DM Revival - MANAGEMENT HELP NEEDED

[Doomkid]

Great, the consensus is the next beta will be made public.

More work from durian:

[Doomkid]

Triple post for great justice.. (?)

Actually, I just recieved some feedback from nub_hat who was doing some Odamex hosting/testing with the first beta. A lot of issues he raises have been addressed, but it's still worth checking out:

I started a server on odamex if anyone wants to try out some of the levels with other people
ip is 93.167.8.70:10666
it'll be up for a while so no rush

played for a bit heres some feedback
map01 - whats with the impassable line at the exit?
map03 - ammo boxes dont respawn with standard server settings causing a lot of pistol action after the boxes have been picked up, could put another weapon somewhere or try to put even more rocket boxes
map07 - HOM, you gotta put textures on the walls
map10 - more HOM action, needs textures
map13 - I didn't like this at all and I'm not sure how this layout could work
map14 - maybe put more ssgs? one of the spawns has the player stuck in a small space with only the pistol
map16 - one of the spawns is on a hurt floor, bfg teleport only seems to work in one direction, there are two areas in the middle which are hurt floors with no way out
map17 - enormous level and very linear, you gotta make the map a lot smaller and connect different rooms to each other, I don't think the invulnerability sphere right in the middle of the level is a good idea if you put that stuff you gotta make it very hard to get, impassable line at plasma is weird
map18 - the layout isn't very good I don't like these small fenced halls, I didn't like the huge area with the ssg and the lift
map19 - could even out the ssg hallway a bit the big height difference in the floor is distracting at the moment, could remove the 2 torches next to the RL its annoying running into them and getting blocked

Feedback always helps, he noted a few things I've yet to notice too, such as players starting in hurting sectors.

[one_Two]

Yeah what is with that impassible exit line? I'll check this out on oda sometime.

[W1D3A55]

NOPE. TIME TO BREAK YOUR CHAIN OF CONSECUTIVE POSTS!

I'll try to fix my map tomorrow. I've got this map and a dom map for Decay going on, plus things outside of the internets.

[katZune]

heh, i did forgot upload my map, i fixed most of things, here is it http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?vbghlq5xz1f1nn3

[Doomkid]

Yeah what is with that impassible exit line?

A weird mistake by me. The door wasn't originally an exit, just scenery, and I didn't want it to snag, then I forgot to uncheck it :P

I'll try to fix my map tomorrow. I've got this map and a dom map for Decay going on, plus things outside of the internets.

There's no rush, whenever you're ready. Your map is cool and I'm interested to see the differences.

heh, i did forgot upload my map, i fixed most of things, here is it http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?vbghlq5xz1f1nn3

Awesome improvements, katZune. I'll give more thourough feedback soon

[Doomkid]

Alrighty everyone, there's been so much work in the past week that I think on the 15th another beta compilation will be made, and May 1st we will do a 3rd beta.

Even if you've already posted a link, throw another one my way so I can include it in the upcoming compilation.

[Ogre]

The Crematorium is coming up nice


Also, here is the download:
http://www.2shared.com/file/f2plxxt1/DMITC.html?



Please tell me what you think.

[Doomkid]

Hard at work I see, Drew! I really like the changes you've made, the alternate exits from each room add greatly to the map. Another one ready for the next beta.

[Doomkid]

Public Beta Time!

Still very early, still choc full of glitches, but a truly impressive amount of progress!
http://www.mediafire.com/?zol7tao2daohsnf

And there are a metric ton of bugs to fix and improvements to be made, but we're still in the early stages of development. This is basically a bigger, improved version of the last beta.

-Map rotation is far from complete! Slots will be changing.
-Small annoyances (my fault, things like incorrect map name or sky textures - all of the small stuff will be ironed out!)
-More missing textures than you can shake a stick at
-Placeholder MIDIs used: some appear on multiple maps. Another minor thing that will be fixed.
-Incompatabilities (Maps in formats not supported by all engines)
-My maps are riddled with stupid mistakes yet to be fixed (the exit on DMR01, or the easy-to-jump-to BFGs on "Block Fort".
-Some maps are still not present for various reasons. Some need to be converted to a different format, and others are simply not far along enoguh to include in this pack. There are more betas on the way- Don't worry if yours isn't here yet!
-Public Servers, Beta Testing, spreading the word - To all these things, Doomkid says "yes".

Have fun with the early beta, and as usual I'd love to hear detailed thoughts from all of you! Many issues in the first 19 maps have been addressed, and many more fixes are in the making, but it's progress and that's what everyone loves to see.

[one_Two]

I'll be putting this up soon.

[Enzo03]

server is up. It's called :: [BE] New York :: Choo Choo Cha' Boogie! Deathmatch Revival Beta 3

[W1D3A55]

Technically its beta 2. Beta 3 comes out may 1.

But seriously, ill look at this and give feedback soon.

[one_Two]

Ok my UK server is up: Union Servers - DeathMatch Revival Testing

[Enzo03]

A UK server and a US server? Awesome. I'll fix the name on my server sometime soon.

[one_Two]

A UK server and a US server? Awesome. I'll fix the name on my server sometime soon.

I'd get rid of the bots to.

[Doomkid]

It's awesome to see that you guys have servers up - Very glad.

Here's some of Captain Toenail's breif thoughts on the maps:

Map01: Solid deathmatch map here, no complaints aside from the already-mentioned exit room blockage.

Map02: Again, another solid dm map, though maybe a bit too similar to the familiar Dwango map01 in layout and theme.

Map03: Simple rocket launcher only arena, could be really fun or just an unfun clusterfuck of gibbage - will need to play online to find out. Maybe a bit too open and symmetrical?

Map04: Quite amusing as a Mario Kart remake, but I'm not sure if it will play well. Lots of BFG and blurspheres might just encourage spamming. I'm sure I have see this map in at least two other Doom projects – must be a popular map to remake. Also the texturing is horrible.

Map05: I am worried that the BFG is far to easy to access in this map – it's placed right in the centre in an easy to access lift. Not quite sure what the side buttons do either. Otherwise pretty cool map – like a round Dead Simple.

Map06: The barrels and the tree might get in the way of combat too often, otherwise this map is fine.

Map07: The layout is a bit boring and I wouldn't have made the main pit so deep. The steep angled stairs can be hard to navigate and there are missing flat textures.

Map08: Really like this Tricks and Traps inspired map. Only thing I can see might be an issue is the central doors being too slow to open – I would make them fast or just have them all open simultaneously and permanently as the map starts.

Map09: Nice map – the iron pillars in the blood corridor might snag players movements though. Corridors may be too tight too.

Map10: This one is full of texturing bugs – missing flats and line textures as well as tutti-frutti. Also there are switches that don't appear to do anything. (cosmetic?) The layout itself might be a bit too open.

Map11: It's a Greenwar(?) clone, so I'm sure it will be fine for dm.

Map12: An Entryway remix – some areas may be too cramped in places, otherwise seems good.

As for the project as a whole, though they are not necessary if we are going to include exit rooms, there should be one in every map to be consistent.

I'll be joining one of those servers soon. :D

[Doomkid]

Hey guys, as a suggestion for the servers, put this link as the URL: http://wadtemp.fathax.com/files/DMR_V3.zip

Wadseeker didn't find it for me when I tried to join, but with that URL, everyone should be able to get in.

[TheNooBringeR]

Can you add me too? I think i will make a map, but idk will i since im pretty busy, im planning to make a map and when i finish it ill put up a download link here.

[Doomkid]

durian (over at Doomworld) has left some incredibly detailed and helpful feedback - Maybe a bit 'abbrasive' compared to my thoughts, but it will be damn helpful for everyone to give it a read.

Okay, thoughts on all the maps (warning: I'm pretty blunt in places, so apologies to the authours of the maps I'm hard on):

Map 01 DMR01
Solid map, with nice flow. More suited to a small number of players, as there's really only one combat area. There are various misaligned textures, and in general the whole thing could do with more attention paid to texturing. The southerly stairs up to the surrounding platform should perhaps be extended to its left and right sides, so players can hit them at a sharp angle and still go up – at the moment they'll get snagged in the corner. I really dislike phony doors, used in any context. It feels ever so slightly cramped/claustrophobic – perhaps play with the scale and some of the angles of the corridors. I'm not sure about the placement of the corridor to the BFG, since it's so nicely integrated into the rest of the map, players are liable to tear into without really meaning to (at least, I have been) – it maybe a nice idea to make that a regular corridor, and put the BFG somewhere that requires the player to travel a bit more out of their way.

Map 02 Entrymake
One of mine from 96/97, with some alterations from DoomKid92. I agree that it's heavily reminiscent of D5M1 in its present state, esp. with the alterations that have been made. It needs some serious work, which I've been doing – both cosmetic stuff, and fiddling with the layout. One of the main things is to reinstate access to the surrounding outdoor ledge, which opens the map out in an interesting way. It will also look a lot nicer (this was the first map I made, and it shows in the texturing).

Map 03 Rocket Jump
Solid map. The texturing could be a little more exciting. The symmetry makes the teleporting a little confusing – I can't keep track of where I'm traveling from and to – maybe re-texture to make the different corners more visually distinctive. Also, the layout and symmetry really promotes a single game dynamic, so it might be pretty repetitive to play – perhaps extend with some interconnected rooms on the sides, with different individual layouts, to vary things a bit.

Map 04 Block Fort
Hmmm... While it made me smile with the MK64 reference, I don't know how well this will play as a DM map – to be honest, it wasn't that great in MK64 as a battle map – but it's something that should be determined by playtesting. Its gimmicky nature puts me off it though, and it's not going to win any beauty contests.

Map 05 Big Donut
Another of mine from 96/97, the second map I made. I can vouch for it being a fun map, since I played it for hours with school friends back in the day. It was designed as a duel map, and I wanted to make something that allowed players to pull BFG tricks. But since it will now be played by more than two players, the BFG should be much harder to get. Also, as with any 'arena' style map, it doesn't promote much diversity in the gameplay, so if I have the time I might find a way to extend it, and break the symmetry, whilst keeping the present layout intact. No height variation either, so all the actions occurs on one level; yawn.

Map 06 Opposing Forces
This seems fine, if a bit 'meh'. Doesn't seem to have much flow. Quite a lot doors, which don't open quickly enough. I'd recommend using some generalised BOOM line actions to speed them up, and perhaps make them walk-activated, so they break up the playing space, but don't slow things down as players open them. There are a few sets of longish stairs which can only be hit from a single angle, and various pillars that the player can snag themselves on. I'm not sure about the crate area in the north-west – dead end, and cramped boxy angles. Just a personal preference, but I really dislike the use of thing-based obstacles in DM maps – in this case, the tree. Just something else to snag oneself on, and they look kinda crappy. If the idea is to break up the line of sight, and/or promote a certain kind of movement pattern, better to use a sector based obstacle, since the proper dimensions of these are much clearer (unlike with 'things'). Could do with a texturing overhaul and a bit of detailing – kind of bland as it is. More fake doors!

Map 07 Generic UAC base.
Seems solid enough, if a little unexciting – quite similar to other maps in the set insofar as it involves a central 'pit' with a raised corridor running a long the sides. It's one massive HOM in Odamex. It's not the kind of detailing that I like personally, but at least some thought and care has been put into it. It's very rectilinear – all 90 degree angles and rectangular rooms/corridors. Some light pillars that protrude and so present a 'snagging' danger. Why the big metal shield in front of the 'hell' area?

Map 08 Trips and Tracks
Hmmm... Well, I get it, it's a reference to a classic DOOM II map, but it's not obvious to me that it will play very well. The layout is kinda confusing, and it's easy to get lost (perhaps I'm just being stupid though). The rooms are all very similar, so the combat has the potential to be quite samey – I'd imagine the encounters will never last very long, and will tend to be very similar to one another – indeed, my guess is that really the layout only promotes one kind of encounter (esp. since the players will never really be aware of where each other are until they've very close), although I could be wrong. Not much to look at either, although of course that's forgiveable with an 'homage' map like this one, but how many homage maps does this set need?

Map 09 Hellfighter
One more of mine from the 90s. I don't really like the retexturing job – it had been more of tech-basey map (see my post on page 1 for a link to the original), and now it seems very garish with all the red everywhere. I also think it suffers from the removal of the connecting north-easterly passage. If it's going to be for more than two players, the whole thing could do with being inflated a bit, and the corridors widened. Again, I'll try to do this if I have the time, and also retexturing to something a bit easier on the eyes. Those pillars are a nuisance, too.

Map 10 Weapon Research Facility
I like the layout of this one, although perhaps it could be supplemented a bit to make it a slightly more complex/interesting, since it's effectively a variation on the 'central pit + surrounding corridor' theme. Lots of HOMs in Odamex. I'm not sure about all the switches – do they do anything or are they just cosmetic, if the latter, then consider replacing. More doors to nowhere! I really dislike it when mappers use small sectors to try to make it look like parts of the wall have fallen onto the floor – nine times out of ten it just doesn't work – just a personal preference though. But it's odd to do that and then to be slack with the rest of the texturing/detailing – in this case, there are some very large walls which use only one texture, so the on the whole the map looks pretty bland. Oh, and another tree – just a nuisance in DM, much better to make something with sectors.

Map 11 One Two's Map
As has been pointed out, a Grenwar clone, so probably quite fun! Could do with some significant tarting up though – an obvious candidate for the Tango treatment.

Map 12 Entrymake 2
I like the concept of this one, but as it stands I think it could flow better – too many doors/dead ends/narrow corridors + 90 degree angles. Since it's another homage, cosmetics needn't be so much of an issue, although that's no reason not to make it look a little less 94ish.

Map 13 The Crematorium
Hmmm... Don't like this one at all. Horrible layout, with little to no flow. Lots of short, windy, narrow corridors, slow lifts, and slow doors. Little to no thought put into detailing and texturing, but completely gratuitous use of advanced features – deep water (although doesn't really work in Odamex since no coloured light) and conveyor belts – that contribute absolutely nothing to gameplay. I'd recommend scrapping, and inviting the author to contribute something better.

Map 14 Spaceport
Not keen on this one either – the layout is just not suitable for DM. My guess is that it's very early mapping work from the author, and so some of the errors – texture alignment, HOMs, hodge-podge detailing, blocking corpses – are forgiveable, but I just don't know if this map layout can really be salvaged. I would recommend that the author plays a bit more DM, and gets a sense for works and what doesn't in a DM environment, and then takes everything they've learned building this one and applies it to building something new from scratch, rather than trying to improve what they have here.

Map 15 The Algae Well
Meh. Again, I get the impression that the authour is both new to mapping and hasn't actually played a lot of DM. It's cramped and pokey, looks pretty bland, and has details that will just snag the player – lots of trees, and protruding pillars, and the 'fallen ceiling' looks awful, and is directly in the way. I don't think it would be much fun to play. Recommend a significant overhaul, or scrapping.

Map 16 Judgement
I like this one – seems to have potential. Some nice flow on the whole, although the corridors all seem pretty narrow, and occasionally too winding, and so the 90 degree turns are not ideal. However: damaging sectors! As I've stated earlier in this thread, I think this is a big mistake for a fun DM map. Also, there seem to be a lot of opportunities for the player to drop into the water/lava, and then have to wait for an elevator to get them out, which interrupts the gameplay, so things aren't so fast and fluid. Nice solid texturing theme, but could probably be improved. Missing flat in the center of the north-westerly courtyard (in Odamex). For an already small map, there isn't actually much playable space – it's really just the courtyard, the water pit, and the connecting pathways, and all of these are pretty pokey.

Map 17 Comfield.
Worst map of the set. Flat, bland, no proper texturing/detailing. Feels like a layout for bad single player map – I can't see it working at all for DM. The gratuitous use of advanced features, and T667-style 'flat sectoring', whilst paying little or no attention to basic layout and texturing, makes this feel like a troll map. I'm sure the authour meant well, but again, they need to play some DM, get a sense for what works, and learn how to texture a map.

Map 18 Splatter House
This has some potential I think, but at the moment it kinda feels like a part of a map, that hasn't been finished. Again, it's a variation on the central pit + surrounding corridor theme, and there are a few strange design decisions (plasma behind a slow door, and the teleporter-flesh-area – not sure that's contributing much). I don't like the textures that the authour has used, and I think it's hard to use the wood textures in a way that's aesthetically pleasing, but the authour does a competent job establishing a theme, but there's lots of off alignment though (and a dodgy door-track). More work on texturing/detailing would be good, as right now it's all a bit samey and bland. Some of the corridors – such the surrounding ledge – are very very narrow.

Map 19 You're in Hell
I've already commented on this one earlier in the thread. The changes made a big improvement, but I think the layout could still be tweaked a bit. The texturing needs some work – various dodgy alignments. I half think the authour should have another crack at making DM map, since they're still new to mapping, and to improve its better to make more maps, than to spend a lot of time fixing up one, and they probably learned a fair bit about DM mapping making this one.

Map 20 Entrymake 3
I actually like this one more than 2 – it has a nice flow, and there's potential there for a strong layout. A bit cramped in places, but still has potential – I'd be interested to see it developed more. A bit too cramped in places. And the texturing is pretty plain.

Map 21 Alpha Areas
I already commented on this one earlier in the thread. I think it's really unsuitable for a DM map, and feels like the authour's very early mapping efforts (quite a few maps here seem to tick this box, which I think accounts for some of the recurring issues). I won't repeat what I said above – recommend either significant overhaul or scrapping.

Map 22 Skull Crusher
Solid map. Looks like it will be fun. No suggested improvements right now.

Map 23 Deathmatch Prison
Seems like it could be a nice layout, although there are a few tweaks that I'd suggest. It's really bland though – another one for Tango?

Map 24 Hell Halls
Again, seems like it could be nice layout, although probably some room to improve the flow – some corridors could be wider, lifts could be quicker, a few dead ends could be removed, etc. Some very small interconnected rooms, which I'm not so sure about, as it makes it feel pretty cramped in places. I dislike the texturing theme, but that's just a personal preference – the red hurts my eyes – and it's done competently enough.

Map 25 JP DM
I really like this – really interesting layout and theme - no 90 degree angles! - and proper thought put into the use of elevators and height variation. The texturing is solid, but a bit bland, and this is an issue since the map's layout is very complex, and so it's easy to lose oneself since it's all so samey. In general, it should be easy for the player to quickly recognise where they are when they respawn, so that they can return to where they just were to continue the fight – I'm not confident that I could do this very well on this map. I think that perhaps the layout should be simplified slightly (but only slighly) and/or the texturing be rethought, so that different areas are more visually distinct from one another. Still, really nice map – would be very interested to play test.

Map 26 No Fun Zone
Solid map. Looks good, and I think it will play well. No suggested improvements at this stage.
Map 27 Suicide House
Hmmm... Well, I get the joke. But since when did 'oldschool' mean '94ish and crappy looking'? I think that it might actually be quite fun to play, but why intentionally make something that looks crummy? Perhaps I'm just being a curmudgeon though.

Map 28 Total War
Barely playable in Odamex – one massive HOM – so difficult to comment. But seems to be very 94ish in terms of layout, scale, and texturing. I suspect it'll need major work.

Map 29 The Grand Void
I really like the idea behind this one, but I think the layout needs some serious restructuring, to improve the flow, and to make it less likely that players will fall off. Great concept though.

That's it. I kinda ran out of steam towards the end. In general, I think there's some great maps here, and some with real potential, and then there's others that are pretty bad. My impression is that the bad maps are by authours who are either new to mapping, or to DM, or both, and so they shouldn't be discouraged, but at the same time it's best to give honest feedback on these things.

Also, There are a few maps that darian and others think should be scrapped, i.e. the crematorium, but I think I see a few small twists that can fix them up greatly. Something about the map seems unique to me, plus awesome music choice :P Hopefully I'll have the time to implement most of these changes before the next public beta.

Noobringer: I've replied over at DW - Getting your map in on time seems inhuman, also It has to pass the stress-test. Not trying to turn you away, though.