[split] Lost Faction (Competition discussion)

[FateLord]

To keep around players like Alien, Dastan, or me wouldn't be harmful...

Dastan got extremely racial and trolly before he finally vanished. He'd shit talk people in priv and PM bomb people on IRC (including myself) when he wasn't given attention. Now while this is okay because you can just /ignore, Dastan would ignore-evade...

Ah, well I didn't know much of this part. Dastan was just annoying before I took my exam break. I didn't know he became much of a shit talker. So this is bad on my part.

[Ru5tK1ng]

The idea that Odamex has "borrowed" players isn't really a valid argument anymore only because frankly nobody plays ZDaemon anymore, and there isn't currently anything with the same level of competition as the WDL happening on Zandronum.

Bzzzt. Wrong. As kurt said, there has always been a strong pub scene and people still surprisingly do play. It might not be as much as it was ten years ago when we were there, but it should be given a bit more credit. If you are talking strictly about competition, ZD had a pretty tight nit priv scene up until around December/January where people kinda fell out or moved on. Where are those players at this point in time? Some stayed and some are playing in the WDL a few in Zan. Borrowed players is a valid argument. Why? Because 95% of the players weren't natively apart of Oda's community and they just came and went as seasons ended. That's the point I was making in my post in response to some people hype about Oda being the Mecca of Multiplayer. Not trying to take away what the Port has accomplished, but just stating the truth.

In the IDL seasons on Odamex I would say that we could use that argument, but the same could honestly be said about Zandronum. Nobody started on Zandronum because it is, in essence, a newer port than Odamex.

That's grasping for straws and you know it.

But I will agree with the rest of your posts. However, as time goes on, it seems less likely that some of those old mindsets will ever change.

[Zakken]

The "borrowed players" argument is stupid. If somebody plays a port, then this person constitutes part of that port's playerbase. It's simple as that. The fact somebody has a different main port of choice does not make their presence in different ports illegitimate in any shape or form. However, given the current situation, one can clearly see there is something more important than ports at the core of Doom competition.

Priv is seen by many as a place to chill, play the game as you normally would and have fun -- rarely reasons you wouldn't find to play any other game. But for those with a strong competitive drive (which are usually the ones who get the gears rolling in the competitive scene, and aren't scarce either), priv is a place to practice and improve your skills on. And for those people, priv is only fun to play when there is a greater reason behind it, and that greater reason usually translates to CTF tournaments and leagues. One could argue that that is the reason priv came to be in the first place! ZD privs happened at large only during IDL seasons or other large-scale CTF tournaments, and up until now, you rarely saw any Oda privs if there was not an IDL/WDL season in progress. Zandro priv has survived this long without any greater purpose to fuel the players' motivation only because -- you guessed it -- it has the greatest community out of the MP ports. Still, it is just barely still keeping itself together, because interest WILL die out if nothing new and exciting comes up our alley.

"Succeeding at anything comes from motivation." This quote may seem almost bizarre in this community's context, but it definitely still holds true. One thing not everybody is aware of is that the #1 reason why any league or tournament fails or does not succeed satisfactorily comes from the organizer(s)'s lack of effort and dedication, over 80% of the time. Just look back for a second. Why did the IDL die? Primarily because the administration team behaved negatively towards the league itself. Unwilling to hype things up, failing to provide with content to keep everybody informed and interested (such as side-events or stats), and acting as a distant clique from the playerbase contributed to the league's latest downfall. Why did the WDL, IEFL and CTF Tendency succeed? Because the organizers stayed very in touch with the community, kept a lively environment in their lobbies, made sure to generate hype and maintained a positive attitude towards the players and the league itself which, most importantly, naturally wards off nasty drama and does not scare players away from staying involved in the league, aka demotivating the crowd.

The bottom line solution to these problems would be for more positive-thinking players to host tournaments. They don't have to be too innovative. Think less about how you can make your tournament stand out from others, and think more about delivering in every department as an administrator, staying in touch with every player who attends, enjoying what you're doing, dealing with any drama as swiftly and mature as possible, keeping toxic players out without giving them a hundred chances, et cetera. WDL would probably be the most notable place to check out on how to do things right for the most part.

[Ru5tK1ng]

Borrowed players isn't an argument for anything, it's a statement that is fact(I probably should have used another word previously). Oda doesn't pull in brand new players into the community aside from people like nubhat. How many 'I'm new to doom' posts do you see over there? It's the same old bunch that have been playing ZD or ST for the past few years. The point I'm trying to make is for people to be objective when they read some of the WDL plugs and not to buy into the hype. Yes, there are duels, privs and leagues going on, but the amount of competition doesn't touch the levels of the past. Of course, if I' m proven wrong in a year or two then that would be fine and a good thing for the community. However....

As for your priv origins/point comment, I'm fairly certain (about 85% sure) that priv on ZD occurred a lot in the early years of IDL even during off seasons and well into the later seasons on ZD. It wasn't exactly created solely for the purpose of IDL but for other reasons that include:

1. Veteran players who played were master banned
2. People hate DUI and their laggy piece of shit NJ servers
3. Good players wanted to play competitive matches with other good players

But you are right that a lack of a large scale event is a contributing factor the the dip in priv activity.

Why did the IDL die? Primarily because the administration team behaved negatively towards the league itself. Unwilling to hype things up, failing to provide with content to keep everybody informed and interested (such as side-events or stats),

I'm sure it has been stated on record who are primarily responsible for these things (Hint: not me).

and acting as a distant clique from the playerbase.

To be fair, no one (this includes you) came up to us with any well thought out ideas to break away from this old ideology that traces back to the ZD days. The only name that sticks out in this regard was Jenova and even then those suggestions came too late near the end of the season.

Also I wouldn't put Tendency on the same tier as WDL and IEFL. It was essentially glorified priv and no where near the level of a large scale event. But I will agree with that an event's success depends largely on the person(s) in charge.

As for for any other points you made, I can agree on them.

Edit: Usually competitive tournaments finish. I think for the most part the only thing that tank HARD was the TDM thing last year.

[Zocker]

They may not show signs of improvement, but they may in the future, who knows? I know Alien is but 17 years old so in no way is he a mature adult.

Sorry but... no fucking way. This game has a pretty steep learning curve compared to other games(e.g. almost absent verticality, simple gameplay), and one should show improvement in a matter of months, given enough dedication.
When, like his case, one plays on a daily basis FOR YEARS and still stays at rock-bottom level, he should probably consider moving to something else which fits him better.
Bottom line is, sure people like him are free to stay, but shouldn't complain if no one would touch them with a 10 foot pole :)

But not everybody wants to play Doom each day...

There are casual players as well who simply like to join and have some fun. And unfortunately, normal public play doesn't exist any more for these people to get better :/

The thing is that people don't install Zandronum for vanilla/competitive play. It's because they want to play a mod which requires a port (not even a zan specific one).

And while I think that competitive play in doom is awesome and has a great feel, it simply doesn't offer much apart from the usual shooting and scoring. And on top of that, it has a very steep learning curve.

Yes, it's easy to graps the basic elements of the game, know how everything works. But being able to actually compete with good players and know ALL them maps is a very difficult tasks many simply don't want to start just for the sake of having fun.

Yes, some people show dedication, but normally if somebody get punched into their face all the time, he will stop playing anything competitive and come back to the MP of mods which can be fun in their own way and are way easier.

I've been around here in Zan (or Skulltag) since 2009 and the discussion of this topic existed even back then.

in october 2013, I was away from Zan for half a year and after that I just found it hard to get back in again.
And to be honest, it feels like this port has lost its edge. There is no more enthusiasm, no more great projects (man, I remember so many breathtaking wads!).

I remember back in the day when ST version 98d (I think) was announced and they even implemented a count down on the website. Everybody was excited and it was a blast!

(Sorry for these random nostalgic thoughts ^^)

[John Zombie]

I'll try to address a few points

There are casual players as well who simply like to join and have some fun. And unfortunately, normal public play doesn't exist any more for these people to get better :/

Yes, it's easy to graps the basic elements of the game, know how everything works. But being able to actually compete with good players and know ALL them maps is a very difficult tasks many simply don't want to start just for the sake of having fun.

actually public ctf still happens on nj, usually on late afternoons/evenings. That's perfect for people who just want to "have some fun", if someone can't be arsed enough to grasp the basics and learn a few maps then priv definitely isn't for him.

Yes, some people show dedication, but normally if somebody get punched into their face all the time, he will stop playing anything competitive and come back to the MP of mods which can be fun in their own way and are way easier.

Everyone got punched in their faces at the beginning of their "careers", though they didn't get discouraged and kept putting some effort at improving until they reached an acceptable level, rather than giving up(I'd say that's how building skills in everything works, don't expect to go anywhere if you don't put enough dedication in it/you throw in the towel at the first sight of difficulty).
Then there's also the category of players I already mentioned who stay at the same beginner's level no matter for how long they've played, but that's another story.