Wrath of Cronos RPG 1.8A

[VikingBoyBilly]

If Doomguy has been in the world of Hexen and Heretic a "million" times, I want you to start naming those projects cause I never seen any of those.

Sadly I can name one. Korax arena. =/

[Thetis]

The main reason why I made Wrath of Cronos playable in Doom is because I wanted it to be playable across multiple IWADS. Doomguy has been in the world of Heretic and Hexen a million of times before.

I find myself struggling to create new things from scratch so I try and add my own spin to existing stuff that would fit or I recycle things I have used in my past wads but sometimes I find some things that I feel that would fit so well for a particular weapon. Oh and I am very bad at sprite editing.

I gave the fighter the dragon claw because I felt as though he could use a ranged weapon requiring only blue mana. Also, one could think of it as "long range insta-telekinetic punches".

I understand that you want this project to work on multiple wads but if I want to play something that is "medieval" wads, I think of Hexen and Heretic IWADS. Most the doom wads always have this futuristic or modern feeling to it.
If Doomguy has been in the world of Hexen and Heretic a "million" times, I want you to start naming those projects cause I never seen any of those.

Like I said I'm not a good spriter/scripter/editor myself but I'm asking other people to do it for me and they usually like to help other people with it. They're giving me tutorials or two and that's how I learn from it.

About the Dragon Claw, it still doesn't change the fact it's a very unfitting weapon for the fighter. Because Dragon Claw always used orb as ammo and If you want the range weapon, well give it Witchaven throwing pike axes. DAAAAAH! (inside joke)
But then again, he already has a throwing (Ranged) axe which already uses blue mana.

Samsara and Doom in Heretic also feature Doomguy in the worlds of Hexen and Heretic. I've also seen a mod where Doomguy, Corvus, and Caleb were extra classes in Hexen in the Skulltag forums. And Korax Arena has Doomguy as well.

I really do not like to bother people to create sprites for me.

I should've said long ranged instead. The axe altfire is only there as a short-medium ranged attack if you don't want to stand near a chaos serpent belching stuff at you and I wanted to keep the Fighter not having anything long ranged until later on.

[Weavaloid]

Samsara and Doom in Heretic also feature Doomguy in the worlds of Hexen and Heretic. I've also seen a mod where Doomguy, Corvus, and Caleb were extra classes in Hexen in the Skulltag forums. And Korax Arena has Doomguy as well.

I really do not like to bother people to create sprites for me.

I should've said long ranged instead. The axe altfire is only there as a short-medium ranged attack if you don't want to stand near a chaos serpent belching stuff at you and I wanted to keep the Fighter not having anything long ranged until later on.

You mentioned one project, I thought you said there are "millions" out there.
But Samsara is basicly like Æons of Death, random characters from different games, random enemies from different games. Which I find more acceptable but Wrath of Cronos only has "medieval/fantasy" characters. That's completely different.

Fighters doesn't need a long range attack, the original Hexen never had long range weapons, that's why it's called a "fighter".

[VikingBoyBilly]

The point of the fighter is he's a close range beast. Giving him a fast, long range, rapid-fire attack nullifies his character.

[Popsoap]

Fighters doesn't need a long range attack, the original Hexen never had long range weapons, that's why it's called a "fighter".

What exactly do you classify the Hammer of Retribution and the Quietus as then? Granted they are better at close range, but they can still be used from a distance.

[Thetis]

Samsara and Doom in Heretic also feature Doomguy in the worlds of Hexen and Heretic. I've also seen a mod where Doomguy, Corvus, and Caleb were extra classes in Hexen in the Skulltag forums. And Korax Arena has Doomguy as well.

I really do not like to bother people to create sprites for me.

I should've said long ranged instead. The axe altfire is only there as a short-medium ranged attack if you don't want to stand near a chaos serpent belching stuff at you and I wanted to keep the Fighter not having anything long ranged until later on.

You mentioned one project, I thought you said there are "millions" out there.
But Samsara is basicly like Æons of Death, random characters from different games, random enemies from different games. Which I find more acceptable but Wrath of Cronos only has "medieval/fantasy" characters. That's completely different.

I listed 3 mods: Samsara, Doom Weapons in Heretic, and the three classes mod for Hexen. Also, NecroDoom, a mod by Xaser, is also playable in Raven games. IIRC, in the Doomworld index of wads (or however someone would call it) there are several mods with guns in Hexen (I haven't played them myself however). Again, only reason why its playable in Doom is because I wanted it to be playable in Doom, just like it is playable in both Hexen (Original IWAD for it to be played in for a long time) and Heretic.

EDIT: Welp, I have to update to 1.4D, I found some not exactly gamebreaking bugs but there are some that are just annoying to deal with.

I had to clientside Wraithverge altfire trails because not only were they not clientsided, it can cause people to lose packets. Also, you can apparently use a disc of repulsion on Divine Punishment and then not be able to use the spell again. Preserverance Aura also was not applying to teammates.

Wrath of Cronos 1.4D Download here.

[InquisitiveSpellcaster]

Greetings, Mr. Weavaloid and Mr. VikingBoyBilly.

Regarding your previous comments on this mod and the way Mr.Thetis has handled the iwad usage, I have a question to you. However please do let me clarify that I mean this with no ill intent, but with a good-willed curiosity and willfulness to comprehend your point of view regarding the fact that Hexen characters and weapons "do not belong" in Doom.

To quote Mr. Weavaloid:

For instance, I just don't get why this wad is playable on Doom because most of the time you're carying your melee weapon while the zombies shoots you down from a far range, it's like waiting in a corner till they come out. But aint Doom a bit "futuristic" for the medieval classes?
Imagine if Doomguy was in Heretic or Hexen.

I am afraid I fail to see what's the problem with the wad being playable on Doom. I understand the problem of zombies firing at long range with hitscan weapons, however the damage they cause is mostly negligible and indeed the player classes in WoC possess long range attacks of their own, so indeed in the case of the original iwads they are only to be faced with melee attacks in the first two maps of Doom I and only the first one in Doom II since you can obtain Weapons 2 and 3 from the beginning. I understand this would be an issue for the Fighter since his weapons are mainly melee oriented, especially Timon's Axe, however the addition of its projectile positively solves this issue.

Leaving that aside, I am sorry but I cannot find any problem regarding Doom being futuristic for medieval classes, nor can I find any irregularities for Doomguy being on Heretic or Hexen. Please do allow me to explain the reasoning behind this: Seeing as both games are not only based on the same engine but are centered around the same overall mechanic, i.e. killing monsters and going from point a to point b, gameplay-wise there is no discrepancy between them; as such playing with Hexen characters on Doom and with Doomguy on Hexen still manages to be quite an enjoyable experience. While I understand that there may be some thematic clash between a Sci-Fi oriented character set in a medieval world and viceversa, in my honest opinion I do not think this is a deterrent to enjoy the gameplay. Granted, it may play differently to what one may be accustomed within the game, e.g. killing Ettins with a shotgun or zombiemen with an axe, but I believe that as long as the core gameplay mechanics remain untouched in the games, which I think is the case, then the mod can work perfectly within both.

I deduce however that this may be entirely a matter of opinion. To further quote you, Mr. Weavaloid:

I understand that you want this project to work on multiple wads but if I want to play something that is "medieval" wads, I think of Hexen and Heretic IWADS. Most the doom wads always have this futuristic or modern feeling to it.
If Doomguy has been in the world of Hexen and Heretic a "million" times, I want you to start naming those projects cause I never seen any of those.

In this case well, the way I interpret it, if you would like to play something medieval then you do so, and if you'd like to play something futuristic then you do so as well. As such I fail to see what is the matter with the mod being compatible with Doom, seeing as this compatibility is entirely optional and of course up to the end-user. As I stated before, I would like to know why is it that some avid Id-games fans see the union between games such as Doom and Hexen as something so unfitting, seeing as this is not the first time I have seen this being mentioned; due to this, I would really appreciate it, a lot, if you were so kind to tell me why is it unfitting, going beyond the fact that a game is Sci-Fi and the other is Gothic Fantasy.

Furthering this inquiry, I would like to quote Mr. VikingBoyBilly:

If Doomguy has been in the world of Hexen and Heretic a "million" times, I want you to start naming those projects cause I never seen any of those.

Sadly I can name one. Korax arena. =/

I would like to ask you Mr. VikingBoyBilly, if I may of course, why is it sad that there is a mod that has Doomguy in Hexen? I am honestly unable to comprehend why is that a sad situation, seeing as it is just a mod created by a group of users who wanted to have fun and share it with people just as, in my opinion, the very Wrath of Cronos; And indeed, now that I further analyze Mr. Weavaloid's comment, it would appear that he was also angry at the mention of Doomguy being in Hexen and Heretic, "wanting to start naming projects". The manner in which I see the situation, possibly because of my own naïvete, is that there is no written or implicit rule that states that Doomguy belongs in Doom and Baratus, Parias and Daedolon belong in Hexen; tus seeing it referred as something sad and being given an overall negative connotation stirs up the doubt in me, the same I've stated since the beginning: Why is it so bad, beyond a mere genre discrepancy? I really hope, good Messrs., that you can provide me with the resolution of this doubt; as I have so expressed, I would be most thankful of you both.

Now geared at Mr. Thetis, I would like to commend you once again on the amounts of effort put out by you and the team who has made this mod possible; whether in Doom, Heretic or Hexen it has indeed provided with hours upon hours of good, most delectable fun. A question regarding its future which I posted before, which went unanswered and buried on the comment tread and which I apologize for asking again: Are there any plans to make this mod compatible with Strife as well? In my opinion that would be a cool feature seeing as that would complete the ID games repertoire; but indeed it is merely a doubt of mine.

Finally, regarding a possible merge with or compatibility patch for Mr. UltimateDoomer's Serpent Resurrection, I am glad to see that it is still an idea. I really hope he responds in a positive manner so it is brought into existence; truly it would be, for me as a fan of both mods, a most fantastic thing.

Cheers and godspeed on the future of this mod.

Yours truly, Mr. InquisitiveSpellcaster.

[Thetis]

Well I figured out how to properly give weapons to the player in Strife earlier today if that would clue you in on my plans for the next version.

[InquisitiveSpellcaster]

Yes indeed, of course it would, thank you very much.

To that I would just like to say: FANTASTIC!

[Bloax]

Again, only reason why its playable in Doom is because I wanted it to be playable in Doom, just like it is playable in both Hexen (Original IWAD for it to be played in for a long time) and Heretic.

I specifically wanted it to be playable in Doom because it's the only one of all the games ZDoom supports that actually has a wide array of good maps available for it.

Do you have the equivalents to Scythe/2, Hell Revealed/2, Alien Vendetta, Requiem, Deus Vult/2 (again) - just to name a few that I know - available for Hexen or Heretic?

I don't want to play a rather cool mod just on the Hexen maps. Because the Hexen maps are pretty dull.

[HexaDoken]

If you do not like running around space bases and planes of Hell and fighting against zombies using firearms whilist playing a barbarian or a mage or a something, bloody don't. Nobody forces you to.
I'm sorry if that sounds a bit rude but I just find your complaint to be absolutely pointless.

The complaint about dragon claw, whilist much less pointless, is something I have to disagree with as well. Without a weapon that can shoot at high ranges and has a fast projectile/hitscan attack, Afrits turn into a major annoyance to Fighter. A very, very major annoyance. Dragon claw easily fixes it without really disrupting the close combat nature of a fighter. He is still close combat oriented, because the dragon claw is utterly useless against anything that can actually whistand some actual damage. Every melee weapon can produce considerably higher damage in considerably shorter time. This is less true if you take the shotgun altfire into concideration, but shotgun is definitely not a ranged weapon(because the accuracy is laughable).

About changing dragon claw to a weapon that behaves similary in terms of gameplay but looks different so it suits fighter more, I dunno. Dragon claw is just the most badass sounding weapon of Heretic, and I'd be sad to see it go. Plus, I don't see why it doesn't fit. It's a dragon claw - dragons, if I recall correctly, are usually pictured as giant monstrosities that shrug off attacks like if they are nothing and (optionally)raze cities. Pretty much fits the brute Barbarian is, huh?

[Weavaloid]

If you do not like running around space bases and planes of Hell and fighting against zombies using firearms whilist playing a barbarian or a mage or a something, bloody don't. Nobody forces you to.
I'm sorry if that sounds a bit rude but I just find your complaint to be absolutely pointless.

The complaint about dragon claw, whilist much less pointless, is something I have to disagree with as well. Without a weapon that can shoot at high ranges and has a fast projectile/hitscan attack, Afrits turn into a major annoyance to Fighter. A very, very major annoyance. Dragon claw easily fixes it without really disrupting the close combat nature of a fighter. He is still close combat oriented, because the dragon claw is utterly useless against anything that can actually whistand some actual damage. Every melee weapon can produce considerably higher damage in considerably shorter time. This is less true if you take the shotgun altfire into concideration, but shotgun is definitely not a ranged weapon(because the accuracy is laughable).

About changing dragon claw to a weapon that behaves similary in terms of gameplay but looks different so it suits fighter more, I dunno. Dragon claw is just the most badass sounding weapon of Heretic, and I'd be sad to see it go. Plus, I don't see why it doesn't fit. It's a dragon claw - dragons, if I recall correctly, are usually pictured as giant monstrosities that shrug off attacks like if they are nothing and (optionally)raze cities. Pretty much fits the brute Barbarian is, huh?

I'm not sure if you're reading my messages correctly, since I said I'm only giving my feedback away. Whats a game without having oppinions or feedback? I'm not forcing Thetis to change it to my likings, I'm just looking for anwsers. That's why I bothered commenting on this forum threat.

But you don't see the point of a "fighter" being close combat class.
Ofcourse killing Afrits with the fighter class is annoying, but in the all these classes in Hexen has their poison and their awesomeness.
Like I said Dragon Claw uses Orbs instead of mana, I think the mana drains to easy away since a fighter is about brute strength, not magic, nor dexerity (accuracy).

[HexaDoken]

Well we should also probably worry about solo because uh, there is not always a pal by your side who is ready to help you out.

As said before, the fighter is still a combat class. Yeah, now he has some ranged capability, but considering the vastly superior damage of melee and fighter's nature of a damage sponge, if you use dragon claw in times where you could use melee you are really doing it wrong.

In coop, the fighter is a fighter, and he is focused on charging headlong in the crowd screaming like a bloody idiot and punching the face of everything that dares to stand in the way, while more ranged oriented classes do their thing and take care of pests that are out of fighter's reach.
That is when they are feeling like playing in a team. Which is almost never. But oh well.

Yeah, fighter isn't about magycks. That's why he cannot call the forces of Hell or whatever and make bloody pillars of flame appear out of the ground and scorch everything to death. But minor magic is well under his reach, isn't it? How would pretty much all his other weapons that aren't his fists work?
And about fighter not being about dexterity - do I need to remind that he is the class with the highest movement speed in vanilla Hexen?

I quite frankly do not understand what are you trying to say about orbs. Are you trying to suggest that dragon claw should use a different ammo type? Because introducing one specifically for dragon claw seems like... eh. Well it certainly would be out of place, to suddenly step away from the common system.

[President People]

Samsara is basicly like Æons of Death, random characters from different games, random enemies from different games.

Samsara's classes are not random, they're mainly chosen for being some of the most iconic in the FPS genre. If an especially notable hero is not included, it's because the project leader isn't fond of the game, doesn't know enough about it, or the engine can't properly support them. In any of the three cases, he believes he wouldn't be able to do that hero justice, whereas a dedicated fan might. He's quite open to suggestions, and is willing to listen if someone finds a way to make it work.

And there aren't any randomized enemies. Not in the core file, at least. There's a Monster Mixer addon that does just that, but it's by a third party.

In case you're referring to the Naraka addon, those classes are not random either (being selected from their respective Heroes' game), and are not necessarily enemies.


O-o-on topic, I can't really say anything that hasn't been said (or rather, ask what's been asked) concerning medieval guys in DooM maps and vice-versa. Wrath of Cronos plays in HeXen and Heretic just fine, even originating there, iirc.

(InquisitiveSpellcaster, may the monocle that you must surely be wearing never be smudged, and never lose its shine)

[VikingBoyBilly]

Hi president people!

Well I don't know about Weavaloid, but my concern about doom and heretic patches isn't with characters that don't belong, but with characters that should be there, but aren't. When I heard about heretic and doom patches, I was expecting an rpg system made for the doom marine and sidhe elf. Seeing them taken out for the Hexen characters catches me off guard and is eyebrow raising

At the same time I understand it must be hard to come up with a proper use of the rpg stats for corvus and doomguy, since most of their weapons aren't based on intrinsic strength or magic. (Corvus is different from the Hexen classes in that their weapons use their inner mana power, whereas corvus gathers external magical ammunitions for them).

[Weavaloid]

Look, my english never was great neither was my explanatory, therefore I want to apologize for it.
I do understand that you guys want it to be playable on the Doom standards and other Doom wads.
I just want to clearify that it is really hard to play this wad on Doom due to the amount of melee weapons you start off with. Imagine playing WoC on Plutonia or any other harder wads out there.
Though I'm not concerned about how out of place it is, however I do not understand how this wad works with other Doom wads if they include renamed-custom-made weapons and enemies (which arent replacable due to the patch) and you know there are lots of Doom projects out there. Please understand my point of view and that's why I find it a little weird that this wad should be playable for every IWADS out there.

[MarkuzESP]

The only thing I think is broken in the mod (as balance, overall) is the Mage starting weapon, Sapphire Wand. Come on, that thing makes most Mage weapons useless. Look at the Jade Wand, or the Arc of Death. Who uses those things while you can have a ripping-rays-shooting-wand that also deals very good amounts of damage. I've even discarded using the Frost Shards in some situations because Sapphire is too much useful and also ammo-saving for the Bloodscourge.

Talking about the starting levels... I don't know any wad or Iwad which arrives to the point of being unbeatable due to starting with melee weapons. I can tell you that i'm just a guy who plays Doom sometimes, don't expect incredible skill or amazing moves, and even in Hell Revealed 2, in which I had several problems at the beginning with Fighter, became easy as pie to beat the first level. And, in case of problem, just remember that you will likely OHKO basic enemies in non-modded (other than Wrath of Cronos itself :P) Doom 1 or Doom 2 maps in just 1 hit (being those Zombiemen and Shotgunners, Fighter even gibs them with his bare fists). I'd just say that it's pure practice and, unlike common Doom gameplay, DON'T GO RAMBO against enemies. It does not work at the beginning, you're just a guy with a big banner over your head which says "Eh, you. Yes, you there. Kill me plz."

EDIT 1 : Noticed that the playable characters are slightly taller than Doomguy. Noticed that because I was unable to cross a door to get a secret in Single Player and had to crouch, tried with normal game and was able to go through the same door without crouching.

[Popsoap]

Though I'm not concerned about how out of place it is, however I do not understand how this wad works with other Doom wads if they include renamed-custom-made weapons and enemies (which arent replacable due to the patch) and you know there are lots of Doom projects out there.

Not really much of an argument, most mods work this way where they can't be combined with other mods. This was meant for maps which have no custom content (There are a shitload too).

[President People]

Hi president people!

Hallo Viking!

Well I don't know about Weavaloid, but my concern about doom and heretic patches isn't with characters that don't belong, but with characters that should be there, but aren't. When I heard about heretic and doom patches, I was expecting an rpg system made for the doom marine and sidhe elf. Seeing them taken out for the Hexen characters catches me off guard and is eyebrow raising :hmm:

At the same time I understand it must be hard to come up with a proper use of the rpg stats for corvus and doomguy, since most of their weapons aren't based on intrinsic strength or magic. (Corvus is different from the Hexen classes in that their weapons use their inner mana power, whereas corvus gathers external magical ammunitions for them).

Corvus is represented somewhat by the Hunter class, I'd say.

It'd be hard to have Corvus' various ammo types because only Heretic would be able to support them directly. Also, he's from Parthoris, not Cronos.

DooMGuy would probably be in much the same boat. However, it's interesting to imagine what a version of him from Cronos would be like. (Medieval-styled weapons, HeXen-style sprites (face obscured by inexplicable shadows), etc.)

[InquisitiveSpellcaster]

Greetings.

I would just like to inform that the Heretic Compatibility Patch 1.4C (Not sure if it is the Not-Hexen patch) does not contain the sprites for "Wizard" actors, the Disciples of D'sparil. As such, a nifty red triangle with a "!" mark appears in their stead.

Just a heads up, cheers.