[split] Lost Faction (Competition discussion)

[IdeIdoom]

Water and Tor take their leave from LF. Expect to see [Wumbo] pop up soon.

[IMAGE]

I wonder if Wumbo will really live after the WDL as a clan, but seeing the competition has died here on Zan, it'll probably be an Oda clan.

[Kara Kurt]

"died" is a mighty big word, competition, scrims, tournaments, etc, are just a matter of will; it dies a month and relive for 3 months.

I know some people will contradict me on that but it's just plain stupid to focus on a port as Odamex when Zandro can potentially have the biggest clan scene (and I'm not saying this because I dislike the port or whatsoever), even though most clans reliability/stability are questionable, greatest probably not, as competition on Oda is quality, so basically competition on Zandro = quantity > quality.

[Torvald]

"died" is a mighty big word, competition, scrims, tournaments, etc, are just a matter of will; it dies a month and relive for 3 months.

I know some people will contradict me on that but it's just plain stupid to focus on a port as Odamex when Zandro can potentially have the biggest clan scene (and I'm not saying this because I dislike the port or whatsoever), even though most clans reliability/stability are questionable, greatest probably not, as competition on Oda is quality, so basically competition on Zandro = quantity > quality.

I have a few speculations.

Part of the problem is, it's unorganized quantity with a tainted name. I've lost count of how many leagues and tournaments that have been organized in this community - that have fallen short, or barely finished on life support.

Nobody shows excitement anymore; the mention of starting a league only brings out nauseated responses. Zandronum might have had the biggest clan scene at one point, but it broke apart. Private ctf is - in my opinion, a joke now. People don't care if a person sits on the bench the entire priv, they just want the strongest players and the easiest win. (this irritates me somewhat, I like to see everyone play at least one round now and then.)

I'm sure some people share the same view with me, others maybe not so much. I wanted to see zandronum booming with a competitive community, but one failed attempt after another has only left a tainted name for this port when it comes to anything competitive. I greatly appreciate people like Dragon and Soul who, together, have always gone above and beyond the call of duty to try and create a more active competitive scene, but the players would always trickle out mid way-near the end of the season and it would all go to shit.

There's simply not enough motivation for people to improve their game here. If there was we'd be seeing more dm, duels, and privs & pub ctf. No one new is coming in, and most importantly: all the dedicated players are on Odamex right now.

I think the reason why people are focusing on odamex is because it's away from all the baggage this port carries with it. It's more condensed and reliable and everyone is looking for a challenge. People who really want to play competitive will know where to go, that simple. As far as mechanical game-play goes, I personally find Odamex on a whole higher tier than Zandronum; games aren't decided by someones internet connection.

[Metal]

Going to have to agree with Tor. Ever since Skulltag, the only thing ST/Zan could faithfully dedicate itself to was FNF. And that's one night a week for a few hours and even then it only lasts maybe an hour or so before it dies. There ARE new people coming in, but they're automatically introduced to AOW, Whodunit, GVH, Zombie horde, brutal doom, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it takes away from the competitive part of the community. Odamex and ZDaemon (Before 1.9) catered to a more mature audience, while Zandronum caters to all audiences, it attracts younger players who aren't so much interested in competitive games as they are addictive, sometimes horribly balanced game modes.

Zandronum is a great port itself, but there's no point in looking for competition here other than the odd small tourney.

[Ru5tK1ng]

I think the reason why people are focusing on odamex is because it's away from all the baggage this port carries with it. It's more condensed and reliable and everyone is looking for a challenge.

I wouldn't call a port reliable if it suffers a bug like this: http://odamex.net/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=1139

People who really want to play competitive will know where to go, that simple.

Unfortunately Oda will always be a niche port and it's competitive scene will always be what it has been: borrowed talent. IDL's 3 seasons pretty much showed this effect when nearly all of the sign ups either came from ZD or ST.

I will surprisingly agree with Kara Kurt on the point that the scene goes through slumps every time. f(x)=sin basically graphs the Zan competitive scene and the trends it has every year. Keep in mind that currently people are dealing with school and work and things like these always eat up that extra time. Also, A3 is busy doing other things and there is no big bad witch to hate currently.

Also, PrivCTF has always been like that as far back as ZD Priv. "Where have you been"? Trust me, the issue of how priv should be (pickup games/training/fun/etc) conducted is a whole fight in itself.

[IdeIdoom]

Part of the problem is, it's unorganized quantity with a tainted name. I've lost count of how many leagues and tournaments that have been organized in this community - that have fallen short, or barely finished on life support.

Nobody shows excitement anymore; the mention of starting a league only brings out nauseated responses. Zandronum might have had the biggest clan scene at one point, but it broke apart. Private ctf is - in my opinion, a joke now. People don't care if a person sits on the bench the entire priv, they just want the strongest players and the easiest win. (this irritates me somewhat, I like to see everyone play at least one round now and then.)

I'm sure some people share the same view with me, others maybe not so much. I wanted to see zandronum booming with a competitive community, but one failed attempt after another has only left a tainted name for this port when it comes to anything competitive. I greatly appreciate people like Dragon and Soul who, together, have always gone above and beyond the call of duty to try and create a more active competitive scene, but the players would always trickle out mid way-near the end of the season and it would all go to shit.

There's simply not enough motivation for people to improve their game here. If there was we'd be seeing more dm, duels, and privs & pub ctf. No one new is coming in, and most importantly: all the dedicated players are on Odamex right now.

I think the reason why people are focusing on odamex is because it's away from all the baggage this port carries with it. It's more condensed and reliable and everyone is looking for a challenge. People who really want to play competitive will know where to go, that simple. As far as mechanical game-play goes, I personally find Odamex on a whole higher tier than Zandronum; games aren't decided by someones internet connection.

Odamex is Odamex. It's a good port, don't get me wrong, but it has a lot of issues that still sets it back in comparison to Zandronum's capability. But people look past those just to have some good fun because of the netcode, which is an amazing one. I might add that Odamex is only active when a league happens, really, but I like Soul's idea on scheduled privs so it will thrive on.

In the case of someone's internet connection sucking and losing the game, there are still some bugs in Oda which make it so you don't kill the guy and you lost the game. While playing with my team, I've always heard Dragon saying "But I shot him, it should've killed him" or "I walked over that? Ah ok, oda" or something between those lines. And it happened to me too. Oda is still pretty flawed for what it is, but if those bugs would've been fixed then it would be the main competitive port, IMO.

I dunno about excitement. Dragon's tournament was flawed, yes, but it was fun nonetheless. And I heard they fixed the main issue, so it will be alright. The next one might bring some more "competition" to zandronum. And yes, priv ctf is pretty much a joke at that. I dunno about others but I am excited for Dragon's tournament, but only if my ISP would fix this lag.

(I dunno if we should move this discussion else where?)

[Samurai]

Yeah! get the hell off our thread! *shakes fist*

But what I would like to agree with is the fact Tor brought up regarding Priv CTF games where some poor player will sit for an hour waiting to be picked, yet other, maybe more skilled players are picked every time. This particular one really irritates me.

I know people want to highest quality games as possible, and people will say that they should be playing Pub CTF if they want to get better, but how are people supposed to improve if they sit and watch these players play game after game if they are constantly denied the opportunity to play with them? The only opportunity some people seem to get is the first 1 or 2 games where they help start a priv game up and are then forgotten about to sit on the sidelines. The few times I get to cap I try to mix things up and pick players that haven't played rather than the usual same players, and to be fair there are some other players I've seen who share that mentality (Dragon, Tor, Shane and Metal come to mind).

I think more should be done to keep the newer players who want to play in priv around, rather than leaving them to spectate every single game, as they will soon lose interest and as said a few posts above, play some other mod on Zandro. In the end we'll just end up with decaying veterans with no new blood to keep the competitive community going.

[John Zombie]

The problem is that the usual benchwarmers that never get picked aren't "new" but being around for years and showing no signs of improvement whatsoever despite that *cough* AO and dastan *cough*
I wouldn't mind giving a chance to *real* newcomers, but I'd rather not stick with the same old players which guarantee an almost certain loss to whatever team they get picked in.

[The Toxic Avenger]

I could split this off to its own thread if you guys like. Anyone want me to?

EDIT: Split it and gave it its own independent thread. Have fun!

[Torvald]

Decay's right, this thread should probably be on it's own, and not in a clan section. Bones did bring up some good points too. As for the Oda bug crash, that definitely isn't good, but I was more specifically focused on net play and how I felt when I was playing. Obviously it's not the same for others which sucks.


The biggest problem with doom is that it's not freeware. Imagine what kind of activity it would get if was. I know we can do little things around here to try and perk up the activity, or make it more enjoyable, but honestly I think it's just a dying breed and the amount of effort needed to really change things around would outweigh the results; too much effort, not enough reward. Like Bones said, people have school or work most of the time, so there's not going to be the big incentive to dedicate time for things like this.

[Watermelon]

I wonder if Wumbo will really live after the WDL as a clan, but seeing the competition has died here on Zan, it'll probably be an Oda clan.

It won't. I don't know who started this rumor, but let me bust it: WUMBO won't happen, it's going to die at the end of the finals this week after I battle Zakken's team (win or lose).

[Ru5tK1ng]

@Torvald

rofl, My name is Rust not Bones.


I will echo what JZ said regarding some of the long term bench warmers. There are several players that have been around for quite a long time in the PrivCTF scene. Despite their long tenure, they show no signs of change either in their behavior or skill. Yes, I would agree giving the new guys a chance is a good idea and makes the environment more welcoming. However, the guys who are still terrible after playing for over 2 years get no sympathy. Personally I haven't been able to play priv as much as I used to and I try to enjoy what little play time I manage to get. I'd rather not ruin my fun by having my team tank due to a lifelong bench warmer(s) instead of picking solid players in order to have a good match.

@IDE

This is true, whenever IDL's off season occurred during the Oda years, the port went quiet again until the league started. The only things that generated activity were random privs, nitro and duel tournaments (ran by me ofc). I understand a chunk of compet players are flocking to Oda for the WDL, netcode, and other features, but lets not employ deceptive hype. There isn't any massive tide change occurring and things are still the same as they have always been (see my first post regarding what those things are). If anything, this shows that players are looking for something beyond the random duels and exhibition CTF matches (in other words players aren't as dead as everyone is claiming).

[Torvald]

@Torvald

rofl, My name is Rust not Bones.

OH! Just realized rofl, been one of those weeks. Sorry about that.

[FateLord]

Even though people do benchwarm or whatever, I wouldn't bash them just because of them. I think we need a little bit of the benchwarmers, I was a mostly bench for a while and I still do bench priv games. I do get along with most of the players as one too. Also, just because Zandronum isn't the top of the trends for 2015, who says it won't be in 2016? 17?

To keep around players like Alien, Dastan, or me wouldn't be harmful because I remember starting priv with them all the time when I was in TE. We started some good games. They may not show signs of improvement, but they may in the future, who knows? I know Alien is but 17 years old so in no way is he a mature adult.

And Zandronum may return some day. I remember in 2011 the "old days" died off. But I also remember competition taking off a little bit in the Summer of 2012. Maybe in the next 2 years we'll be seeing priv's daily. We could be heading for one of the biggest "booms" in the community.

[Watermelon]

To keep around players like Alien, Dastan, or me wouldn't be harmful...

Dastan got extremely racial and trolly before he finally vanished. He'd shit talk people in priv and PM bomb people on IRC (including myself) when he wasn't given attention. Now while this is okay because you can just /ignore, Dastan would ignore-evade...

AlienOverlord admitted to making hacks for BOMF, Danzoa (and whoever else), contributed terrible code in the past (which was removed luckily), pisses everyone off, IIRC he said he wouldn't mind seeing random girls in his school die or something like that, and likely other things that haven't seen the light of day.


Sorry but these players are harmful to keep around.


EDIT: I don't have any problems with you though.

[John Zombie]

They may not show signs of improvement, but they may in the future, who knows? I know Alien is but 17 years old so in no way is he a mature adult.

Sorry but... no fucking way. This game has a pretty steep learning curve compared to other games(e.g. almost absent verticality, simple gameplay), and one should show improvement in a matter of months, given enough dedication.
When, like his case, one plays on a daily basis FOR YEARS and still stays at rock-bottom level, he should probably consider moving to something else which fits him better.
Bottom line is, sure people like him are free to stay, but shouldn't complain if no one would touch them with a 10 foot pole :)

[Ru5tK1ng]

I will admit it was a bit harsh to bash all guys who bench warm, but it is true that a good chunk of them are toxic players. The antics of Dastan as listed above should not have to be tolerated and I don't need to elaborate about capo either. There are players who have basically reached their peak and are still pretty damn lousy at CTF. The life long bench warmers we DON'T want are those who are not only shitty at the game, but are shitty people as well. These types of people are the ones that cause problems for everyone in the server and at times they do it deliberately. This is the kind of combination of traits no one wants around. I have seen quite a number of players over the years put in a decent amount of effort into improving themselves, and it showed. Sure, they may not be Stallion, Jenova, Nostar or Whiteboy, but they can play competently enough to where the game is still enjoyable regardless of win or lose. However, the ones with shitty skills and toxic personalities should not be surprised when they sit on the hard wooden seat all day long.

[mifu]

But what I would like to agree with is the fact Tor brought up regarding Priv CTF games where some poor player will sit for an hour waiting to be picked, yet other, maybe more skilled players are picked every time. This particular one really irritates me.

I know people want to highest quality games as possible, and people will say that they should be playing Pub CTF if they want to get better, but how are people supposed to improve if they sit and watch these players play game after game if they are constantly denied the opportunity to play with them? The only opportunity some people seem to get is the first 1 or 2 games where they help start a priv game up and are then forgotten about to sit on the sidelines. The few times I get to cap I try to mix things up and pick players that haven't played rather than the usual same players, and to be fair there are some other players I've seen who share that mentality (Dragon, Tor, Shane and Metal come to mind).

I think more should be done to keep the newer players who want to play in priv around, rather than leaving them to spectate every single game, as they will soon lose interest and as said a few posts above, play some other mod on Zandro. In the end we'll just end up with decaying veterans with no new blood to keep the competitive community going.

I agree with this. Infact I used to say this all the time, to only get greeted with the response "You do not know what you are talking about" or some other responses.

I used to enjoy CTF a lot back then but with priv, due to my terribad ping, all I did was sit on the side lines. If people are just not going to get picked all the time, its granted that they will leave and move to something else. Its not all bad though, newcomers should really get a chance at playing. As for the unwanted folks, well they can stay out if they cause the game to be shit. I wouldent pick them myself.

Also, its not a bad idea for some new content as well or play different ctf map packs in a priv (good ones though). I know there is a standard, however granted that some people if they play the same thing over and over, they wont stay for long.

Also CTF is not the only gamemode out there, even though its the perfered one. Mixing it up will also attract other players as well and should keep things fun a little bit more.

[HumanBones]

Yes I kept wondering if I had actually replied to this thread in one of my drunken stupors and I just forgot about it... I'm glad that isn't the case!!

I'm too lazy to quote multiple posts so hopefully everyone can follow along as my brain spits out replies in random order;

The idea that Odamex has "borrowed" players isn't really a valid argument anymore only because frankly nobody plays ZDaemon anymore, and there isn't currently anything with the same level of competition as the WDL happening on Zandronum. In the IDL seasons on Odamex I would say that we could use that argument, but the same could honestly be said about Zandronum. Nobody started on Zandronum because it is, in essence, a newer port than Odamex. I just think it's a silly technicality - everyone should play every port that they enjoy playing, and it's like.. what people say about Odamex is exactly what people used to say about Skulltag way back in the day. It's like they deny that people actually play the port, so they say it doesn't really have a playerbase. These viewpoints are old and tired and I wish we could just move on from it.

As far as the competitive scene goes, there is still a very healthy scene here on Zandronum. Quite a few people signed up for the last IDL season. The things I found troubling were the lack of dedication and just the overall hostile environment. Now don't get me wrong, all the doom communities have always been a little hostile - but some of the things the IDL went through over the last couple years were just unbearable. I'm talking really petty, stupid stuff that makes you not want to even play. It made me not want to run the IDL here, even though I do believe people deserve to have a league to play in.

I bring this up because the WDL community, to me, feels a lot like the early seasons of the IDL where there really wasn't a lot of fighting and everyone more or less got along with each other. We just fucked around and played some good games. This isn't a "pro-this port" or "pro-that port" comment, because I don't give a shit what port we play on. I think the overall competitive scene here needs an attitude adjustment. People are doing this to themselves, and it's not rocket science. In order to have a booming community you need to cultivate new players and keep them around, and nobody wants to put up with the same old "elitist" attitude that a lot of players have. I'd happily run a league full of people who want to be there, but in my recent experience that hasn't been the case.

[Kara Kurt]

The idea that Odamex has "borrowed" players isn't really a valid argument anymore only because frankly nobody plays ZDaemon anymore

In fact, they somewhat does and don't because 1) ZD is competitively dead, 2) it's the port with the most regular PubCTF server with certainly a lot of noobs or non-dedicated compete players.