[split] Forum Bans discussion

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#21

Post by infurnus » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:42 am

Decay wrote: But wasn't it just alluded to that drama was being brought to the forums? In this case, wouldn't the way to go would be to completely omit that information to prevent people from being confused? Wouldn't it be better to actually separate and completely forget what went on elsewhere, and warn/suspend/moderate/ban STRICTLY on what is presented here?

The problem is what is being said versus what is being seen.
I understand the sentiment, but I think it's disingenuous to omit what seems to be pertinent information regarding rule breakers. I guess what you are asking is for a reform similar to what that the master banlist underwent, but more specific?
Decay wrote:None of this is relevant. What is the point you're trying to make here?
I had the impression you were defending him; disregard it, though it does just reiterate that I have heard similar arguments before from the person I banned. They made many of the same points you did, regarding what I quoted above.
Decay wrote:I never said they were coming from you specifically. I suggested that the bans were far more personal than they should be.
I was referring to the individuals that were banned having personal vendettas.

Normally, suspensions are for anything that comes after a user ignores warnings, while bans are reserved for repeat infractions.

Arguably the most 'unreasonable' ban or whatever that I recently did, would probably be Lance.
He has only about 2 posts on the forums, though instigated quite a bit of useless forum drama over the past year or so.

I have been personally contacted by him and a few others, who shall remain nameless, to address various issues and concerns he had, while also dealing with drama he stirred up both on the forums and on IRC.
He and the others have talked to the staff, and have repeatedly been told how to deal with the various issues they had.
He also had a very negative attitude towards the staff, and he had been told to improve, though did not show many signs of improving.
While I will concede that Lance and Slim's recent punishment came later than intended or maybe expected (esp. on Lance's part), the staff had continuously been promised that the situation would improve, but alas they did not.

I'll elaborate a bit on the forums drama:
Basically he was repeatedly told to cut it out, but instead of stopping or cutting back the flamewars seemed to ramp up.

Slim had been involved, though not as close in retrospect (I shortened his ban from 3 months to 1 month right after issuing it), though he did participate in some of the flamewars, and we had talked a few times about addressing the situation better.

Basically, if shit is "going down" on the forums, it's best to report a post or other behavior to the volunteer staff, instead of jumping into it yourself.
Hopefully that makes sense.

I hope this does not sound too vague, but honestly we should be allowed to get rid of repeat troublemakers if the shit they stir is too time consuming to properly clean up each and every time.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#22

Post by Hammerfest- » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:43 am

The Toxic Avenger wrote:
Hammerfest- wrote: May I ask that I be kept out of whatever petty argument you are having with Decay or whatever party is involved? I seldom post most of the time.
You weren't even brought up to begin with. You just happened to have the post above Mark's in that thread; your name was never actually mentioned.
Allow me to help you out.
Decay wrote:
infurnus wrote:You're only mad cause I banned your transphobic troll buddy the other day.

Stay on topic or I'll ban you too.
Ban someone with (presumably) few ones, reasonable posts, and a truthful attitude? Chill the fuck out son, I didn't realize this was the zdaemon forums.
Do I need to hold your hand with anything else? I did ask mighty kindly.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#23

Post by infurnus » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:51 am

Honestly you two need better reading comprehension. And no, don't try to spin this into a "personal attack"; you actually need to improve your reading comprehension.

Also, tell me how or why the bans are personal or political?
Referring to someone's behavior or actions, be it sexist/racist/etc, is not as political as someone who is good at mental gymnastics might think.

The rules of the forum pretty much make it clear that any activity like that is not tolerated, and my post in that other thread was a digression relating to poor behavior of a banned user.

I guess I need to pretend Zandronum is a vaccum and never mention any questionable behavior by anyone, let alone a banned user, to make a point in some thread that people need to stay on topic? I guess facetious satire is now deemed unprofessional or political or whatever now. Honestly fill me in here, clearly I am uneducated on that subject in particular.

Honestly, Decay, you made the Sgt. Mk. call-out thread, and all I did was make some minor references to other questionable member(s) of the community. I didn't think it should be much of a stretch to see where I was coming from with my posts.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#24

Post by infurnus » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:58 am

If you guys want me to whip people into shape, say so directly, let's not beat around the bush or argue past each other.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#25

Post by infurnus » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:52 am

Decay wrote: That's about all I have to say about it. Whatever problems Bluewiz had for it, I really couldn't care less.
My point was more about this: You quoted my comment referring to Catastrophe in reply to Hammerfest's reaction/overreaction to an Igor post.
I was citing that the only reason I did so was because it seemed to be something that individuals like yourself would agree with the sentiment of.

But somehow it makes me look like Kilgore or something for reasons still not fully explained?
Decay wrote:What? There is no need to be aggressive. However, if users are being unreasonable, perhaps shorter suspensions or short term bans are a better solution than extended ones with vague reasoning, which is all I'm really saying.
Don't know why you read my post as promoting aggression but that's besides the point.

That doesn't sound unreasonable, but it's starting to sound more like an argument about semantics, as opposed to claims of "dodging" or whatnot. What am I dodging, if anything?
Decay wrote: How does that even work? Please explain.
Long story short:
Lance basically would trick people into posting on his behalf, thinking anything the users would do would get them punished instead of himself.
He would sit back relatively unscathed.
Had some odd vendettas against a few people and would hypocritically call for myself and others to go after certain forum posters while conveniently ignoring said forum posters going after other forum members that he personally disliked.

There is evidence of him doing this but I am not entirely sure it is what you're asking for so I'll leave this here.
Decay wrote: I agree but then I get shit like "you're seeing things" or "this isn't valid" or "lol" or [shut down with logs]
Is that when you were suspended for shit-stirring or another time?

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#26

Post by Ruin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:53 am

Aw, I don't have a horse in this race, but thanks for thinking of me.
Decay wrote: [01:41] <08@Ruin> oh boy, what did I miss this time!
06[01:43] <04@HeavenWraith> decay reported a post
[01:44] <08@Ruin> I'm looking at it.
[01:44] <08@Ruin> He's silly. And needs a hug.
[02:03] <08@Metal> Thilly

<Ruin>Can we take the report button away from Decay?
<Metal>That's the second time.
<Metal>infurnus: If you're around, I'm going to make a group that removes the report button. Either that, or I'm warning decay with 3 points. Hopefully it suspends him.
Yup. I did say that out of jest. Mostly because I was tired of clearing out multiple illegitimate reports for "back handed compliments" iirc. Did I endorse a group? No. Pretty sure I was against the idea. Your leaked logs should confirm that. Thanks for verifying my suspicions btw.

[01:44] <08@Ruin> He's silly. And needs a hug.

I'm still totally down for that.
Last edited by Ruin on Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#27

Post by Ruin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:09 am

Decay wrote: @Ruin sorry to name drop you but I don't obscure logs :( Sorry.
iz ok bby
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#28

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:11 am

Pretty damning logs honestly. Good thing that kind of attitude is nearly gone from the administration.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#29

Post by Ruin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:14 am

I've already stated multiple times that if people want me to fuck off, I will do so. Though this has taught me to never say anything in jest/frustration anywhere ever.
Last edited by Ruin on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#30

Post by V 3 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:37 am

All bans are inherently unfair. Remove all the bans. Why contain it? :bobpage:

Two people saying the other is angry, one slowly becomes less angry and more open to debate, the other doubles down and says the other is getting more aggressive.
Hmmm....

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#31

Post by mifu » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:10 pm

So ive been reading this thread and well, I really do not agree with one main thing here

It's all well and good to ask how long people are banned for and to get more clarification on reasonings but then I read stuff like:

[quote=Decay]As far as bans being permanent, is the shit they've done really warranted more than a month? Sounds like personal vendettas to me.[/quote]

Personal? Really? Since when was banning trouble makers or anyone breaking rules instantly becomes a personal issue that ends up a ban as a result? Blue has been doing silly things as off late and quite frankly, stalking strikerman from thread to thread just to post "lol" in it because of something strikerman said in one thread just to piss someone off would be his limit. This guy knows whats up.

[quote=Ænima]
I get that, people like Cata and Danzoa who have their posts split at least once a week are bound to hit their limit sometime[/quote]

No really, All I see here is someone white knighting their buddy even though hes been warned a-lot and has been told to stop breaking rules (or in general, to stop pissing people off and by people I mean communtiy members).. Ive lost track so maybe a forum mod can help me out here. Blue should of known that if he was going to do what he did, there would be risk as a result, but he did it anyways.

Im getting really annoyed that people would even defend people who do bad things around here. I should mention that this is not the only time that this has happened.

I get the fact that ban times could be unfair, but to say that it was personal is a bunch of crap. No staff member hates Blue to the point where his ban became a ban because we dislike him. He got banned because he keeps on pissing communtiy members off, he has been warned many times but keeps on doing it anyways.

I get lances forum ban is weird as he has not posted much here but as Infurnus already said, Lance was already causing issues here by using others to do it for him. As for strikerman, as his one was a bit of a request based on his forum sigs etc, I dont think he will be banned for a while though I could be wrong here but Blue's ban, really is worth more then a month, regardless if it's a perm or not.

Anyways thats my 2 cents worth of posting in regards to this issue. Of course feel free to agree/disagree and reply but honestly, thats all I am seeing here.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#32

Post by CloudFlash » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:02 pm

If Blue's ban was personal issue as you say, then you'd probably get banned for supporting the person mods have personal issues with. Just letting that sink into your unbanned head.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#33

Post by Galactus » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:42 pm

CloudFlash wrote: If Blue's ban was personal issue as you say, then you'd probably get banned for supporting the person mods have personal issues with. Just letting that sink into your unbanned head.
Implying the admins wanted to make it look obvious that it's a personal issue.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#34

Post by Ruin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:19 pm

FTW395 wrote:
CloudFlash wrote: If Blue's ban was personal issue as you say, then you'd probably get banned for supporting the person mods have personal issues with. Just letting that sink into your unbanned head.
Implying the admins wanted to make it look obvious that it's a personal issue.
You forgot your tin foil hat.

Seriously, it's a fucking trend. Anytime somebody with a bit of presence gets banned from the boards, someone spouts off with this. I just sit back and wait for it. Holy shit, and people call us paranoid.
Last edited by Ruin on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#35

Post by Ænima » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:44 pm

mifu wrote: Blue has been doing silly things as off late and quite frankly, stalking strikerman from thread to thread just to post "lol" in it because of something strikerman said in one thread just to piss someone off would be his limit. This guy knows whats up.
I agree, that's just childish. I don't understand what started the vendetta between those two anyways.
mifu wrote: Im getting really annoyed that people would even defend people who do bad things around here. I should mention that this is not the only time that this has happened.
I'm not denying, ignoring, or condoning Blue's asinine behavior as of recently. He's pissed me off in the past but I don't really hold it against him. He can be a smart likable guy when he chooses to, he's just always had an immature side I guess. And lately he seems to have some sort of ego or maybe a power trip from having a purple name. Or some feeling of entitlement from being here a long time and knowing everyone. Idunno.

I know he's a repeat offender and I don't expect him to change (although it would be nice), so if the admins are tired of cleaning up the messes he makes then I can't argue that their decision isn't justified.

It still makes me sad though. :sad: :cry: :sad:
mifu wrote: No really, All I see here is someone white knighting their buddy
He's not my "buddy". I said he's a friend, like he's a cool player and I join a server if i see him in it or test whatever mod he's working on, etc. I don't have him on Skype, i'm never on his TS server, i've never been in his clans. He's not my BFF, but he's not disposable. To me, at least.


Ah well. Guess we'll still see the recently-forum-banned group of people ingame, rite?
Last edited by Ænima on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#36

Post by Hammerfest- » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:58 pm

infurnus wrote: Honestly you two need better reading comprehension. And no, don't try to spin this into a "personal attack"; you actually need to improve your reading comprehension.

Blah blah blah...
I can't really say that I'm surprised at the whole "don't try to spin this into a personal attack" piece. You must of not gotten a lot of attention when you were young or something. I honestly have no personal quarrel with you or anyone that works as staff as far as I'm concerned (It'd be rather silly too.) I wouldn't know if vice versa applies though, but whatever.
infurnus wrote:
Decay wrote: That's about all I have to say about it. Whatever problems Bluewiz had for it, I really couldn't care less.
My point was more about this: You quoted my comment referring to Catastrophe in reply to Hammerfest's reaction/overreaction to an Igor post.
I was citing that the only reason I did so was because it seemed to be something that individuals like yourself would agree with the sentiment of.

But somehow it makes me look like Kilgore or something for reasons still not fully explained?
I wasn't aware about Catastrophe even getting banned until after I had pissed on your 'funny' Igor post (Like I stated previously, I seldom rummage through the forums unless something interesting like that Invasion thread pops up.) As far as I'm concerned, I care not, and I intend to not even bother, with Bluewiz getting banned from the forums. I seldom talk to Bluewiz unless he brings up something about undergrad studies, etc. Whatever led you to believe that I was defending Bluewiz, whether it be teamspeak, the fact that I hang around with people he hangs around with, whatever the case, you have either been misinformed or you were too busy attempting to make me look like an ass rather than approaching me first about it. Regardless though, I'd thought I'd make myself clear on this, just so you can keep it in the back of your head for future reference.

To mifu, read above if that post is/was directed at me. If not, my mistake.

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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#37

Post by Ruin » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:22 pm

I got no problem with criticism Decay, I really don't. If I am doing poorly at something or did something people don't agree with, I want to know about it. My irritation comes from this idea that people think we sit on irc plotting out who to fuck with because they said something we don't like. Have I said things out of frustration? Sure, but my personal feeling do not override my decision making. Do I agree that some ideas brought up in staff channels are less than ideal? Absolutely. It is definitely not an echo chamber in there, however.

(Posting from a phone, sorry if it isn't worded well).
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#38

Post by Ru5tK1ng » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:27 pm

I will have to say that Ruin is probably honest in his statement. From the looks of all the logs, it just seems to be infurnus just plotting all alone by himself. :igor:
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#39

Post by Ænima » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:04 pm

He's right tho, these big debates always come after a major ban. :v

I think that can be a healthy thing though. It brings into focus questions such as "can I be banned just for being an asshole all the time?" and "will supporters of my mods be able to sway opinions?". DoomMarine (Deus Vult), SgtMark (Brutal Doom), and now Catastrophe.
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RE: [split] Forum Bans discussion

#40

Post by CloudFlash » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:34 am

Ænima wrote: "will supporters of my mods be able to sway opinions?". DoomMarine (Deus Vult), SgtMark (Brutal Doom), and now Catastrophe.
IMHO, just because you support the community by making awesome mods, that doesn't instantly give you the golden star of unbannability - you might be the savior of this community, but you are still a member, and as such rules DO apply.
But I guess I'm in no position to speak anyways, seeing how I'm by no means relevant to this discossion...
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