaking and should be addressed. Especially seen as they can spam without a drawback.

Cyberdemons can't walk if they are firing. This is fair.

There is something wrong with the fullscreen HUD, I could not see it all, the visor seems to work but there were a few players complaining about messed up ammo counters when the BFG was selected.

What? Screenshots, please.

EDIT: Oh, there was an issue with player controlled Viles, me and a couple of other players saw a Marine kill a Puppet as a Vile, while the Vile was in mid-attack, the attack continued regardless and killed the player seconds after it died.

Fixed.

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I'm saying it again, marine life amount need a nerf, I suppose that it works with the amount of monster, but there shall be a limit because when I see some maps with 500 lifes, excuse me but there is no more challenge for anyone.

This actually depends on how heavy it is on the monster count, what types of monsters are available (specifically the intensity of more powerful monsters) and the number of live players.

Yes, and it depends on the monster difficulty that mentioned in monsters.acs. (the second value in this array) If you have any ideas about this, you can help us to make the game more balanced. :P

[Yellowtail]

Yes, and it depends on the monster difficulty that mentioned in monsters.acs. (the second value in this array) If you have any ideas about this, you can help us to make the game more balanced. :P

Unfortunately, I know diddly squat about ACS, nor do I have any ideas as to how to make it more balanced. Plus, Complex even by itself isn't exactly my thing, so I wouldn't be able to be of much assistance, if at all.

[Frits]

Played this today and had a lot of fun.
But marine teamdamage is pure evil you know and i'm not talking about the bfg, i've been killed and killed many fellow marines with rockets. No teamdamage please or at least some more resistance to friendly fire.

[Untitled]

Played this today and had a lot of fun.
But marine teamdamage is pure evil you know and i'm not talking about the bfg, i've been killed and killed many fellow marines with rockets. No teamdamage please or at least some more resistance to friendly fire.

The issue is the way it's designed; it MUST have teamdamage on, otherwise puppetmaster and marine couldn't hurt each other!

Of course, the easy solution is damagetypes, and damagetyping everything non-splash, that's easy enough.

Except Rockets.

The problem is, if you give Rockets the damagetype that marines are immune to, you get free rocketjumping, and as I've learned, give a player free rocket jumping, he will find a way to abuse it.

EDIT: Recorded Win Statistics for Alien Vendetta MAP01 to MAP20 (no secret maps)

Maps Currently Finished: 20.

As of right now, wincount:
Puppets: 13
Marines: 6
Random Skips: 1 (counts for the issue of 19 total matches on 20 maps)

EDIT #2: I've started to find that the majority of teamkills are actually accidental - and marine teamkills on average cause more of a detriment to the team than puppets.

EDIT #3: Telefrags count as teamkills.

EDIT #4: Also, ALL of the marine wins were one marine managing to sneak an exit when 50% monsters were dead - we never managed to kill them all.

[Daedalus]

Complex MOP is absolutely playable now.

Yes, because Puppets standing at every chokepoint, tight hallway, teleport destination and spawn room gormlessly holding down fire while hordes of marines run to their deaths hoping that they can pass a wave of unlimited strong attack spam losing many lives or even the round is absolutely playable.

There was a map on AV just yesterday where marines lost near 200 (rofl) lives just outside their spawn room, I am not joking either. It is far from playable.

Player controlled monsters have zero cooldown (or limited-slow-regen ammo, similar to Internal Conflict's monsters which would actually work better in this case) on their attacks, so they are able to freely spam their strongest attacks on demand.

I've already thought about this.

You should because it desperately needs it for reasons stated above.

Korshun fixed everything except BFG that is still able to kill teammates, because A_BFGSpray is shit.

As said by Frits, it is not just the BFG that is killing friendly players. Are there not ways around this? I thought there were.

EDIT: I say this needs fixing because the only way marines can even progress most of the time is by spamming which ends up with a ton of team killing.

Cyberdemons can't walk if they are firing. This is fair.

It'd be even more fair if they had their actual movement speed too.

There is something wrong with the fullscreen HUD, I could not see it all

What? Screenshots, please.

[spoiler]

And the visor, which I can actually see.

[/spoiler]

[Monsterovich]

Released new stable version R8!

The basic changes:

Code: Select all

- Added: respawn monsters when player disconnects (or joins spectators) as puppetmaster
- Fixed bug: remove acs messages when player spectates
- Added nazis
- Fixed visor hud (missing ammo counter)
- Nerfed some monsters: increased countdown for Baron and HK comets and for Fatso attacks
- Added status icons (mop_showicons on clientside, default = true)
- Fixed bug: added protection from changing class without spectating
- Added fragcounter for mops
- Rebuilt status HUD
- Added boss possession liminations (sv_possfrags_bosses, default = 3)
- Fixed bug: reset puppetmaster inventory on death
- Fixed mop ally message
- Added missing DamegeType for modifed revenants
- Removed fire from Cardinal states
- Fixed archvile attacks
and others...

Download
Download (more boom support)

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It'd be even more fair if they had their actual movement speed too.

Cyberdemon speed is 16 * 0.04375 = 0.7 that's different from player speed. Don't forget that AI cyberdemons have rush state with ultra speed, while mops don't.

And the visor, which I can actually see.

I've removed the both, because they are useless and not designed for playing as puppet masters.

[ibm5155]

I'll resume this mod:
-600 lives for all the players.
-large but small corridor where cyberdemon can freely spam all his rockets all the time (all marines got reloading guns but not cyberdemon...)
-Spam bfg10k with a spidermastermind on a specific teleport where the humans will be killed all the time.
-get a single shoot and a marine will almost be killed
-cant jump,crouch and even parkour with rocket jump? (it may be server specific but all of them are set like that bad vanilla style)
-unlimited ammo but not hp? get a single shoot and you got stucked with 1hp for the rest of the game...
-Bfg spam, humans just spam some bfg and voala, you cleaned the area.
-TeamDammage, rocket and bfg spam and gg friendkill

So, most of my play time sucked, they were long, there was all about camping and spam, 0/10 gameplay (and that part is even worse for players since they lose ammo, and some maps you get just NO AMMO)

fix all that iuses and add a timer on it, I don't want to play for one hour on a map where humans cant go down the main chair because there's a granade and gas spam over it...

EDIT:
Also reporting a bug where player 17 and 18 had no body spam, it got unplayable till player 18 got disconnected

[-Jes-]

Just adding a 10-25 tic delay at the end of attacks isn't going to do much against spamming, and in fact will just hamper monsters in any stand up fight. I still recommend a cooldown system much like the overheat from vanilla mop, as it much better supports brief fights while hurting longterm spamming.

As well, most lower tier monsters (that aren't hitscanners like the quadshot and chaingunners) are COMPLETELY USELESS for puppeteers as most most marine weapons tear through them in under a second. See every Imp ever.

[Monsterovich]

Released version 11: this update isn't big, but contains very useful gameplay features:

Changelog:

Code: Select all

- Added new CVAR mop_extralivepoints, now marines can receive more lives for killing puppetmasters
- Added new CVAR mop_livescalingpercentage that changes the amount of marine lives
- Fixed: added missing DamageTypes for BossBrain to ignore damage from puppetmasters
- Fixed: removed THRUSPECIES from Zombie Rocket
- Increased soul difficilty
- Nerfed some monsters

Download
Download (boom support)

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As well, most lower tier monsters (that aren't hitscanners like the quadshot and chaingunners) are COMPLETELY USELESS for puppeteers as most most marine weapons tear through them in under a second. See every Imp ever.

Void imps and harvesters aren't useless. IMO, demon tech zombies are more dangerous than shotgunners, and you forgot about Rocket Zimbas!

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-Spam bfg10k with a spidermastermind on a specific teleport where the humans will be killed all the time.

I know about this problem. I'll do something with that in future.

-large but small corridor where cyberdemon can freely spam all his rockets all the time (all marines got reloading guns but not cyberdemon...)

Shooting tactical rockets or BFG balls from the corner helps in this situation, but the 95% are always trying to rush.

-cant jump,crouch and even parkour with rocket jump?

... to break the original cooperative gameplay.

-TeamDammage, rocket and bfg spam and gg friendkill

ZDoom sucks, unfixable.

[Untitled]

-large but small corridor where cyberdemon can freely spam all his rockets all the time (all marines got reloading guns but not cyberdemon...)

Shooting tactical rockets or BFG balls from the corner helps in this situation, but the 95% are always trying to rush.

Problem is, http://doomwiki.org/wiki/BFG9000 due to how tracers work, the BFG is nigh-useless at long range, and almost completely so if you have to hide.

Also, having matches become a matter of patience is a bad idea no matter what - there's a reason samsarahold (which I design) missions are designed to take at most 30 minutes, preferably far less - players don't like waiting.

-cant jump,crouch and even parkour with rocket jump?

... to break the original cooperative gameplay.

Two things.
1. crouch and jump is usually set by server, not by mod.
2. they would almost certainly be used for sequence breaking.
Hate to break it to you, but Monsterovich is right.

-TeamDammage, rocket and bfg spam and gg friendkill

ZDoom sucks, unfixable.

BFG is fixable as long as only one faction has a BFG9000 - "Damagetype "BFGSplash", 0" should do the trick.

Rockets: if you can't rocketjump, just made the rockets a damagetype marines are immune to. It means that it won't hurt the shooter, but if you're already taking out rocket jumping, you might as well give a consolation prize.

[Monsterovich]

[quote=Untitled]BFG is fixable as long as only one faction has a BFG9000 - "Damagetype "BFGSplash", 0" should do the trick.[/quote]

Not only the marines are using this damage type in BFG9000 and adding immunity to it will make them invincible to the enemy BFG spray.

[quote=Untitled]Also, having matches become a matter of patience is a bad idea no matter what - there's a reason samsarahold (which I design) missions are designed to take at most 30 minutes, preferably far less - players don't like waiting.[/quote]

Players can wait about a hour when playing complex survival, so what?

[Untitled]

BFG is fixable as long as only one faction has a BFG9000 - "Damagetype "BFGSplash", 0" should do the trick.

Not only the marines are using this damage type in BFG9000 and adding immunity to it will make them invincible to the enemy BFG spray.

damn.

Also, having matches become a matter of patience is a bad idea no matter what - there's a reason samsarahold (which I design) missions are designed to take at most 30 minutes, preferably far less - players don't like waiting.

Players can wait about a hour when playing complex survival, so what?

Most people don't play mapsets where maps take an hour - also, most people are watching the action, but the important point is that there's still action going on - no one wants to play a waiting game in doom - it's legitimately different when you're a spectator - you're not there for the action. If you're playing, you are there for the action.

[Monsterovich]

[quote=Untitled]Rockets: if you can't rocketjump, just made the rockets a damagetype marines are immune to. It means that it won't hurt the shooter, but if you're already taking out rocket jumping, you might as well give a consolation prize. [/quote]

Also, without rocket damage, marines will use RL at point blank range, like a BFG.

[quote=Untitled]Most people don't play mapsets where maps take an hour[/quote]

Complex Hellbound Survival 1 Life :P

[fr blood]

Is it possible to make seeker missiles seek players for real with puppets, we are on Zand 2.0 so what's the problem ?
They are seeking only at close range like Zand 1.3.

[Monsterovich]

Is it possible to make seeker missiles seek players for real with puppets, we are on Zand 2.0 so what's the problem ?
They are seeking only at close range like Zand 1.3.

The player missiles are the same as monster missiles. What did you mean?

[fr blood]

The player missiles are the same as monster missiles. What did you mean?

Well it seem you don't know the difference, when a monster use a seeker missile whatever the distance is the missile will seek the target, but when a player use this same missile he will have to be really close to have a chance of the same missile to go after his target, that why you can now use SMF_LOOK to fix that problem, did you even played the game, just use the cyberdemon and tell me if his "homing rocket" are homing something.

[Monsterovich]

First release for complex doom v25d2!

Code: Select all

- Ported new monster states & weapon changes
- Changed evade cooldown time to 17
- Nerfed pyrodemon floorhugger like it was in original complex
- Added new CVAR mop_marinesnobfgtime (previous version)

Enjoy new bugs!

Download
Download (more boom support)